Olivet Discourse Discussion

[Ishmael]

Here I hope to discus the Olivet Discourse with some light debate. I will be using primarily Mark 13, but you are welcome to bring in the other Gospel accounts of our Lord’s prophecy.

NOTE: Please only include passages that are not part of the Olivet sermon when inclusion of those passages is germane to understanding your point about the Olivet Discourse.

My initial thoughts are drawn from RC Sproul's book:
The Last Days According to Jesus

Some of the language in the Olivet Discourse is ordinary and some is figurative.

I believe that the prophecy of the destruction of the Temple and the destruction of Jerusalem is meant to be interpreted as ordinary (literal).

However:
I believe these verses are to be taken as figurative:
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

[Darth Xena]

Way to go Cal!! Have fun!

[Ishmael]

:blush:

[efta777]

However:
I believe these verses are to be taken as figurative:
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

It's hard not to look at these verses figuratively when you look back into the O.T. and see how often this EXACT same imagery is used when describing God's judgement upon a specific group of people.

[Etcetera]

Calvinist:

Greetings in the name of the risen one! :joy:

I myself am very interested in discussing the Olivet discourse and its parallels in other parts of the New Testament (and even, on occasion, outside it). I am of the persuasion that certain words of Jesus had a profound impact on the apostolic authors (one can find the sermon on the mount in James, for instance), and Olivet probably had the biggest impact of all.

My question to you, then, considering the following statement...:

NOTE: Please only include passages that are not part of the Olivet sermon when inclusion of those passages is germane to understanding your point about the Olivet Discourse.

...is: Would this be the proper forum? Or should I create my own? I would definitely be bringing in whole passages from outside of Olivet, the whole point being to identify and interpret the conscious parallels in light of the original performance outside Jerusalem. But, if you wish only to interpret Olivet verse by verse without so much outside influence, then I would hate to clutter up your original intention. Your call.

Glory to God.

Etcetera.

:juggle:

[Ishmael]

Other passages which help to understand and interpret the Discourse are fine.

[Athanasius]

Etcetera:
I myself am very interested in discussing the Olivet discourse and its parallels in other parts of the New Testament (and even, on occasion, outside it).

Hi Etcetera, I think it is very helpful to look at the Olivet discourse accounts themselves in parallel, phrase by phrase. I just mentioned this on another thread, but check out http://www.thingstocome.org/olivet.htm . You can ignore our futurist commentary, if you like (but I hope that you will read it).

[Etcetera]

Athanasius:

Greetings in the name of the risen one.

I think it is very helpful to look at the Olivet discourse accounts themselves in parallel, phrase by phrase.

Thank you for the link. I have, however, already compiled on my own hard drive a synopsis of Olivet in parallel columns much like the one to which you linked. But I included the many other obvious parallels, such as those in Luke 17, which that chart omits.

Jesus did not just out of the blue give a talk one fine afternoon on the end of the age. He spoke about it often, in many different forms and in various venues. Olivet in isolation, I think, can easily be read to support nearly any view. It is the clear parallels that lend essential aid to its interpretation.

I hope, at some point in the pre-apocalyptic future, to post some of those parallels on this thread and see what kind of interpretation they suggest for Olivet.

A caveat, however, is in order. Anyone who can, like your chart, look at Luke 21:20-21 and Mark 13:14 side by side and deny that they are parallel, Luke exchanging the apocalyptic imagery for its concrete meaning for the benefit of his gentile readers, is not going to be interested in the parallel passages that I will give. And, incidentally, I have yet to find the theological system that explains the many parallels that I see between Olivet and the rest of the apostolic writings. This will be "pre-theology," if you will, the theology being coaxed out of the text instead of forced onto the text. I myself have no end-all answers to the very questions that I may raise, and that is all right. I comfort myself with the knowledge that the finest minds in Christendom have applied themselves to these problems and have yet to explain each and every applicable verse within their various systems.

:smile:

Cheers! :cheers:

Etcetera.

Post-script: I have read a few of your posts on TheologyWeb, and profoundly agree with you on a number of points. I look forward to reading more.

[Athanasius]

I comfort myself with the knowledge that the finest minds in Christendom have applied themselves to these problems and have yet to explain each and every applicable verse within their various systems.

Each system has it's strong and weak points, as well as it's puzzles. It is comforting to know that all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ and clear to Him, whether we comprehend them with our limited intellects and perspectives or not.

Thank you for the link. I have, however, already compiled on my own hard drive a synopsis of Olivet in parallel columns much like the one to which you linked. But I included the many other obvious parallels, such as those in Luke 17, which that chart omits.

Then please forgive my presumption; it sounds as though you have already studied this a good deal. Jesus often spoke of the end of the age, so I'm sure it would be very helpful to list the other related passages in parallel. I look forward to hearing some of the conclusions you have come to as a result of this.

Our aim with the article I pointed you to was more narrow - it was to determine more precisely the nature of the Olivet Discourse through phrase-by-phrase comparison. The conclusions we came to are based on a hermeneutic that assumes the doctrine of inerrancy.

Out of curiosity, do you believe that Luke 17 owes it's origin to the Olivet discourse, or do you see this as a different discourse?

[Etcetera]

Athanasius:

The conclusions we came to are based on a hermeneutic that assumes the doctrine of inerrancy.

I myself do not assume inerrancy, though I have yet to find any Olivet parallel that has to be in error. Nothing of what I intend to say will contradict inerrancy.

Out of curiosity, do you believe that Luke 17 owes its origin to the Olivet discourse, or do you see this as a different discourse?

Probably a different occasion. It is my view that Jesus distilled his teachings on the end of the age on Olivet, but that he taught about it on many other occasions. I am not a stickler for every gospel saying being spoken in exactly its given context; nevertheless, no issue that I plan to bring up will make its context seem out of place. The gospel writers, I think, can be trusted to put these teachings together in a way faithful to what Jesus meant.

Cheers. :cheers:

Etcetera.

[Athanasius]

Actually, "assume" was a poor choice of words on my part, because this might give the impression that I adopted inerrancy merely as an axiom for the sake of reasoning, when in fact I believe it.

[Etcetera]

1.

This is the first of a series of posts intended to point out those passages amongst the apostolic writings that are parallel to passages within the Olivet discourse. This first post, I hope, will not be extremely controversial. The real controversy will come later.

The thesis here is that Olivet is not a stand-alone lecture. I believe that Jesus did, in fact, at some point sit atop Olivet and share his predictions for the end of the age and the fate of Jerusalem, especially the temple, with (at least) his closest disciples. Nevertheless, Olivet is not a unique set of predictions that Jesus gave only once. Rather, it is a distillation of the Lord's teachings on the end of the age, a topic on which he spoke frequently throughout his ministry.

Both Matthew and Luke have scattered passages that parallel Olivet throughout their gospels. Feel free to add to this list! No passage quoted below comes from the actual Olivet discourse, but the part of Olivet that each parallels is marked in parentheses within the reference:

Matthew 10:17-18 (parallel to Mark 13:9 and Luke 21:12-13): But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for my sake, as a testimony to them and to the gentiles.

Matthew 10:19-22 (parallel to Mark 13:11-13 and Luke 21:14-19): But, when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak, for it is not you who speak, but the spirit of your father who speaks in you. Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.”

Luke 12:11-12 (parallel to Mark 13:11-13 and Luke 21:14-19): And, when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not become anxious about how or what you should speak in your defense, or what you should say. For the holy spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.

Luke 17:31 (parallel to Matthew 24:17-18 and Mark 13:15-16): In that day he who is on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back.

Luke 17:23-24 (parallel to Matthew 24:26-27): And they will say to you: "Look here!" or: "Look there!" Do not go after them or follow them. For, as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the son of man will be in his day.

Luke 17:37 (parallel to Matthew 24:28): And they answered and said to him: “Where, Lord?” So he said to them: “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Luke 17:26-36 (parallel to Matthew 24:37-41): And, as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the son of man. They ate, they drank, they married wives, and they were given in marriage until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise, as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so will it be in the day when the son of man is revealed. Remember Lot’s wife. Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left. Two women will be grinding together; the one will be taken and the other left. Two men will be in the field; the one will be taken and the other left.

Luke 12:39-40 (parallel to Matthew 24:43): And be sure of this, that, if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into. You, too, be ready. For the son of man is coming at an hour that you do not expect.

Luke 19:41-44 (roughly parallel to Luke 21:20, 24): And, when he approached, he saw the city and wept over it, saying: “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. For the days shall come upon you when your enemies will throw up an embankment before you, and surround you, and hem you in on every side, and will level you to the ground, and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."

Luke 12:35-37 (roughly parallel to Matthew 24:45-51, with a hint of Matthew 25:1-13): Let your loins be girded, and your lamps alight. And be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from a wedding feast, so that they may immediately open to him when he comes and knocks. Blessed are those slaves whom the master shall find on the alert when he comes. Truly I say to you, he will gird himself and have them recline at table, and will come up and wait on them. Whether he comes in the second watch, or even in the third, and finds them so, blessed are they.

Luke 12:41-48 (parallel to Matthew 24:45-51): Then Peter said to him: “Lord, do you speak this parable only to us, or to all people?” And the Lord said: “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. But if that servant says in his heart: ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master’s will and did not prepare himself or do according to his will shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.”

What ought to be noticed is just how much parallel material is found outside the Olivet discourse. The above catena amounts to more verses than Mark's version of Olivet. Notice also how Luke at two points offers the same or similar material twice (see Luke 12:11-12 and 19:41-44 above). Luke, at least, gives the distinct impression that Jesus liked to speak on the topic of the end of the age, and frequently did so. And we have not even glanced at those passages that clearly touch upon the same topic but are not directly represented in Olivet. Some of those will come in the next post.

Etcetera.

:read:

[Etcetera]

2.

I stated in my previous post that Jesus frequently spoke of the end of the age. What follow are gospel passages in which that very term is used (though there are many more that discuss that topic without actually using that term):

Matthew 13:24-29: Another parable he put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field, but, while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But, when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him: ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them: ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him: ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said: ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers: “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:36-43: Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying: “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the son of man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore, as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The son of man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Matthew 13:47-50: Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:3 (parallel with Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7): Now, as he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” [What follows is the Olivet discourse.]

Matthew 28:20: ...and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

One could easily pursue the phrases "wailing and gnashing of teeth" and "gather" and thus find other passages on that topic. It ought to be noticed that Matthew is the gospel in which the exact phrase "end of the age" is found.

Jesus also, however, discusses this age and the age to come in more general terms that contrast the two ages, and imply an "end of the age" between them:

Matthew 12:32: And, whoever shall speak a word against the son of man, it shall be forgiven him. But, whoever shall speak against the holy spirit, it shall be forgiven him neither in this age nor in the age to come.

Mark 3:28-29: Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.

Matthew 13:22: And the one on whom see was sown among thorns, this the man who hears the word, and the worry of the age and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Mark 4:19: ...and the worries of the age, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Mark 10:29-30: Jesus said: “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands for my sake and for the sake of the gospel that shall not receive now in this time a hundredfold in houses, and brothers, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come life eternal.”

Luke 18:29-30: And he said to them: “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house, or wife, or brothers, or parents, or children for the sake of the kingdom of God that shall not receive many times as much at this time, and in the age to come life eternal.”

Luke 20:34-35: The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those counted worthy to have part in that age, and the resurrection from among the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for neither can they die any more, for they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Note that the phrase "an eternal sin" in Mark 3:29 actually uses the Greek word for "age."

All of these passages indicate a contrast between the two ages, implying that a change of some sort is to happen at the changeover between them, that is, at the "end of the age." Talk of the ages and the events surrounding the transition between them is perfectly at home throughout Jesus' ministry.

Etcetera.

:read:

[Etcetera]

3.

Time for some controversy....

I regard the following passages...:

Matthew 16:27-28: For the son of man will come in the glory of his father with his angels, and then he will reward each according to his works. Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 8:38-9:1: “For, whoever is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the son of man also will be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his father with the holy angels.” And he said to them: “Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God having come with power.”

Luke 9:26-27: For, whoever is ashamed of me and my words, of him the son of man will be ashamed when he comes in his own glory, and in that of his father, and of the holy angels. But, I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.

...as also parallel to Olivet...:

Matthew 24:30-31: Then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:26-27: Then they will see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send his angels and gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Luke 21:27: Then they will see the son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

...including the clear time reference: "Some standing here will not taste death until...."

I have never seen the application of those former three passages to the transfiguration or resurrection work out properly. If we cannot recognize that the former three are parallel to the latter three, then what business have we seeking unmarked (that is, sans an "it is written" or what-not) parallels in other parts of the Bible? If there is no allusion here, then are there any allusions in the Bible at all?

Etcetera.

:read:

[Darth Xena]

Dear Etcetara:

I agree with you that those passages are parallel, but not simply because of the stress that you have laid upon similar terminology. Similarity of terminology does not always indicate exact identification of referent. That is an asummption brought to the text. The main reason why I agree that these passages are parallel is because NOT only is there similarity of terminology, but also a corresponding time marker that unequivocably places them together (i.e. "this generation" with "there are some standing here who will not taste death") without any clear time markes anywhere else that would controvert this.

[Athanasius]

Etcetera:
I have never seen the application of those former three passages to the transfiguration or resurrection work out properly. If we cannot recognize that the former three are parallel to the latter three, then what business have we seeking unmarked (that is, sans an "it is written" or what-not) parallels in other parts of the Bible? If there is no allusion here, then are there any allusions in the Bible at all?

Hi Etcetera,



While I would agree with you that there is a parallel between these two sayings of Jesus, I think that the parallel lasts only through Luke 9:26. Here's why:

One of the keys to understanding how to group the verses in the “not taste death” accounts and the transfiguration accounts that follow lies in the conjunctions which precede them. Notice that in Luke 9, verses 24 - 26 begin with "for," meaning that they go with the preceding verses. The idea behind it is, "take up your cross and follow me, because if you try to gain your life, you will lose it when I return and judge you." Verse 27, however, begins with 'but I tell" (lego de), meaning that it stands in contrast to the preceding verses.

Why would Jesus have begun verse 27 with the words "lego de" (but I tell) if seeing the kingdom of God during the disciple's lifetimes was synonymous with His second parousia? If that were the case, it would have been much more logical for him to have begun that verse with 'for,' as in the preceding verses. Rather, he contrasted it with the preceding verses. This is further supported by the fact that the word parousia was used by the apostle Peter to refer to the first coming of Jesus. When Jesus walked the earth, his disciples saw Him coming in power:

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

There is no doubt that here the word Parousia is associated with the transfiguration event. Why? Because it was one of the most prominent displays of the power and glory of the Son of Man. However, although Peter associated this coming of the kingdom with power primarily with the mount of transfiguration event, it was certainly not limited to that:

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out the demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come on you.

Luke 10:9 And heal the sick in it, and say to them, The kingdom of God has drawn near to you.

Luke 10:11 Even the dust clinging to us out of your city, we shake off against you! Yet know this, that the kingdom of God has drawn near to you!

As Dee Dee pointed out, "Similarity of terminology does not always indicate exact identification of referent." For the reasons given above, I believe that Jesus is referring to His first coming in Luke 9:27, not his second coming.

( I have conveniently copied much of this post from my article "Ye shall Not See It" at http://www.thingstocome.org/SonofMan.htm)

There is an article on our website that I really like by Bill Grimes which explains in more detail why Peter associates the first Parousia with the Transfiguration event at http://www.thingstocome.org/Matt.html.

[Darth Xena]

Dear Rusty:

Sigh, another post for me to refute. And you quoted me!! Ahh!!!!

[Etcetera]

Dee Dee:

Similarity of terminology does not always indicate exact identification of referent.

We may as well face this one head-on:

Psalm 110:1: Yahweh said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies a footstool...."

Colossians 3:1: If then you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Does that second passage allude to or in any way refer to the first? How would we know?

Matthew 27:46: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: "...my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Psalm 22:1: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Does Jesus allude to Psalm 22 on the cross? Again, how would we know?

I agree in principle that similar language does not prove the same referent. But some distinctions are in order. Matthew 24:29 uses O. T. language that refers originally to Babylon and other foreign powers. Yet Jesus is clearly not predicting the fall of Babylon all over again, despite the allusion. Instead he uses this language to predict the fall of Jerusalem. But the catch is this: He makes this fact clear in Matthew 24:2, 15-16. Without specifying Jerusalem, his scriptural citations would still be referring to Babylon.

In him.

Etcetera.

[Etcetera]

Athanasius:

Verse 27, however, begins with 'but I tell" (lego de), meaning that it stands in contrast to the preceding verses. Why would Jesus have begun verse 27 with the words "lego de" (but I tell) if seeing the kingdom of God during the disciple's lifetimes was synonymous with His second parousia?

That is not the necessary force of de in Greek. That particle can be translated "and" or "but," or remain untranslated altogether. You do not have a preceding men on which to build a solid case for contrast.

As it happens, one of the passages that I shall discuss in my next post on the parallels has a use of lego de that is definitely not a contrast:

Matthew 8:10-11: ...I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel [as with this gentile]. And I say [lego de] to you that many [id est, many gentiles] will come from east and west....

To translate de with "but" here would be folly. Jesus' statement about many (gentiles) coming into the kingdom clearly follows the faith of the (gentile) centurion in an complementary way, and not by way of contrast.

The real hitch for your proposed contrast is Matthew's version:

Matthew 16:28: Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.

Surely "truly I say to you" is complementary far more often than contrastive. At least it is in the examples that I have found. For instance:

Matthew 11:10-11: This is the one about whom it is written: "Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare the way for you." Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen any greater than John the baptist.

The second sentence strengthens the first. They do not by any means contrast.

Besides, the parallel construction in our passage runs counter to a contrast:

Matthew 16:27-28: For the son of man will come in the glory of his father with his angels, and then he will reward each according to his works. Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.

If Jesus did not mean the same thing by the second phrase as he did by the first, then he should not have quoted himself!

As for the specific timing phrase, "some standing here will not taste death until...," how much sense does it make to suppose that Jesus was promising that at least some of his disciples would live long enough to see what would happen in one week, or, as you suggest, what was already happening?

The verses that you cite...:

Matthew 12:28: But if I cast out the demons by the spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come on you.

Luke 10:9: And heal the sick in it, and say to them: "The kingdom of God has drawn near to you."

Luke 10:11: Even the dust clinging to us out of your city we shake off against you! Yet know this, that the kingdom of God has drawn near to you!

...fail as specific fulfillments of our prediction for that reason. The disciples have already seen those things. Why would "some" of them live long enough to see them again?

I quite agree with you that the transfiguration is a symbol of Jesus' future glory. But it is not the fulfillment of the prediction at hand. It is only a foretaste. Much like Peter says right after the transfiguration passage that you cited:

2 Peter 1:18-19: ...and we ourselves heard this voice carried down from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain. And we have the even surer prophetic word....

The transfiguration was a gift revelation of future glory, but the prophetic word announcing the coming of the son of man is even more certain.

In his holy name.

Etcetera.

[Etcetera]

4.

I submit for general perusal the following two parallels...:

Matthew 8:11-12: And I say to you that many shall come from east and west, and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness. In that place there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28-29: There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves cast out. And they will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will recline at table in the kingdom of God.

...to the following Olivet material:

Matthew 24:31: And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27: And then he will send his angels and gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The gathering of the elect in Olivet corresponds to the coming in of the “many” to dine with the patriarchs in Matthew 8:11-12, and with the coming in of the patriarchs and prophets themselves in Luke 13:28-29. The four winds in Olivet correspond to the four cardinal points of the compass in Luke 13:28-29, though Matthew 8:11-12 reduces these to two.

Furthermore, we have already seen that phrase “wailing and gnashing of teeth” in the parables of Matthew 13:36-43, 47-50, parables which are themselves parallel to material from Olivet. This pericope is the only place in the gospel of Luke where we find that phrase “wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Otherwise the phrase is found only in the gospel of Matthew.

These passages fit in perfectly with Olivet.

It ought to be noticed that Matthew and Luke each put these similar, but not identical, sayings in two very different contexts. Matthew 8:5-13 is the healing of the centurion’s boy. The centurion expresses his faith that Jesus can really heal his boy, and Jesus marvels:

Matthew 8:10: Now, when Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who were following: “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.”

This gentile soldier has more faith than any Jew, says Jesus. And he leads right into our saying in 8:11-12. Many gentiles shall come to recline with the patriarchs, but those faithless sons of Israel who thought that they belonged to the kingdom shall be cast out.

Luke 13:22-30, on the other hand, has nothing to do with gentiles. It has to do with those who have eaten and drunk in Jesus’ presence, on whose streets Jesus taught (13:26); that is, it has to do with the lost sheep of Israel. So, in response to the question of how many will be saved (13:23), Jesus answers:

Luke 13:25: Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying: “Lord, open up to us!” then he will answer and say to you: “I do not know where you are from.”

The Jews, in other words, who have rejected Jesus will be left out of the kingdom. This unsettling thought leads to our saying in 13:28-29. The faithless Jews will wail and gnash their teeth when they see the patriarchs and prophets coming in to recline at table in the kingdom of God, but they themselves are left out.

Two very different settings for this flexible saying imply that this was the sort of thing that Jesus was wont to say on various occasions. He could modify the scenario as needed to suit his situation.

The whole picture looks like this: The son of man, at his coming in glory, will send out his angels in all directions to gather in his elect. Those elect will include, first and foremost, the patriarchs and prophets who have died in service to God. They will come in from all directions to recline in the kingdom. Those elect will also include those who will come in to join the patriarchs at the eschatological table, more gentiles than Jews.

Etcetera.

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[Etcetera]

5.

This post will compare the last passage in the Didache with Olivet. I myself think that the Didache was written before 70; Robinson’s arguments in Redating the New Testament helped to convince me. If the document is not very early, then it is trying very hard to look very early, employing terminology that was used shortly after Jesus’ death and resurrection, but then seems to have all but disappeared.

At any rate, no matter when it was written, the Didache’s last chapter is parallel to Olivet. In what follows, the passages are listed in the order of Didache 16:1-8:

Guard your lives.

[Matthew 25:13a: Be on the alert then....]

Let your lamps be not quenched, nor your loins ungirded....

[Luke 12:35: Let your loins be girded, and your lamps alight. (Compare the parable in Matthew 25:1-12.)]

...for the hour of our Lord’s return is not known.

[Matthew 25:13b: ...for you know neither the day nor the hour.]

Gather together frequently, pursuing that which will benefit your souls, otherwise the entire time of your faith will be nearly worthless if you have not persevered to the end.

[Matthew 24:13: But he who endures to the end shall be saved.]

For in the last days false prophets and corrupters will be multiplied....

[Matthew 24:11: Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.]

...and the sheep will become wolves....

[~Matthew 10:16: Behold, I send you out as sheep amidst wolves.]

...and love will be turned into hate. As lawlessness increases....

[Matthew 24:12: And, because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.]

...they will hate and persecute and betray one another.

[Matthew 24:10: And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.]

And then the deceiver of the world will appear as the son of God, and will perform signs and wonders, and the earth will be delivered into his hands, and he will do terrible things that will surpass all evil done since the beginning. Then all mankind will be tried by fire, causing many to fall away and perish. But those with enduring faith will be saved by the one who was cursed.

[Matthew 24:15-16, 21, 13: Therefore, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ...then there will be great tribulation such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time.... But he who endures to the end shall be saved.]

Then the signs of truth will appear: First the sign of a rift in heaven, then the sign of the trumpet sounding, and third the resurrection of the dead. Yet not of all, but as it is said: “The Lord will come, and all his saints with him.” Then the world will see the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven.

[Matthew 24:30-31: Then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.]

The variation between these two passages is tremendous, yet they are clearly drawing on the same material. Note the following things:

1. Luke 12:35 (“let your loins be girded...”) is not in the Olivet discourse. Yet it seems to abbreviate the parable of the virgins in Matthew 25:1-12. Its presence here in Didache 16:1 confirms how well it fits in to the subject of the end of the age.

2. Compare Didache 16:2 (“gather together...”) with a well-known New Testament passage that also pertains to the time of the end:

Hebrews 10:25: ...not forsaking our own gathering together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

3. The idea expressed in Didache 16:3 (sheep and wolves) uses the same imagery as Matthew 10:16, but the point is dissimilar. They may not be related at all.

4. The Didache introduces an idea not actually present in Olivet: The deceiver of the world. Granted, however, that Jesus lifted the abomination of desolation image straight from the pages of Daniel, it is not surprising that the one who causes the abomination of desolation should be mentioned.

5. The final part of the Didache apocalypse merits a closer look:

Didache 16:6-8: Then the signs of truth will appear: First the sign of a rift in heaven, then the sign of the trumpet sounding, and third the resurrection of the dead. Yet not of all, but as it is said: “The Lord will come, and all his saints with him.” Then the world will see the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven.

[Matthew 24:30-31: Then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.]

Most of the images from Matthew reappear in the Didache. The mourning tribes and the angels do not, nor, technically, does the regathering, though the Didache implies it in its mention of all the saints. Now, the Didache is quite familiar with the regathering itself:

Didache 10:8-9: Remember, Lord, your church, to deliver it from all evil and to perfect it in your love, and gather it together from the four winds.... (See also 9:8.)

But in our parallel to Olivet, where we might expect the regathering to be mentioned, the Didache speaks instead of a resurrection of the saints, thus making explicit what was latent in the Lucan passage that we have already looked at:

Luke 13:28-29: There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves cast out. And they will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will recline at table in the kingdom of God.

The patriarchs and prophets coming in from all points of the compass have been dead for years (at least most of them!). What else could their regathering be but a resurrection? Unless we decide that the second coming of the Lord is when the O. T. saints passed out of sheol and into heaven, or some such. But suffice it to note that the Didache, at least, packs a resurrection of the saints into the coming described in Olivet.

Amongst early extrabiblical texts, the Didache is not alone in this contention. I am convinced that 1 Clement was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70, based partly (but by no means only) on 1 Clement 41.

1 Clement 23:5-24:1: Of a truth quickly and suddenly shall his will be accomplished, the scripture also bearing witness to it, saying that he shall come quickly and shall not tarry, and the Lord shall come suddenly into his temple, even the holy one whom you expect. Let us understand, dearly beloved, how the master continually shows unto us the resurrection that shall be hereafter, whereof he made the Lord Jesus Christ the first fruit, when he raised him from the dead.

1 Clement 50:2-3: Who is sufficient to be found therein, save those to whom God shall vouchsafe it? Let us therefore entreat and ask of his mercy, that we may be found blameless in love, standing apart from the factiousness of men. All the generations from Adam unto this day have passed away, but they that by God’s grace were perfected in love dwell in the abode of the pious, and they shall be made manifest in the visitation of the kingdom of God. For it is written: “Enter into the closet for a very little while until my anger and my wrath shall pass away, and I will remember a good day and will raise you from your tombs.”

The Lord shall suddenly come into his temple, and let us understand the resurrection that will take place. At the visitation of the kingdom of God (which texts like Luke 9:26-27 and its parallels associate with the coming of Jesus) the righteous dead will be made manifest.

For what it is worth, Barnabas 21:1, 3, written sometime after 70, also connects the imminent coming of the Lord with the resurrection.

My next post on this topic will dive back into the New Testament parallels. I just wanted to cover every possible early extrabiblical witness and raise the question: Will the New Testament parallels justify the moves that the Didache (for example) makes, specifically in placing a resurrection at the time of the coming described in Olivet?

For the amusement of any and all.

Etcetera.

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[Etcetera]

6a.

This sixth part of my discussion of parallels will be divided into parts a, b, and c.

We turn now to what I consider possibly the most important parallel to Olivet; I mean 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11. But first we must take a look at the matter strictly from the Pauline side of things. What is the structure of this passage? And how likely is it a priori that Paul knew about Jesus’ teachings on Olivet?

Here is the passage in its entirety:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11: But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For, if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by a word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For, when they say: “Peace and safety,” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as birth pangs upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep do so at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God appointed us, not to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us that whether we wake or sleep we should live together with him. Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

The principal element of structure that I wish to point out is the inclusio, italicized above. This is a fairly common literary device whereby a passage ends like it begins, much like a pair of bookends. The final bookend mirrors, recalls, or otherwise answers to the initial bookend. Here are the bookends again for closer inspection, their points of correspondence italicized:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-15: But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For, if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who sleep through Jesus. For this we say to you by a word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who sleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-11: But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God appointed us, not to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that [hina] whether we wake or we sleep we should live together with him. Therefore [dio] comfort and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 ends like it begins. To wit:

1. In the initial bookend Paul addresses the Thessalonian concern over the fate of the dead, “those who sleep,” compared with that of the living at the coming of the Lord. In the final bookend Paul asserts that “whether we wake or sleep” we shall live with him, directly answering the Thessalonian concern.

2. In the initial bookend Paul wishes to dispel potential Thessalonian sorrow over the fate of the dead. In the final bookend Paul insists that the intervening discussion has given the Thessalonians cause (dio) for comfort, directly answering their potential sorrow.

3. In the initial bookend Paul wishes to distance the saints from those who have no hope. In the final bookend Paul urges his Thessalonian converts to take hold of the hope that the intervening passage has offered (“putting on... as a helmet the hope of salvation”).

4. In the initial bookend Paul hangs the fate of the dead on the death and resurrection of Jesus (“if... Jesus died and rose again...”). In the final bookend Paul hangs the fate of both the dead and the living (“so that whether we wake or we sleep...”) on the death of Jesus (“who died for us”).

5. In the initial bookend Paul insists that it is God who will bring the dead to reunite with the living. In the final bookend Paul insists that it is God who has appointed us to something better than wrath.

6. In the initial bookend Paul speaks of those who have died through Jesus. In the final bookend Paul speaks of salvation through Jesus, directly answering the question about those who have died in the Lord. Eschatological salvation is “through him” for those who have died “through him.” Compare:

2 Timothy 2:11: Faithful is the saying: “If we are dead with him, we shall live with him....”

7. In the initial bookend Paul notes that God will bring with him (that is, with Jesus) those who have already died before the coming, and implies that the living will share in this togetherness (“we who are alive and remain will by no means precede those who sleep”). In the final bookend Paul notes that both those who are asleep and those who are awake will live with him.

The point of this inclusio is to wrap up the shared destiny of both the living and the dead in the tight package of the coming of Jesus both with and for those who are his (with the dead and for the living). 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 is a unified whole. It demands to be read as a unit, with a single reason or set of reasons for being penned.

But what is the source of the teaching in this passage? Paul tells us: It is by “a word of the Lord.” The question arises: Did the Lord give this word during his ministry before his resurrection, or did he give this word as a revelation from heaven afterward? Another way to put this same question is: Ought we to look for a saying or cluster of sayings from the accounts of Jesus’ ministry, the gospels, that Paul might have used in his epistle, or is such a search futile because this word of the Lord was actually a private revelation to Paul or one of his associates that has left no textual remains other than those in this epistle?

We naturally turn to the clear instances in Paul’s epistles of his using traditional material from Jesus’ ministry:

1 Corinthians 7:10-11: But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not depart from her husband... and that the husband should not send his wife away.

Paul’s teaching here clearly reflects that of Jesus in Matthew 5:32; 19:3-9; Mark 10:2-12; Luke 16:18. Notice that Paul refers to Jesus as the Lord here, just as in 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

From the same epistle to the Corinthian church:

1 Corinthians 9:14: So also the Lord directed those who preach the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

Again Paul’s teaching clearly reflects that of Jesus, this time his instructions to the apostles in Matthew 10:10; Luke 10:7-8. Notice again that Paul refers to Jesus as the Lord.

By way of contrast, let us turn to instances in Paul’s epistles of his receiving a word from the risen Lord, as in a vision or a prophetic message:

2 Corinthians 12:1: ...but I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.

What follows (the ascent into third heaven) has no parallel in any of the gospels, and note that Paul specifically calls it a vision or a revelation, not a word or instruction (compare Colossians 2:18; if care is to be taken with visions and the like, then it makes sense to properly identify an item as a vision). Likewise:

Galatians 1:12: For I neither received [the gospel] from man, not was I taught it, but [I received it] through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Again the incident that follows (his own conversion) comes after Jesus’ resurrection, and again Paul specifically calls it a revelation.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 looks very much more like 1 Corinthians 7:10-11; 9:14 than either 2 Corinthians 12:1 or Galatians 1:12. It lacks, like the former, any indication that a vision or a revelation is being discussed. I conclude that we are justified in at least looking in the gospels for a parallel to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11.

To be continued....

Etcetera.

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[Etcetera]

6b.

Are we justified in thinking that perhaps Paul knew about Olivet? How much did Paul really know about Jesus’ ministry and teaching? Was Paul not a renegade of sorts, off on his own on his mission to the gentiles, relatively unconcerned with the life of Jesus, enamored only of his death and resurrection? Hardly:

Galatians 4:6: And, because you are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his son into our hearts, crying: “Abba! Father!”

Romans 8:15: ...you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out: “Abba! Father!”

Mark 14:36: “And He was saying: “Abba! Father!”

1 Corinthians 11:23-26: For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you.... [The last supper.]

Luke 22:14-20: And, when the hour had come, he reclined at the table.... [The last supper.]

1 Corinthians 9:14: So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

1 Timothy 5:18: “For the scripture says: “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and: “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”

Luke 10:7: And stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the laborer is worthy of his wages.

Galatians 1:15-16: But, when he who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through his grace was pleased to reveal his son in me that I might preach him among the gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood....

Matthew 16:16-20: And Simon Peter answered and said: “You are the Christ, the son of the living God.” And Jesus answered and said to him: “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my father who is in heaven.”

1 Corinthians 7:10-11: But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, let her remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not send his wife away.

Mark 10:9, 11: What therefore God has joined together let no man separate.... Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her, and, if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.

Romans 14:14: I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is profane in itself.

Mark 7:15: ...there is nothing outside the man which going into him can defile him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.

Romans 15:7: For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision....

1 Corinthians 9:19: I have made myself a servant to all....

1 Corinthians 10:33: ...just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many, that they may be saved.

Matthew 20:26-28: It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave, just as the son of man did not come to be served, but rather to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1 Corinthians 13:2: ...if I have all faith so as to move mountains....

Matthew 17:20: ...if you have faith... you will say to this mountain: “Move!”

1 Corinthians 13:3: ...if I give away all my possessions....”

Matthew 19:21: If you would be perfect, go, sell all your possessions....

Romans 12:14: Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse.

Luke 6:27-28: Love your enemies.... Bless those who curse you.

Matthew 5:24: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

1 Thessalonians 5:13: ...live at peace among yourselves....

Mark 9:50: ...live at peace with one another....

1 Corinthians 4:5; 14:25: ...who will bring to light the secrets of darkness and will make public the purposes of the heart.... ...the secrets of his heart are made public....

Mark 4:22: For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it should come to light.

Romans 13:7: Render to all what is due them, tax to whom tax is due, custom to whom custom, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

Matthew 22:21: Then he said to them: “Then render to Caesar the things that are of Caesar; and to God the things that are of God.”

2 Corinthians 1:17-18: Or, that which I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yes, yes, and no, no, at the same time? But, as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no.

Matthew 5:37: But let your statement be yes, yes, or no, no; and anything beyond these is of evil.

These allusions come in all different levels, to be sure, but I think it clear that not to look for a parallel for 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 in the gospels, when Paul expressly tells us that he is giving “a word of the Lord,” would be utter folly.

To be continued....

Etcetera.

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[Etcetera]

6c.

I submit that the word of the Lord that Paul references in 1 Thessalonians 4:11-5:13 is Olivet and its gospel parallels, most specifically the Matthean version, and especially Matthew 24:30-51, though other parts of the discourse are also represented. Nota bene: The argument for parallelism does not depend on any single point of contact between 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 and Matthew 24:30-51. It is, in my judgment, the inevitable conclusion of the cumulative parallels:

1. I shall begin with those parallels that fall outside of Matthew 24:30-51. The first is:

1 Thessalonians 4:17: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet [eis apantesin] the Lord in the air.

Matthew 25:1, 6: Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet [eis hypantesin] the groom.... But at midnight there was a shout: “Behold, the groom! Come out to meet [eis apantesin] him!”

Both Paul and Matthew use the term [apantesin] to mean the reunion of believers with the Lord.

2. The second:

1 Thessalonians 5:3: For, when they say: “Peace and safety,” then sudden destruction comes upon them as birth pangs [odin] upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

Matthew 24:8: All these are the beginning of birth pangs [odin].

Both Paul and Matthew employ the motif of birth pangs to describe the tribulation that is to come over the land. (These are no ordinary birth pangs, mind you. They are the messianic woes, well known from second-temple Judaism.)

3. The third comes only from Mark’s version of the discourse. It is the only parallel that falls strictly outside of Matthew:

1 Thessalonians 5:7: For those who sleep do so at night and those who get drunk are drunk at night.

Mark 13:36: ...lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping.

4. And now for those parallels that line up within the key section of Matthew 24:30-51. Let us begin with this dense cluster:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: For the Lord himself, with a shout, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Matthew 24:30-31: ...and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds.

Five distinct parallels, as well as the general similarity in theme, mark off these passages: Heaven, the archangel (Paul) or angels (Matthew), the trumpet, the clouds, and the gathering together of the elect. All within two verses. Notice that Paul, just like the Didache, insists that the regathering includes the resurrection of the saints.

5. At this point Paul turns to his Thessalonian readers to admonish them to comfort one another, while Matthew discusses the imminence of these events. But then they both choose the same method of introducing the topic of unknowability:

1 Thessalonians 5:1: But of [peri de] the times and seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.

Matthew 24:36: But of [peri de] that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but my father only.

Both Paul and Matthew use the phrase peri de, followed by a negative expression (compare Matthew’s “no one knows” to Paul’s “you have no need,” which implies that no one can know) to emphasize the unknowability of the coming of the Lord. Neither appears to be turning to a completely different topic. They simply point out the inscrutability of the topic already under discussion.

6. Both Paul and Matthew now insist that, just before the coming of the Lord, the appearance of normalcy will prevail. Unbelievers will not be expecting a sudden end to business as usual:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3: For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For, when they say: “Peace and safety,” then sudden destruction comes upon them as birth pangs upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

Matthew 24:37-42: But, as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the son of man be. For, as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know at what hour your Lord is coming.

The eating and drinking and marrying (which Matthew mentions) betoken a general feeling of peace and safety (which Paul mentions). Noah’s flood (which Matthew mentions) is certainly a sudden destruction (which Paul mentions). The taking away of the unsuspecting (which Matthew mentions) is a failure to escape (which Paul mentions).

7. Both Paul and Matthew now encourage watchfulness in view of the fact that the Lord will come like a thief:

1 Thessalonians 5:4-6: But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch [gregoreo] and be sober.

Matthew 24:43-44: But know this, that, if the master of the house had known what hour of the night the thief would come, he would have watched [gregoreo] and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Paul has already stated that the Lord will come like a thief in the night, and he repeats himself here, right in order with Matthew’s version.

It is also just at this point in Mark’s version that Jesus encourages his followers not to sleep, a parallel noted above under number 3, and repeated here only to point out that both Paul and Mark insert this admonition at the same part of the discussion.

8. Both Paul and Matthew now warn against drunkenness:

1 Thessalonians 5:7: For those who sleep do so at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.

Matthew 24:45-51: Who then is a faithful and wise servant whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. But, if that evil servant says in his heart: “My master is delaying his coming,” and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew’s version is much longer than Paul’s because it is a parable. Paul abbreviates the parable to a mere aphorism. It is very interesting, then, that at precisely this point of Luke’s version of Olivet Luke himself abbreviates the parable into a mere aphorism (or, alternately, cites one of Jesus’ related aphorisms instead of the parable):

Luke 21:34: But take heed to yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day come on you unexpectedly.

Parables are not much Paul’s style, and, though Luke certainly has them in spades, this is not the only place in which he abbreviates one.

9. Both Paul and Matthew call this event the parousia (presence or coming) of the Lord (Matthew 24:39 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15).

What are we to say to this extended list of parallels, most of them coming in the same order, between Olivet and 1 Thessalonians 4:11-5:13? Paul borrowed from Jesus’ lesson plan. He taught on the end times “by a word of the Lord.”

A couple of loose ends to tie up....

First, it may surprise the reader at this point to learn that I myself do not necessarily think that the exact “word of the Lord” that Paul was referencing in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 was Olivet. He may well have had an exact saying or aphorism of the Lord in mind, and then used Olivet to elaborate. Consider:

1 Thessalonians 4:15: For this we say to you by a word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who sleep.

The word of the Lord here referenced supposedly told Paul that the dead would precede the living. But Olivet by itself does not thus order the regathering. I propose that the “word of the Lord” that does so order the gathering is a pair of passages that we have seen before (post 4 of this series):

Matthew 8:11-12: And I say to you that many shall come from east and west, and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness. In that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28-29: There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves cast out. And they will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will recline at table in the kingdom of God.

In the Lucan passage the order of gathering is explicit: First the (dead) patriarchs and prophets, then (hypothetically in this passage) the living faithful. The combination of the Lucan saying with the Matthean saying would make this point even stronger.

I think it quite possible that the Thessalonians already had some version of Olivet in front of them, whether written or in the form of oral memory. They knew enough about the end, after all, to have serious questions about it. But suppose that the version in front of them was like the versions that we have in the synoptic gospels, containing only an implicit reference to the resurrection, nothing explicit. That would explain how they would know about the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the living, but not about the fate of the dead! Paul then adds the information from one of Olivet’s parallels into the mix (the Lucan and possibly Matthean saying above), simultaneously integrating it into his discussion. He then runs through the whole Olivet discourse (which they already know) again, but intentionally adds the as yet unknown information about the dead at the appropriate points.

Just an interesting thought.

Second, the question may naturally arise: Well, why then did Jesus not mention the resurrection more explicitly in the discourse? Why leave it out, to the confusion of later Thessalonian converts?

The answer is simple. Jesus was addressing the needs of the living on Olivet. He spoke of great tribulation, of the signs leading up to the end, what to do to escape when the time comes, how to avoid false trails, and so on. He was preparing the living for a trying time, not the dead, just like the disciples asked (“what are the signs?”). Paul, on the other hand, had no choice but to address the fate of the dead. The Thessalonians’ question demanded it.

The Didache, by its very definition a didactic text, mentions the resurrection for the sake of completeness.

For the edification of the saints.

Etcetera.

:read:

[Etcetera]

If anyone has any additional parallels or observations to add to these between Olivet and Paul, please do so. I am always in the market for such things.

Etcetera.

:yipee:

[Etcetera]

7.

This is my last intended informational post on Olivet parallels. Again, I welcome any and all comments, especially parallels that I may have missed.

I refer the reader to the apocalypse of John. There are three main sets of seven in the central section (4:1-19:21) of this book. There are seven seals, and the seventh seal yields seven trumpets, and the seventh trumpet yields seven bowls.

The imagery of each seal, trumpet, or bowl is rarely arbitrary or ad hoc. The trumpets and bowls have their inspiration in the account of the exodus in the Hebrew scriptures. The sores of the first bowl, the bloody waters of the second and third trumpets and bowls, the darkness of the fourth trumpet, and the hail of the first trumpet and seventh bowl all derive from the plagues of Egypt. The rationale for such a visitation of plagues seems to be:

Deuteronomy 28:58-63: If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, Yahweh your God, then Yahweh will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues, great and prolonged plagues and serious and prolonged sicknesses. Moreover, he will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this book of the law, will Yahweh bring upon you until you are destroyed. You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of Yahweh your God. And it shall be that, just as Yahweh rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so Yahweh will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.

The seals, however, do not derive from the plagues at all. Their source, I propose, is the Olivet discourse. I shall treat each seal in turn:

1. The first seal.

Revelation 6:1-2: And I saw when the lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder: “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering, and to conquer.

The identity of this rider has long been a riddle. He closely resembles the rider in Revelation 19:11-16, who is clearly Christ. Both ride white horses, both are going out in conquest, and the rider in 6:1-2 has a crown while Christ has many diadems.

So is this rider Christ? Almost certainly not. This rider is the first in a list of characters (seals 1-4) in whose company Christ simply does not belong. Furthermore, Christ at this point is the one opening the seals in heaven. It would be truly awkward if he were also one of the results of opening the seals. Finally, this rider being Christ would render 19:11-16 supremely anticlimactic. Why is Christ going out to conquer in the latter passage if he has already gone out in the former? Did his first conquest fail?

So our rider resembles Christ, yet is not Christ. He is a false christ.

2. The second seal.

Revelation 6:3-4: And, when he broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying: “Come!” And another, a red horse, went out, and to him who sat on it was it granted to take peace from the earth, and that men should slay one another. And a great sword was given to him.

This rider takes away peace. He is clearly war.

3. The third seal.

Revelation 6:5-6: And, when he broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying: “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard as it were a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying: “A choenix of wheat for a denarius, and three choenices of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

This rider reduces crops and stores of grain, thus driving up the price. He is famine.

4. The fourth seal.

Revelation 6:7-8: And, when he broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying: “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it had the name death, and hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

This rider is death.

5. The fifth seal.

Revelation 6:9-11: And when it opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held; and they cried with a loud voice, saying: “How long, O sovereign ruler, holy and true, will you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell upon the earth?” And there was given to each one of them a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while until both their fellow servants and their brethren, who were about to be killed as they, should be fulfilled.

These are the martyrs.

6. The sixth seal.

Revelation 6:12-14: And I looked when he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. And the sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

These are cosmic signs.

3. The seventh seal.

Revelation 8:1-2, 6: And, when he broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.... And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them.

These are trumpets.

Each of these seals has its basis in Olivet, and in order too. The passages quoted from Olivet all come from Matthew 24:5-9, 29-31, unless otherwise noted:

1. The false christ.

For many will come in my name, saying: “I am the Christ,” and will mislead many.

2. War.

And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars.... For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom....

3. Famine.

...and in various places there will be famines....

4. Death.

...and earthquakes. [...and plagues, from Luke 21:11.]

This is clearly the weakest link. Granted, both earthquakes and the plagues that Luke inserts can be deadly, but death is not specifically listed at this point of Olivet (though it appears elsewhere in the discourse).

The list of seals has a break here. There are only four riders; the remaining seals are different images. It is interesting, then, that Olivet, too, has a break here:

But all these are the beginning of the birth pangs.

5. The martyrs.

Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of my name.

6. The cosmic signs.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The intervening Olivet material that the seals omit (Matthew 24:10-28) repeats a great deal of what has already been mentioned: The false christs and prophets, the tribulation, and so on. Repetition would not be conducive to representation in a set of seven seals.

7. The trumpets.

And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I happen to believe that it was John the apostle who wrote the apocalypse, and that John the apostle was one of the disciples sitting on Olivet that fine day while Jesus taught. It does not surprise me, then, to find allusions to Olivet in the apocalypse.

In fact, I think that much of the book was written as a commentary on Olivet:

Revelation 1:7, 9: Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, amen.

Matthew 24:30-31: Then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:9: I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Mark 13:13: And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Revelation 22:12: Behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Matthew 16:27: For the son of man will come in the glory of his father with his angels, and then he will reward each according to his works.

For the glory of God.

Etcetera.

:read:

[Darth Xena]

Hey Everyone and Hey Etcetera:

Again I am just dropping a note that I will be coming to this, but i cannot say when. I have already written somewhat extensively on this in the past, and have some additional collating and stuff to add.

[Athanasius]

Hi Etcetera,

You are certainly correct in pointing out that de can be continuative rather than contrastive (or adversative).

In the AV, de is translated in a continuative fashion 934 times, but adversative most of the time (1237 times).

Likewise, I agree with you that the sense of amen (“Verily”) is complementary or supportive.

But let’s look closely at the parallel verses:

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

If you look closely, you will see that the parallel of “Verily I say unto you” In Luke 9:27 is “I tell you of a truth.”

"De" is a tiny snippet of information that Jesus spoke that Luke, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, includes, but the others leave out. It really has no parallel, for none of the other gospel writers record it.

Etcetera:
To translate de with "but" here [in Matthew 8:11] would be folly. Jesus' statement about many (gentiles) coming into the kingdom clearly follows the faith of the (gentile) centurion in an complementary way, and not by way of contrast.

Two versions actually do translate lego de in Matthew 8:11 “But I say.” However, I agree with you that here, the sense seems to be continuative rather than adversative.

Darby: 11 But I say unto you, that many shall come from the rising and setting sun, and shall lie down at table with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens;
Green’s literal: 11 But I say to you that many will come from east and west, and will recline with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven


Outside of Luke 9:27, lego de occurs 11 times in the gospels. I looked at each instance and did the following analysis:

Adversative:
Matthew 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.
Luke 12:27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

Possibly adversative:
Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Continuative:
Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

So it is quite possible that Jesus spoke this in an contrastive sense. The translators of the AV rendered it that way, and so do most of the translations I have consulted. Weymouth omits it. Young is the only one I have found who translates it "and."

The verses that you cite...:


quote:
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Matthew 12:28: But if I cast out the demons by the spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come on you.

Luke 10:9: And heal the sick in it, and say to them: "The kingdom of God has drawn near to you."

Luke 10:11: Even the dust clinging to us out of your city we shake off against you! Yet know this, that the kingdom of God has drawn near to you!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



...fail as specific fulfillments of our prediction for that reason. The disciples have already seen those things. Why would "some" of them live long enough to see them again?

I did not quote those verses as examples of the fulfillment of this prediction. Rather, I quoted them to point out that there are other verses besides 2 Peter 1:16 that refer to the incarnation as a coming of the kingdom of God. In addition, they help to shed light on the meaning of the parallel statements "see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" in Matthew 16:28, "have seen the kingdom of God come with power" in Mark 9:1, and "see the kingdom of God" in Luke 9:27.

These parallels all demonstrate that the coming of the Kingdom of God was Jesus coming into their midst as He went about His ministry. Although the coming of the kingdom had been demonstrated by miracles, the disciples had not yet seen with their eyes a full demonstration of "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ," as Peter puts it. They were not "eyewitnesses of his majesty" until the transfiguration event.

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Since you have an interest in parallels, this should grab your attention:

Peter's recognition of the transfiguration as a demonstration of "the power and coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ" parallels "the kingdom of God come with power" in Mark 9:1!

And yes, I agree with you that this was but a foretaste of the glory to come!

Praise Be To His Name!

[Etcetera]

Athanasius:

"De" is a tiny snippet of information that Jesus spoke that Luke, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, includes, but the others leave out. It really has no parallel, for none of the other gospel writers record it.


Actually, of course, Jesus did not in all likelihood say de. This is a Greek translation of Jesus' Aramaic or Hebrew.

Two versions actually do translate lego de in Matthew 8:11 “But I say.” However, I agree with you that here, the sense seems to be continuative rather than adversative.

I accept this criticism. I should have said that it would be folly to think of it as a contrast, not that it would be folly to use the word but.

So the count is (roughly) 7-4 adversative to continuative. So this statistic is of no help at all in determining our meaning. One is looking for a preponderance of evidence, not an either/or.

But look for a moment at those instances of lego de that you cite. Look at how Luke tends to use that phrase (remembering that the Greek is Luke's communication of what Jesus said, not Jesus' actual Aramaic or Hebrew words; it is his usage that counts, not Matthew's or anyone else's). His count is 1-3 adversative to continuative! This statistic actually leans in my favor, if anything.

So it is quite possible that Jesus spoke this in an contrastive sense.

Possible? Sure, I can walk that mile with you, with only Luke in front of us.

Matthew and Mark use continuative expressions, while Luke uses an expression that could go either way. As long as Matthew and Mark are there attesting to the continuation, I am not going to assume that Luke differed from them and took the opposite tack! Rather, he too intended a continuation in this case.

These parallels all demonstrate that the coming of the Kingdom of God was Jesus coming into their midst as He went about His ministry.

With this statement I absolutely agree. Compare (all emphases Wright's):

N. T. Wright, Jesus and the Victory of God, page 537: "If I by the finger of God cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." The kingdom was already present where Jesus was, and indeed because he was there. Being welcomed into this kingdom consisted in being welcomed into fellowship with Jesus: he was the one around whom Israel was being reconstituted, at whose word she could find forgiveness and healing. The welcome he was offering, and the anger that welcome provoked, made sense only if Jesus was claiming in some sense to represent Israel in himself.

Back to work...:

They were not "eyewitnesses of his majesty" until the transfiguration event.

You have completely ignored the most damaging objection to the transfiguration being the fulfillment: Jesus was then promising "some" of his disciples that they would live for one more week. I prefer solutions that make good sense of what Jesus was saying.

Peter's recognition of the transfiguration as a demonstration of "the power and coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ" parallels "the kingdom of God come with power" in Mark 9:1!

Oh, I completely accept this parallel. And you are correct to note that the transfiguration was a demonstration of the power and coming, not the power and coming itself. Let us read this passage in context:

2 Peter 1:10-11: Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about his calling and choosing you, for, as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble, for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Peter says as much as Jesus said on Olivet: "Those who endure to the end will be saved." Do not give up, do not stumble. These injunctions, along with the future tense, tell us that this entrance to the eternal kingdom is yet in the future.

2 Peter 1:12: Therefore, I shall always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you.

Remind you of what things? Of the need to persevere until the manifestation of the eternal kingdom just mentioned in verse 11, of course.

2 Peter 1:13-15: And I consider it right, as long as I am in this dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, knowing that the laying aside of my dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind.

Ah, the crux of the problem. Peter knows that he is going to die shortly, and does not want his readers to fall away after he is gone. He is reminding his readers of what they already know, and now he goes on to remind them of the basis of his authority on the subject of the dawning of the eternal kingdom:

2 Peter 1:16a: For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ....

The parousia here is Jesus' second coming, not his first coming. Peter is still talking about the eternal kingdom that is on its way. The apostles did not invent this idea of Jesus returning in power, nor were they deceived into accepting it. Their information was first-hand, not second-hand. They heard it from the Lord himself in the flesh, and then received a measure of proof:

2 Peter 1:16b: ...but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty [in the transfiguration].

This is how Peter, for one, knows for certain that the parousia in power is going to take place. He received a divine foretaste of it. To paraphrase: "We were not deceived when we told you that Jesus is going to return in power. Rather, we witnessed an event that virtually guarantees his return."

Skip down to...:

2 Peter 1:19: And so we have the prophetic word made more sure....

What prophetic word? Jesus' own prophecy of his coming in power (verse 16) in his eternal kingdom (verse 11). And how was this prediction "made more sure?" By the transfiguration, just described in verses 17-18. The coming in power is not identical to the event that made the coming in power "more sure." The parousia is not identical to the transfiguration. The latter is, as you aptly put it, a demonstration, or proof, of the power and sure future realization of the former.

In him.

Etcetera.

[Athanasius]

You have completely ignored the most damaging objection to the transfiguration being the fulfillment: Jesus was then promising "some" of his disciples that they would live for one more week. I prefer solutions that make good sense of what Jesus was saying.

I don't think that the emphasis in this passage was on how long the disciples were going to live, or on how distant the event was in the future. Rather, the emphasis was on what some of them would see in their lifetimes. Because of that, I think that there is no reason to think that Jesus must have been speaking of an event in the distant future.

Besides, was the destruction of Jerusalem and the nation of Israel in judgement a visible coming, a parousia? A coming in judgement, yes, but the disciples who lived until that time did not see him as they did at the transfiguration. Aside from John's vision of the Apocolypse, there is no other "seeing" of Jesus that fulfills this criteria of visibility combimed with a coming in power.

Secondly, I agree with you that the transfiguration was a foretaste of the future glory to be unveiled. But it happened during the First Parousia, not the Second. Note that "fables" is plural, and seems to indicate that Peter is referring to accounts that some might suspect to be made-up stories.

2 Peter 1:16 ¶ For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

[Etcetera]

Athanasius:

I don't think that the emphasis in this passage was on how long the disciples were going to live, or on how distant the event was in the future.

And yet there it is, "some of you will not taste death." Jesus set up this terminus, and you have yet to explain why. You try to state what it does not mean, but what then does it mean?

Rather, the emphasis was on what some of them would see in their lifetimes.

Yes. And one does not normally say that someone will see something in his or her lifetime when it is actually going to happen next week. "Some of you reading this post will not die until you see Saint Patrick's Day." You produce some parallels to this kind of wording applied to immediate events, and we can debate them.

Secondly, I agree with you that the transfiguration was a foretaste of the future glory to be unveiled. But it happened during the First Parousia, not the Second.

Yes, of course the transfiguration happened during Jesus' earthly ministry. You have not heard me argue otherwise.

As my post pointed out, the parousia in 2 Peter 1:16 answers to the eternal kingdom in 1:11. There is nothing in between verse 11 and verse 16 to suggest that Peter was wishing to remind his readers of anything other than the need to stand strong in view of the coming of the (still future) kingdom. You wish this parousia to be the first coming, and I am saying that it is perfectly intelligible in its usual sense when applied to Christ, his second coming. Show me how this cannot be so, and I will abandon the usual usage.

But I rather think that the passage is clear as it stands:

2 Peter 1:16: For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

We were not deceived by the kinds of false prophets that Jesus warned against and that I am going to discuss momentarily (2 Peter 1:20-2:3!). No, this prophecy of the coming in power, the parousia, is true, and was made more sure (1:19) by the fact that I, Peter, was vouchsafed a foretaste of it on the mount of transfiguration.

Notice the gar. I want you to remember to be diligent (verses 10-11), even after I am gone (verses 12-15), because (gar) the parousia will indeed happen; it is no fable. In fact, it was proven to me personally on the holy mount.

This reading is completely rational, is it not? I mean, you may prefer another reading, but does my reading make sense of the text? Of course. It flows from start to finish without a hitch, and it preserves the usual sense of the parousia of the Lord, matching this coming up with the entrance to the eternal kingdom in verse 11. You have shown me nothing to call it into question.

Note that "fables" is plural, and seems to indicate that Peter is referring to accounts that some might suspect to be made-up stories.

If the story of the transfiguration were the "fable," it would be just that, a fable (singular!). Rather, the fables are the lies of the false prophets in 1:20-2:3 (compare Matthew 24:4-5, 11, 23-26). There were as many specific versions of the end as there were false prophets in the first century.

Besides, was the destruction of Jerusalem and the nation of Israel in judgment a visible coming, a parousia? A coming in judgment, yes, but the disciples who lived until that time did not see him as they did at the transfiguration.

I have nowhere yet stated my interpretation of what concrete event the parousia is supposed to refer to. I am reading the texts at this point. The theological deductions and inductions will come later.

All in good time. :smile:

Yours in the name.

Etcetera.

[Athanasius]

2 Peter 1:16: For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

If the story of the transfiguration were the "fable," it would be just that, a fable (singular!).

My meaning was not that "fables" refers to the transfiguration account. It was that the plurality of "fables" corresponds to the plurality of apostolic accounts of Jesus activities and teachings during the first Parousia. The basic idea is, The things we have made known to you concerning the power and coming of Jesus are true, not made up fables, because we are eyewitnesses of His majesty.

I think that the passage can be honorably interpreted as you do it. I can't point out any glaring errors in your view. I can only point to subtle aspects of the passage, such as that above, that harmonize better if we take Peter to be referring to the First Parousia.

[Etcetera]

Athanasius:

My meaning was not that "fables" refers to the transfiguration account. It was that the plurality of "fables" corresponds to the plurality of apostolic accounts of Jesus activities and teachings during the first Parousia.

I see.

It would be nice if there were some contextual clue within 2 Peter 1:10-2:3 to suggest that a multiplicity of apostolic accounts of the words or deeds of Jesus during his ministry was even on Peter's radar screen. Since we do have false prophets mentioned in the context, that is of course where I myself would first look for the mythoi.

You use that term "first parousia" rather often. This passage is, I think, the only passage in which it is even remotely possible that the term parousia is used of Jesus' earthly lifetime. Not that the apostles themselves would necessarily object to this terminology (they do sometimes employ the same term for both comings), but as they themselves do not use it, I myself would tend not to use it either.

I think that the passage can be honorably interpreted as you do it. I can't point out any glaring errors in your view.

That is a noble statement, and the sign of an open mind. It has been a pleasure chatting with you on this matter.

Under the blood.

Etcetera.

[Athanasius]

I forgot to comment regarding this.

Etcetera:
And one does not normally say that someone will see something in his or her lifetime when it is actually going to happen next week.

I see your point, but someone might say this if He knows that a hoped for event is very near that most people have despaired of seeing in their lifetimes. When these words were spoken, did the disciples recognize that the Kingdom of God was advancing before their eyes in the very person of Jesus? The three who shortly thereafter witnessed the transfiguration event were blessed to have their eyes opened to this.

A researcher investigating a rare form of cancer might, shortly before he has perfected a cure, announce, "I believe that a cure for this deadly disease will be found, not 100 years from now, but within our lifetimes," knowing that He is on the verge of a cure.

If he announced His cure a few days later, his earlier prediction would not be inconsistent with that. The prediction would be fulfilled earlier than expected, yes, but that would be a delightful surprise. Our Lord, out of His great love for us, sometimes answers before we even finish asking, and fulfills dreams before we can imagine them ever possibly being fulfilled.

Isaiah 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

It would be nice if there were some contextual clue within 2 Peter 1:10-2:3 to suggest that a multiplicity of apostolic accounts of the words or deeds of Jesus during his ministry was even on Peter's radar screen. Since we do have false prophets mentioned in the context, that is of course where I myself would first look for the mythoi.

Actually, Peter's comment can contrast with the sayings of the false prophets, and still refer to accounts of the life and teaching of Jesus that were made known to them.

[Etcetera]

I have just found two more parallels to Paul's discussion in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11. These come from F. F. Bruce, 1 & 2 Thessalonians.

Luke 21:34, 36: ...and that day come upon you of a sudden [aiphnidios] like a trap.... But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape [ekphygein] all these things....

1 Thessalonians 5:3: For, when they say: “Peace and safety,” then sudden [aiphnidios] destruction comes upon them as labor pains upon a pregnant woman, and they shall not escape [ekphygein].

Both Paul and Luke speak of the suddenness of the day arriving, then, while Paul speaks of unbelievers who will not escape, Luke speaks of believers praying that they might escape, which implies that unbelievers will not escape. Bruce further comments on that first parallel (the brackets, but not the parentheses, are mine to bring in the context of his statement):

Bruce, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, page 110: A closer parallel to the present warning [than even 2 Thessalonians 1:9!] is provided by the dominical admonition of Luke 21:34-36, where "that day" will come suddenly (episte... aiphnidios) on all the inhabitants of the whole earth, including unwatchful disciples. (That is the only other NT occurrence of the classical adjective aiphnidios. In LXX it is found... only in books not translated from a Hebrew original.)

Aiphnidios, in other words, comes one use short of being a N. T. hapax legomenon. And its only contexts are Olivet and Paul's injunctions in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11.

In my original post on this Pauline passage I marked off the admonition not to sleep in Mark 13:36 as the only parallel that falls strictly outside of Matthew. Well, scratch that. These two parallels come closer to Luke's version.

In the love of the Lord.

Etcetera.

[Etcetera]

Athanasius:

...someone might say [that an event will happen within one's lifetime] if he knows that a hoped for event is very near that most people have despaired of seeing in their lifetime.

Good observation. You may well have a point. The terminus of a lifetime might be appropriate for an event which has been earnestly expected for most of a lifetime, even if the event is slated to happen next week.

However, in your interpretation the event promised in our texts is the transfiguration, not the coming of the kingdom in power. No one was looking for the transfiguration. No one was looking for a mere foretaste of kingdom come, however sweet that foretaste might be. That was a surprise. So, once again, you would have to "fudge" a bit on the events in question, cleanly identifying the transfiguration with the coming kingdom for some purposes, neatly separating the two events for others.

Better to take the most natural reading of the text as it stands, I think, whatever the consequences.

Regards.

Etcetera.

[Athanasius]

However, in your interpretation the event promised in our texts is the transfiguration, not the coming of the kingdom in power. No one was looking for the transfiguration.

No, you are misunderstanding me. One may look for a great fulfillment of prophecy to happen, but be completely unaware of the specifics of how it will be fulfilled. Of course, he will not be looking for those specific events. The disciples were looking for the Kingdom of God to come with power.

The Kingdom of God was coming among them in the person of Jesus, but the disciples did not see the actual power with which He was coming until the transfiguration took place. Until then, His glory and power were hidden behind the veil of His flesh, and evidenced by miracles.

[Etcetera]

Athanasius:

One may look for a great fulfillment of prophecy to happen, but be completely unaware of the specifics of how it will be fulfilled. Of course, he will not be looking for those specific events. The disciples were looking for the Kingdom of God to come with power.

All right, now you have the coming of the kingdom in power fulfilled at the transfiguration. But you do still believe that there will one day really be an "actual" coming of the kingdom in power, right? A parousia? So the disciples are waiting for the kingdom to come in power, Jesus says that this, the transfiguration, is it, and then they learn (just in time to pen the epistles) that, ah, there will be a (how would one phrase it?) "real" coming of the kingdom in power (much more along the lines of, though not identical to, what they expected all along), after all? Sounds like the ol' switcheroo.

Jesus repeats himself, plain and simple:

Matthew 16:27-28: For the son of man will come in the glory of his father with his angels, and then he will reward each according to his works. Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.

Jesus does not say "a foretaste of the son of man coming," or "a demonstration of the son of man coming," or "a preview of the son of man coming." He says that some standing there would see exactly what he had just talked about, the coming of the son of man. He did not have to repeat himself. But he did, and we must find a way to live with that little fact.

It would have been easy for Jesus to promise to do exactly as you suggest, show the disciples that the first stages of the kingdom are here and now in some way that they do not yet understand. But he does not. He promises the thing itself, the coming of the son of man, the grand event of which he was just speaking a moment before, within the lifetime of at least some of his listeners.

At the mercy of the text.

Etcetera.

[Athanasius]

All right, now you have the coming of the kingdom in power fulfilled at the transfiguration. But you do still believe that there will one day really be an "actual" coming of the kingdom in power, right? A parousia? So the disciples are waiting for the kingdom to come in power, Jesus says that this, the transfiguration, is it, and then they learn (just in time to pen the epistles) that, ah, there will be a (how would one phrase it?) "real" coming of the kingdom in power (much more along the lines of, though not identical to, what they expected all along), after all? Sounds like the ol' switcheroo.

You are forgetting the post I made above, in which I explained the reason why I believe that Jesus first spoke of His second Parousia in verse 27, and then spoke of His first parousia in verse 28 (because Luke includes information that the other synoptics do not, indicating that there was a contrast between the two statements). If you are right in your contention that both verses speak of the second coming, then of course, what I believe makes no sense. But I don't hold to that, so you are poking fun at a straw man. There is no actual "switcheroo" involved in my interpretation. If I am correct, then it would be reasonable to think that Jesus was indeed promising to a few of the disciples an experience during the first coming of the power to be revealed at the second.

[Etcetera]

Athanasius:

I am not poking fun. Only writing colorfully. Sorry for any offense.

Your analogy to using a lifetime as a terminus for an event about to happen in a week was a cure for cancer. When, after only one week, the cure for cancer is announced, it is just that, a cure for cancer. Not a foretaste of a cure, not the discovery of an Amazonian flower that might yield a cure, not a pill to set the progress of the disease back a few years until a cure might be found, not proof that a cure is possible. Even if this new cure has a score of drawbacks and uncomfortable side effects, it is still the cure, and that alone makes the lifetime terminus appropriate. If it is not the long anticipated cure, that terminus is completely out of place.

The cure for cancer was your example. But now you seem content to apply the lifetime terminus to an event that is not actually the long anticipated revolution of the ages. The transfiguration was not the actual cure for cancer, as it were, but only a demonstration of the cure that will be forthcoming. So the terminus of a lifetime is out of place. That was my only point in the last post or two.

If I am correct, then it would be reasonable to think that Jesus was indeed promising to a few of the disciples an experience during the first coming of the power to be revealed at the second.

But not, according to your own analogy, using the disciples' lifetime as an upper limit, since this is not yet the event itself.

Cheers.

Etcetera.

[Athanasius]

If I am correct, then it would be reasonable to think that Jesus was indeed promising to a few of the disciples an experience during the first coming of the power to be revealed at the second.

I really should retract that statement, which I added as poorly worked out afterthought. You are forcing me to refine and sharpen my view, and for that I am grateful.

It seems to me that the transfiguration was not a foretaste of the event Jesus is referring to in Luke 9:27, but an unveiling of the power and glory in which He was coming as He accomplished His mission. Until the transfiguration, that glory, though present, had not been seen, because it was veiled by human flesh.

In all three accounts, Jesus promised them that they would see this coming. Matthew states that they will "see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." What but the first coming meets this criteria of seeing Him within the lifetime of the disciples?

I don't consider the transfiguration to be the coming itself, but rather, it was what Peter viewed as a significant part of it, a demonstration to Him of the power and glory with which Jesus was coming. The triumphal entry into Jerusalem may have been a part of that as well. There were many events which together accomplished the complete fulfillment of this prophecy, perhaps even Pentecost and the spread of the gospel during the lives of the apostles. But if so, the promise that they will "see" the Son of Man coming in his kingdom means that Pentecost and the spread of the gospel must not be regarded as a fulfillment of this promise apart from the incarnation. The coming of Jesus and the concurrent penetration of the kingdom of God into the hearts of men continued following the ascension, in an even more powerful way.

Although the kingdom was currently in the process of coming in the person of Jesus, this coming was not yet complete when Jesus spoke these words. That may explain the variance of tenses in each of parallel accounts. Robertson writes:

Mark speaks of the kingdom of God as "come" (elhluyuian, second perfect active participle). Matthew as "coming" (ercomenon) referring to the Son of man, while Luke has neither form.

Blessings In Christ,

Athanasius

[The Curtmudgeon]

Etcetera (and other readers), I hope you don't mind if I go back several posts to raise a very minor point.

02-27-2003 @ 02:48 AM
Etcetera:
7. The seventh seal.

....

These are trumpets.

Sigh; this BB software doesn't allow for quotes-within-quotes; here's the verse you quoted:


Revelation 8:1-2, 6: And, when he broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.... And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them.


Anyway, my point is: I've always understood this to read that the 7th Seal was the half-hour silence, and that then the trumpets commenced following the completion of the 7 seals. I'm not sure I can logically argue the significance of such a silence, yet I believe that is what John is describing here.

Likewise, your statement "the seventh trumpet yields seven bowls" ignores what John describes as the actual result of the 7th trumpet:


15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the sa