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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Salvation from God’s point of view

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  • Salvation from God’s point of view

    When we think or talk about salvation we usually mean the process of having our sins forgiven by repenting of them and putting our faith in Jesus Christ. From the human point of view this is what salvation is but from God’s viewpoint this is only one of several steps. The complete process is described in Romans 8:29,30:
    Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

    We see that salvation consists of five steps: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification.

    The first step, foreknowledge, is the logical result of God’s omniscience. He knew even before he created us who would believe the gospel and who would reject it.

    He decided that those who believed the gospel were to be conformed to the image of Christ and so become part of God’s family. This decision is called predestination. He predestined those who believe to become like Christ but he didn’t predestine those who reject the gospel to any particular fate. The final destiny of the lost is simply the natural result of their own unbelief.

    The next step is calling those whom he has predestined. He does this thru the preaching of the gospel. He causes someone to tell them the gospel so they can believe it and be saved. From our point of view this seems to be the beginning of the salvation experience because it is the first one we are aware of.

    When we believe the gospel we are justified in God’s sight because all of our sins are forgiven. This includes all those we will commit in the future as well as those in the past because God already knows what those sins will be.

    The final step in salvation is glorification, when the process of making us like Christ is completed. This will occur when Christ returns and takes the believers out in the rapture. Our bodies will be transformed to be like Christ’s body and the bodies of all believers who have died will be resurrected. Even though this is still in the future it is so certain that God speaks of it in the past tense as though it had already taken place.

    Some people believe that it is possible for a person to become a Christian and then lose his salvation and revert to an unsaved state. If you look as salvation as only being the person’s acceptance of Jesus as savior this could seem like a plausible belief. It is possible for someone to embrace a belief and later reject it so if our salvation was dependent only on our faith we could lose it. But if you look at the entire process you will see losing salvation is impossible. When we put our faith in Christ God already knows all that is ahead in our lives. He would never save us in the first place if he knew that we would turn away from him and be lost.

    About sixty years ago a detective story writer named Mickey Spillane was very popular. I recall reading an interview in which he described how he wrote his stories. He said that when he began a book he would write the last chapter first and then write the rest of the book to bring about the conclusion he had already written. This is the same way God works when he saves us. He decides that our final destiny will be to be glorified so that we will be like Christ and the rest of the process consists of bringing about this result. We can have complete confidence in our salvation because our last chapter has already been written by God.

    I am aware of one objection that might be raised at this point. All of us know about people who have made a profession of faith in Christ and then turned away from following him. Some of you who are reading this might be among them. Doesn’t this show that a person can become a Christian and then lose his salvation?

    This problem has come about because there are teachers and churches who teach a false way of salvation. This false teaching can take many forms. Some teach that something else, such as baptism or good works, is needed in addition to faith. Some teach salvation by faith but have an unbiblical idea of what faith is. The kind of faith which brings salvation involves a recognition that we have sinned and deserve to be punished but that Christ took the punishment we deserve. Some preachers fail to emphasize the fact that we are sinners and so many are led to profess faith without really repenting of their sins. The result of this false teaching is that there are many who sincerely believe that they are Christians when they aren’t. If they fall away from professing to be Christians it appears that they are losing their salvation when in fact they were never saved in the first place.

    I know from personal experience that what it is like to make a false profession of being a Christian. I have gone to church all my life but when I was young the church I attended wasn’t very Biblical in it teachings. I never was taught that salvation is by faith alone but thought that is was necessary to be baptized and them work to earn salvation. When I was 14 years old I was baptized and I thought that I was now a Christian. About two years later I had a Sunday school teacher who was really a Christian. She listened to a radio program called Back To The Bible and because of her recommendation I began listening too. As a result of the teaching I heard on the radio I finally came to understand that salvation is a free gift of God and I put my faith in Christ and for the first time really became a Christian.

    If I had not done this and at some future time had come to reject the truths I had learned about the Bible it would have seemed to others that I had been saved and had lost my salvation when in fact I would never have been saved in the first place. I am thankful that God didn’t allow this to happen but sent someone into my life who would guide me into the truth.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
    Leonard Ravenhill

    https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/

  • #2
    Originally posted by theophilus View Post
    When we think or talk about salvation we usually mean the process of having our sins forgiven by repenting of them and putting our faith in Jesus Christ. From the human point of view this is what salvation is but from God’s viewpoint this is only one of several steps. The complete process is described in Romans 8:29,30:
    Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

    We see that salvation consists of five steps: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification.

    The first step, foreknowledge, is the logical result of God’s omniscience. He knew even before he created us who would believe the gospel and who would reject it.

    He decided that those who believed the gospel were to be conformed to the image of Christ and so become part of God’s family. This decision is called predestination. He predestined those who believe to become like Christ but he didn’t predestine those who reject the gospel to any particular fate. The final destiny of the lost is simply the natural result of their own unbelief.

    The next step is calling those whom he has predestined. He does this thru the preaching of the gospel. He causes someone to tell them the gospel so they can believe it and be saved. From our point of view this seems to be the beginning of the salvation experience because it is the first one we are aware of.

    When we believe the gospel we are justified in God’s sight because all of our sins are forgiven. This includes all those we will commit in the future as well as those in the past because God already knows what those sins will be.

    The final step in salvation is glorification, when the process of making us like Christ is completed. This will occur when Christ returns and takes the believers out in the rapture. Our bodies will be transformed to be like Christ’s body and the bodies of all believers who have died will be resurrected. Even though this is still in the future it is so certain that God speaks of it in the past tense as though it had already taken place.

    Some people believe that it is possible for a person to become a Christian and then lose his salvation and revert to an unsaved state. If you look as salvation as only being the person’s acceptance of Jesus as savior this could seem like a plausible belief. It is possible for someone to embrace a belief and later reject it so if our salvation was dependent only on our faith we could lose it. But if you look at the entire process you will see losing salvation is impossible. When we put our faith in Christ God already knows all that is ahead in our lives. He would never save us in the first place if he knew that we would turn away from him and be lost.

    About sixty years ago a detective story writer named Mickey Spillane was very popular. I recall reading an interview in which he described how he wrote his stories. He said that when he began a book he would write the last chapter first and then write the rest of the book to bring about the conclusion he had already written. This is the same way God works when he saves us. He decides that our final destiny will be to be glorified so that we will be like Christ and the rest of the process consists of bringing about this result. We can have complete confidence in our salvation because our last chapter has already been written by God.

    I am aware of one objection that might be raised at this point. All of us know about people who have made a profession of faith in Christ and then turned away from following him. Some of you who are reading this might be among them. Doesn’t this show that a person can become a Christian and then lose his salvation?

    This problem has come about because there are teachers and churches who teach a false way of salvation. This false teaching can take many forms. Some teach that something else, such as baptism or good works, is needed in addition to faith. Some teach salvation by faith but have an unbiblical idea of what faith is. The kind of faith which brings salvation involves a recognition that we have sinned and deserve to be punished but that Christ took the punishment we deserve. Some preachers fail to emphasize the fact that we are sinners and so many are led to profess faith without really repenting of their sins. The result of this false teaching is that there are many who sincerely believe that they are Christians when they aren’t. If they fall away from professing to be Christians it appears that they are losing their salvation when in fact they were never saved in the first place.

    I know from personal experience that what it is like to make a false profession of being a Christian. I have gone to church all my life but when I was young the church I attended wasn’t very Biblical in it teachings. I never was taught that salvation is by faith alone but thought that is was necessary to be baptized and them work to earn salvation. When I was 14 years old I was baptized and I thought that I was now a Christian. About two years later I had a Sunday school teacher who was really a Christian. She listened to a radio program called Back To The Bible and because of her recommendation I began listening too. As a result of the teaching I heard on the radio I finally came to understand that salvation is a free gift of God and I put my faith in Christ and for the first time really became a Christian.

    If I had not done this and at some future time had come to reject the truths I had learned about the Bible it would have seemed to others that I had been saved and had lost my salvation when in fact I would never have been saved in the first place. I am thankful that God didn’t allow this to happen but sent someone into my life who would guide me into the truth.
    If they were never saved, then there is no such thing as apostasy.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by theophilus View Post
      When we think or talk about salvation we usually mean the process of having our sins forgiven by repenting of them and putting our faith in Jesus Christ. From the human point of view this is what salvation is but from God’s viewpoint this is only one of several steps. The complete process is described in Romans 8:29,30:
      Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

      We see that salvation consists of five steps: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification.

      The first step, foreknowledge, is the logical result of God’s omniscience. He knew even before he created us who would believe the gospel and who would reject it.

      He decided that those who believed the gospel were to be conformed to the image of Christ and so become part of God’s family. This decision is called predestination. He predestined those who believe to become like Christ but he didn’t predestine those who reject the gospel to any particular fate. The final destiny of the lost is simply the natural result of their own unbelief.

      The next step is calling those whom he has predestined. He does this thru the preaching of the gospel. He causes someone to tell them the gospel so they can believe it and be saved. From our point of view this seems to be the beginning of the salvation experience because it is the first one we are aware of.

      When we believe the gospel we are justified in God’s sight because all of our sins are forgiven. This includes all those we will commit in the future as well as those in the past because God already knows what those sins will be.

      The final step in salvation is glorification, when the process of making us like Christ is completed. This will occur when Christ returns and takes the believers out in the rapture. Our bodies will be transformed to be like Christ’s body and the bodies of all believers who have died will be resurrected. Even though this is still in the future it is so certain that God speaks of it in the past tense as though it had already taken place.

      Some people believe that it is possible for a person to become a Christian and then lose his salvation and revert to an unsaved state. If you look as salvation as only being the person’s acceptance of Jesus as savior this could seem like a plausible belief. It is possible for someone to embrace a belief and later reject it so if our salvation was dependent only on our faith we could lose it. But if you look at the entire process you will see losing salvation is impossible. When we put our faith in Christ God already knows all that is ahead in our lives. He would never save us in the first place if he knew that we would turn away from him and be lost.

      About sixty years ago a detective story writer named Mickey Spillane was very popular. I recall reading an interview in which he described how he wrote his stories. He said that when he began a book he would write the last chapter first and then write the rest of the book to bring about the conclusion he had already written. This is the same way God works when he saves us. He decides that our final destiny will be to be glorified so that we will be like Christ and the rest of the process consists of bringing about this result. We can have complete confidence in our salvation because our last chapter has already been written by God.

      I am aware of one objection that might be raised at this point. All of us know about people who have made a profession of faith in Christ and then turned away from following him. Some of you who are reading this might be among them. Doesn’t this show that a person can become a Christian and then lose his salvation?

      This problem has come about because there are teachers and churches who teach a false way of salvation. This false teaching can take many forms. Some teach that something else, such as baptism or good works, is needed in addition to faith. Some teach salvation by faith but have an unbiblical idea of what faith is. The kind of faith which brings salvation involves a recognition that we have sinned and deserve to be punished but that Christ took the punishment we deserve. Some preachers fail to emphasize the fact that we are sinners and so many are led to profess faith without really repenting of their sins. The result of this false teaching is that there are many who sincerely believe that they are Christians when they aren’t. If they fall away from professing to be Christians it appears that they are losing their salvation when in fact they were never saved in the first place.

      I know from personal experience that what it is like to make a false profession of being a Christian. I have gone to church all my life but when I was young the church I attended wasn’t very Biblical in it teachings. I never was taught that salvation is by faith alone but thought that is was necessary to be baptized and them work to earn salvation. When I was 14 years old I was baptized and I thought that I was now a Christian. About two years later I had a Sunday school teacher who was really a Christian. She listened to a radio program called Back To The Bible and because of her recommendation I began listening too. As a result of the teaching I heard on the radio I finally came to understand that salvation is a free gift of God and I put my faith in Christ and for the first time really became a Christian.

      If I had not done this and at some future time had come to reject the truths I had learned about the Bible it would have seemed to others that I had been saved and had lost my salvation when in fact I would never have been saved in the first place. I am thankful that God didn’t allow this to happen but sent someone into my life who would guide me into the truth.
      First of all, I congratulate you on your decision to accept the free gift of grace unto salvation!

      However, in context, I for one do not believe that Romans 8:29,30 speaks to individual salvation. In context (indeed throughout the whole Book of Romans) the context is speaking to corporate salvation of the Gentiles along with the Jews, (who were "Gods Chosen People") Romans 8:29,30 lets us know that as the Church, we gentiles are also rightful heirs of God and will be transformed into the Likeness of Christ.
      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
        First of all, I congratulate you on your decision to accept the free gift of grace unto salvation!

        However, in context, I for one do not believe that Romans 8:29,30 speaks to individual salvation. In context (indeed throughout the whole Book of Romans) the context is speaking to corporate salvation of the Gentiles along with the Jews, (who were "Gods Chosen People") Romans 8:29,30 lets us know that as the Church, we gentiles are also rightful heirs of God and will be transformed into the Likeness of Christ.
        You believe incorrectly about Romans 8:29, 30. Let's look at it:

        Beginning with verse 28, ". . . we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. . . ."

        . . . called according to [His] purpose. . . . The calling is God's choice.

        Verse 29, ". . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. . . ."

        Now "whom" is the group and "foreknow" is the individual [third person singular] in that group.

        [I am neither Arminian or Calvinist, my view is more Calvinistic though.] Foreknow refers to God's relationship with the individual. For those who have not yet accepted Christ as Savior this is yet future for them. [BTW God's foreknowledge is through the sanctification work of the Holy Spirit. 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13. ]

        The purpose of God predestinating the individual for what is stated, to be conformed to the image of His Son. Again "predestinate" is in the third person singular. This sets what God is going to do according to His purpose, as just explained in the text (v.28). So the following things which take place in the group is a sure thing for each individual in the group, from God's point of view.

        Verse 30, ". . . Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. . . ." Again "them" the group, and what is sure from God's view upon the individual.

        . . . called . . . is third person singular. . . . justified . . . is third person singular. . . . glorified . . . is third person singular. None of us yet are glorified. For us it is future (Romans 8:23; 1 John 3:2). But in God's foreknowledge it is a done deal.
        Last edited by 37818; 11-04-2015, 09:25 PM.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment

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