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Projection onto God

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  • Projection onto God

    This thread was inspired by the following comment:

    Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
    You have repeatedly reminded us (especially Jim) of something you said earlier:

    Originally posted by Jichard
    "Christianity (especially through inheritance from Judaism) applies our familiar, commonsense psychology to God. Hence it attributing to God intentions beliefs, desires, and so on, where those states are similar to those had by humans (ex: jealousy, anger)."
    In this quote, you are basically saying that the biblical God is personal, with all of the traits of personality. I agree that God shares these traits with humans. But there is more than one possible explanation for this commonality. Here are two possibilities among many:
    1) Jichard's explanation(?): the biblical God is purely a projection of the human mind, so God shares some characteristics of human personality
    2) the biblical explanation: God created man in His own image, giving man some characteristics of God's personality

    I have no problem with the claim that some aspects of God are "natural." This is exactly what we should expect if we have been created by God in His own image.
    There's no evidence for explanation 2 and I previously explained some reasons why 1 is a batter explanation than 2. In this thread, I'm going to go over some scientific evidence showing that humans (in this case, I'l be focusing largely on Christians) project onto God, where this projection is often influenced by culture and one's personality. Maybe at some point, someone will be able to muster similar evidence for the claim that God created man in His own image, giving man some characteristics of God's personality, though I highly doubt it.

    "Believers’ estimates of God’s beliefs are more egocentric than estimates of other people’s beliefs"
    http://www.uvm.edu/~pdodds/files/pap...epley2009a.pdf
    "People often reason egocentrically about others’ beliefs, using their own beliefs as an inductive guide. Correlational, experimental, and neuroimaging evidence suggests that people may be even more egocentric when reasoning about a religious agent’s beliefs (e.g., God). In both nationally representative and more local samples, people’s own beliefs on important social and ethical issues were consistently correlated more strongly with estimates of God’s beliefs than with estimates of other people’s beliefs (Studies 1– 4). Manipulating people’s beliefs similarly influenced estimates of God’s beliefs but did not as consistently influence estimates of other people’s beliefs (Studies 5 and 6). A final neuroimaging study demonstrated a clear convergence in neural activity when reasoning about one’s own beliefs and God’s beliefs, but clear divergences when reasoning about another person’s beliefs (Study 7). In particular, reasoning about God’s beliefs activated areas associated with self-referential thinking more so than did reasoning about another person’s beliefs. Believers commonly use inferences about God’s beliefs as a moral compass, but that compass appears especially dependent on one’s own existing beliefs.

    [...]

    The Jewish and Christian traditions state explicitly that God created man in his own image, but believers and nonbelievers alike have long argued that people seem to create God in their own image as well (2–5)."


    How Christians reconcile their personal political views and the teachings of their faith: Projection as a means of dissonance reduction
    http://www.pnas.org/content/109/10/3616.full.pdf
    "The present study explores the dramatic projection of one’s own views onto those of Jesus among conservative and liberal American Christians. In a large-scale survey, the relevant views that each group attributed to a contemporary Jesus differed almost as much as their own views. Despite such dissonance-reducing projection, however, conservatives acknowledged the relevant discrepancy with regard to “fellowship” issues (e.g., taxation to reduce economic inequality and treatment of immigrants) and liberals acknowledged the relevant discrepancy with regard to “morality” issues (e.g., abortion and gay marriage). However, conservatives also claimed that a contemporary Jesus would be even more conservative than themselves on the former issues whereas liberals claimed that Jesus would be even more liberal than themselves on the latter issues."


    Was he happy? Cultural difference in conceptions of Jesus
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...92656610001728
    "In Study 1, we asked Korean and American participants to engage in a free association task with Jesus as a target. Americans associated Jesus with primarily positive connotations (“awesome”) and rarely with negative connotations (“pain”), whereas Koreans associated Jesus with both positive and negative connotations. In Study 2, we asked Korean and American participants to rate Jesus and themselves using personality and well-being scales. Americans rated both Jesus and themselves as more extraverted, agreeable, conscientious, open, and happier than did Koreans."


    Correlation of Self-Perception and Image of Christ Using the Five-Factor Model of Personality
    http://download.springer.com/static/...a4d744cc317961
    "In this study, the relationship between one’s self-perception of personality and his or her image of Jesus Christ was studied within a sample of 153 undergraduate students, of whom 130 were Christian and 23 were non-Christian; 23 Protestant pastors; and 55 Protestant laypersons. Using two forms of the NEO Personality Inventory (Self and Observer), ratings of the Big Five personality factors were obtained for both self and Jesus Christ. Results indicated significant positive correlations between ratings of self and Christ in each of the subgroups of Christian individuals. No correlations were found between ratings of self and Christ for the non-Christians. A repeated-measures ANOVA revealed significant differing correlations between groups. Christian persons may project perceptions onto Christ or attempt to mold themselves in a way more consistent with their own images of Christ."


    Nearer My God to Thee: Self–God Overlap and Believers’ Relationships with God.
    http://www.academia.edu/3257401/Near...ships_with_God
    "Three studies, using two community samples (ns = 39 and 78) and a university student sampleof Christian believers in God (n= 76), found that more religious people report greater self– other overlap with God.

    [...]

    When it came to how much of participants’ descriptions of God overlapped with their views of the self (i.e., God–percentage of overlap), evangelicals also believed that a greater percentage of the adjectives ascribed to God could also be used to describe themselves. However, when evangelicals considered which traits they had that they also ascribed to God, their lists were no more positive or negative than non-evangelicals’. Evangelicals simply claimed a bigger piece of God for themselves, and that piece included both good and bad at roughly the same ratio found in the smaller piece of God claimed by atheists.

    Thus, from this first dataset, we have evidence that believers show self–God overlap, as measured through adjective checklists. Furthermore, we have a clear answer to our question about whether believers and non-believers differ in terms of self–God overlap. Believers clearly see their self descriptions as overlapping more with their conceptions of God than non-believers do, and, in fact, using this particular set of adjectives, believers saw almost everything positive about themselves as overlapping with God—and the overlap on positive self traits was greater than the overlap they saw with their mothers (a number which was very similar to what atheists reported about their mothers)."


    Creating God in Our Image: The Role of Self-Projection in Estimating God’s Beliefs
    http://www.alexareynolds.com/MastersThesis.pdf
    Last edited by Jichard; 11-01-2015, 04:43 PM.
    "Instead, we argue, it is necessary to shift the debate from the subject under consideration, instead exposing to public scrutiny the tactics they [denialists] employ and identifying them publicly for what they are."

  • #2
    200.gif
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      [ATTACH=CONFIG]11033[/ATTACH]
      As usual, you and your ilk have nothing worthwhile to say when it comes to science.

      Troll somewhere else. Maybe on one of those threads where you can deny AGW again because you think Dyson told you to.
      "Instead, we argue, it is necessary to shift the debate from the subject under consideration, instead exposing to public scrutiny the tactics they [denialists] employ and identifying them publicly for what they are."

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jichard View Post
        As usual, you and your ilk have nothing worthwhile to say when it comes to science.

        Troll somewhere else. Maybe on one of those threads where you can deny AGW again because you think Dyson told you to.
        He's not trolling, he's posting how he sincerely feels about the idiocy you just posted. Its laughable.
        A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
        George Bernard Shaw

        Comment


        • #5
          I came to this realization a while ago. Along with the psychological, sociological, and neurological evidence, we have historical evidence. What believers of any given religion think their god wants differs from era to era and from place to place. You say this phenomenon is projection, I would go further and call it self-deification. It's no leap at all to get from moral grandstanding based on what a god wants to pharaonic decree.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
            He's not trolling, he's posting how he sincerely feels about the idiocy you just posted. Its laughable.
            It was clearly trolling and nothing sincere in his post. Your response is laughable.If you have anything constructive to add please do.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              [ATTACH=CONFIG]11033[/ATTACH]
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                mirror-mirror.jpg
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  It was clearly trolling and nothing sincere in his post.
                  Oh baloney Frank. Jichard posted a bunch of survey "studies" from typical ignorant masses who think God wrote the Bible yesterday just for them. It's of little surprise that people foist their opinions onto God when a majority think that God is their personal ATM. They have little knowledge of church history or the doctrines the church has defended for centuries. I'd love to have the time and give-a-crap to go through each of those "studies" and show where each is just plain crap, but I'd rather organize my fast food straw collection, which can't be any less useless than the moronic crap of those surveys.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    Oh baloney Frank. Jichard posted a bunch of survey "studies" from typical ignorant masses who think God wrote the Bible yesterday just for them. It's of little surprise that people foist their opinions onto God when a majority think that God is their personal ATM. They have little knowledge of church history or the doctrines the church has defended for centuries. I'd love to have the time and give-a-crap to go through each of those "studies" and show where each is just plain crap, but I'd rather organize my fast food straw collection, which can't be any less useless than the moronic crap of those surveys.
                    Hit a little too close to home?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      Oh baloney Frank. Jichard posted a bunch of survey "studies" from typical ignorant masses who think God wrote the Bible yesterday just for them.
                      Once again, you made false claims about scientific studies you hadn't read. For example, the first paper listed isn't just a "survey "stud[y]"". Instead, said paper includes a priming study and an imaging study.

                      At some point, Bill, you actually need to read the things you comment on. And your response to this scientific research dislays the flaws you complain about elsewhere:
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      Now, do you care to address the article I cited, or are you too busy trying to discredit people who disagree with your pat answers?

                      [..] You saw someone post something that bucked the current research, and immediately went into attack dog mode. That's not how science is done. It's why I loved discussing things like this with Sylas before the crash, He was FAR more reasonable than you could ever hope to be on the topic.

                      It's of little surprise that people foist their opinions onto God when a majority think that God is their personal ATM. They have little knowledge of church history or the doctrines the church has defended for centuries.
                      First, present some actual evidence for your claim.

                      Second, what reason do we have for thinking that church leaders (and people who wrote the biblican texts) were'nt simply projecting onto God as well? Why the special pleading for them?

                      I'd love to have the time and give-a-crap to go through each of those "studies" and show where each is just plain crap, but I'd rather organize my fast food straw collection, which can't be any less useless than the moronic crap of those surveys.
                      So, as expected, you disregarded the studies without reading them, since the studies were inconvenient for your ideological position. Hypocrite says:
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      Now, do you care to address the article I cited, or are you too busy trying to discredit people who disagree with your pat answers?

                      [..] You saw someone post something that bucked the current research, and immediately went into attack dog mode. That's not how science is done. It's why I loved discussing things like this with Sylas before the crash, He was FAR more reasonable than you could ever hope to be on the topic.
                      "Instead, we argue, it is necessary to shift the debate from the subject under consideration, instead exposing to public scrutiny the tactics they [denialists] employ and identifying them publicly for what they are."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                        He's not trolling, he's posting how he sincerely feels about the idiocy you just posted. Its laughable.
                        No, he's just trolling and being a hypocrite.

                        When he posts press pieces about scientific research, he expects people to address the research and not "attack" the research:
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        Now, do you care to address the article I cited, or are you too busy trying to discredit people who disagree with your pat answers?

                        [...]

                        You saw someone post something that bucked the current research, and immediately went into attack dog mode. That's not how science is done. It's why I loved discussing things like this with Sylas before the crash, He was FAR more reasonable than you could ever hope to be on the topic.
                        Yet when he's presented scientific research, he does not address the research and instead simply attacks the research without reading it:
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        Jichard posted a bunch of survey "studies" from typical ignorant masses who think God wrote the Bible yesterday just for them.
                        [...]
                        I'd love to have the time and give-a-crap to go through each of those "studies" and show where each is just plain crap, but I'd rather organize my fast food straw collection, which can't be any less useless than the moronic crap of those surveys.
                        That's one way to tell someone is trolling: when they blatantly violate the very guidelines they hold other people to. Another way to tell their trolling is when they post silly images, as opposed to addressing the substance of what they said. Bill did that, and Bill is clearly trolling.
                        "Instead, we argue, it is necessary to shift the debate from the subject under consideration, instead exposing to public scrutiny the tactics they [denialists] employ and identifying them publicly for what they are."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jichard View Post
                          Once again, you made false claims about scientific studies you hadn't read. For example, the first paper listed isn't just a "survey "stud[y]"". Instead, said paper includes a priming study and an imaging study.
                          Of a whopping 18 people... and it's an absolute shock... SHOCK I tell you... that Americans were found generally egocentric when it comes to what they think God's standards are...


                          First, present some actual evidence for your claim.
                          http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u...wledge-survey/


                          Second, what reason do we have for thinking that church leaders (and people who wrote the biblican texts) were'nt simply projecting onto God as well? Why the special pleading for them?
                          That's another subject. For a Christian, the scriptures are God's Word, and no matter what we WANT to believe, that Word SHOULD come before our belief on what God "should" say on the subjects.


                          So, as expected, you disregarded the studies without reading them, since the studies were inconvenient for your ideological position.
                          No, moron. I read the ones I could access for free, but I don't have the time to go through them with a fine tooth comb to comment on why they aren't as concrete as you claim, nor your flawed thinking that they somehow prove that man made up God.
                          Last edited by Bill the Cat; 11-03-2015, 09:16 AM.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          - Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Bill reminds me of people who claim advertising may work on everyone else, but it doesn't work on them. His arguments thus far are "you're wrong but I don't have time to tell you why" and "no true Christian".

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                              Bill reminds me of people who claim advertising may work on everyone else, but it doesn't work on them. His arguments thus far are "you're wrong but I don't have time to tell you why" and "no true Christian".
                              You're so clever...
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment

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