Masturbation...but what if?

[Glory2Him]

I understand that masterbation is wrong because of the lusting in the heart, and it is written, that "he who lusts after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart." But what if my wife isn't home and, well, I need to blow off some steam as it were. If I imagine my wife, how am I committing adultury in my heart? Is there another reason why it's wrong?

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Two things:

1) It's spelt masturbation.

and 2)....

This topic is fine in and of itself. But because of its nature, let's make an effort to keep it clean. The black helicopters are watching you.

[Tladatsi]

I understand that masterbation is wrong because of the lusting in the heart, and it is written, that "he who lusts after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart." But what if my wife isn't home and, well, I need to blow off some steam as it were. If I imagine my wife, how am I committing adultury in my heart? Is there another reason why it's wrong?

No, it is not adultery to lust after your own wife.

]Please review rules for posting in Christian only sections. Thanks.

[Shadow Phoenix]

I understand that masterbation is wrong because of the lusting in the heart, and it is written, that "he who lusts after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart." But what if my wife isn't home and, well, I need to blow off some steam as it were. If I imagine my wife, how am I committing adultury in my heart? Is there another reason why it's wrong?

One of the purposes of marriage I believe is to satisfy the desire for sex. There is nothing wrong with getting married because you want to have sex. (Now if that's your only reason, there's a problem. I believe this thing called "love" should play a part as well.) Marriage is a lot about desire though and part of that desire is sex.

Now I'm not married, but I'm thinking about self-control. Is it not important to learn to pacify your desires when they cannot be fulfilled? Paul did tell us that separation is good for a time, but it is good only for a time. You should not remain separated. (I do think missionaries are wrong who go out to the mission field and leave their wives behind. It's kind of hard to fulfill that marital obligation.)

It's also how you view your wife? Is she someone you just keep around for sex? Is there not more to her than that? Honestly, when I get married, I definitely plan on enjoying sex with my wife and enjoying it immensely. However, if I knew she was going to be away or I was going to be away for a short time and I had the desire, I wouldn't do something to alleviate it. I'd enjoy it and just think, "When we get back together, we are going to have an awesome time."

Ultimately, are you treating her like a person or like a function?

[Rusty T]

What's wrong with waiting until your wife gets home?

[Spinyn00bman]

This topic has been beat to death (no pun intended) many times before.

[RCNicholas]

I understand that masterbation is wrong because of the lusting in the heart, and it is written, that "he who lusts after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart." But what if my wife isn't home and, well, I need to blow off some steam as it were. If I imagine my wife, how am I committing adultury in my heart? Is there another reason why it's wrong?IN that case, masturbation is wrong because you have separated the sexual act from sole union with your wife. You're simply masturbating for selfish reasons, not as a union in procreative love with your wife.

[Darth Executor]

What's wrong with waiting until your wife gets home?

Exactly. Some of us still have to wait God knows how long before we even get a wife.

[Rusty T]

This topic has been beat to death (no pun intended) many times before.

Whatever . . . 'no pun intended'. Sure. :smile:

[Tlalynet]

OT demands you clean up your spill, otherwise there arn't any prohibitions concerning the issue other than Chrsitian Kosher that pops up time to time. Sometimes husbands and wives have different labidos, this is a good way to deal with it. As for the dont lust, that still stands, dont picture the girl you saw in a bakini if you can avoid it, think about something else. If your married you already have something nice to think about. If your single make something up.
No point in puting a boulder around peoples necks for no reason. If it Does have a bad effect on you for some reason then (like anything else taht has a bad effect) consider that, but othewise, relax.

[Soyeong]

If you are a man of excessive sexual energy and you were with your wife, but for some reason she was unable to have sex with you and she consented, then I think it would be ok to masturbate in front of her. There might be a few other circumstances, but there is no place where masturbation is specifically said to be a sin, so what I think is important is that your heart and mind are in the right place.

[themuzicman]

Isn't it possible to masturbate without lust?

[Ecualegacy]

Isn't it possible to masturbate without lust?

Yes, but with the human tendency to abhore the same old thing, it takes some discipline to not go fantasizing about that which one shouldn't.

[TuckEverlasting]

Rut roh! (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=45330&highlight=bidness) :aah:

[Rayado]

Actually, Tuck, the thread you linked to was of a totally different nature than this one. This one is at least halfway serious.

[TuckEverlasting]

So was the other one! :lol:

[Chocobear]

(I do think missionaries are wrong who go out to the mission field and leave their wives behind. It's kind of hard to fulfill that marital obligation.)

I know several men who are married, who go on missionary trips, and they were called by God to participate in these trips. So if they're called by God to do this, then it's not wrong. Not only that, but He will give the husbands and the wives the strength they need to remain faithful to one another.

Exactly. Some of us still have to wait God knows how long before we even get a wife.

Or a husband. Don't forget there are some ladies here who are still single.

[Brandalf85]

I actually read a counseling book on this issue...well a chapter in the book on it. Note it is a Christian counseling book.

Basically the subject came up and in the end there was no real answer. He gave a possible scenario in which the wife was left at home while the husband was serving overseas in the military and perhaps it will be 5 years or something til she sees him again.

The same question posed there is the same one here: would it be a sin for the wife to masturbate thinking of her husband? People do have needs and no you shouldn't view your husband or wife as just that.

Thought I would add that. I wonder what you guys think of that scenario. Could you wait 5 years or more without seeing them at all?

[timspong]

Christianity isn't a legalistic religion and contrary to popular christian thought, there are no hard and fast rules.

The Holy Spirit works on your conscience. As you mature in Christ your conscience will become more godly and will tend to raise the bar for what you consider to be appropriate behavior. I.e. by prayer and supplication you need to decide for yourself.

For some it violates their conscience for others it does not.

It is also cannot be used as a measure of maturity either as at some point your conscience may declare it to be okay, then as you mature a bit it becomes not okay and then you mature a bit more and it may become okay again. God is the ultimate teacher and we are all on different paths with different purposes and different syllabuses.

Beware of the creeping legalism that the carnal mind always seems to crave.


I though it was interesting that there were over 1000 views and only 17 replys. :whistle:

[Sheepdog]

I believe it was C.S. Lewis who pointed out the paradoxal nature of sexual indulgence: the more you feed that hunger, the less satisfied it becomes.

I would identify the act of lust itself as the sin. I think that is beyond dispute among all but the most fringe Christians. But what isn't talked about as much is the addictive nature, or how it adds to a sex drive already in overdrive from a sexually stimulating media culture.

I don't know if you can masturbate without lust. Even if you aren't lusting right that the moment, it begs the question if the desire to do so wasn't brought on by lust from earlier in the day. Stone walls take time to whittle away at.

[Chocobear]

I advise you to ask yourself the following questions:

1.) Does this dishonor my wife? Does this turn her into a sex object?

2.) Am I expressing my love for her, or am I just seeking a few moments' worth of pleasure before she gets home?

3.) Will this take away from the time we spend together in the bedroom?

Personally, I believe masturbation is a sin. However, you need to spend some time alone with God (away from distractions) and ask Him if pleasuring yourself dishonors Him, as well as your wife. If the answer is yes, do whatever you have to to prevent yourself from giving into the temptation.

Also, remember to read the following verses from 1 Corinthians 6 -

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power. (vv. 12-14)

Ask God these questions: Just because I have the ability to masturbate, does it mean I should ... even when I'm imagining being with my wife? Is what I'm doing sexually immoral?

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? ... But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s. (vv. 15, 17-20)

[wowmy_sn]

So does this mean masturbation is fine as long as you don't fantasize, because it sounds that way to me?

Personally, I think masturbation is normal and fine but if it goes against your morals, don't do it. Just my opinion, obviously...

This area is for those who adhere to Christianity only

[SinikalSaint]

With all due respect and appreciation for my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ honestly discussing, here, I think most of the responses and even this whole thread seems to be founded upon a dishearteningly forensic approach to Scripture and Biblical ethics. Far be it from me to claim that I have a greater understanding of Scripture than anyone here, or a better grasp of proper ethical behavior for Christians, but my own view of this--and most--topics of ethics would be quite close to "timspong's" view. That is, there really isn't a hard and fast rule regarding it, and that it's mostly a matter of conscience as informed by the Holy Spirit. This could possibly mean that it's actually okay for some and not okay for others, which is just the sort of conclusion many Christians can't stand because it seems to smack of defiance against objective morality.

Fact of the matter is, some people just have a greater sex drive than others, with or without lots of external stimulation (with which our culture is, of course, rife); and some just have differing drives. I suspect--and am more than willing to be corrected--that most here who are quick to say masturbation is unequivocally sinful and try to bolster their cases with talk about waiting for one's spouse are those who don't have a particularly difficult time resisting the urge for sexual gratification. Likewise, those quick to sing masturbation's glory (of which there seem to be precious few--if any--in this thread) seem to be those have a particularly difficult time not resisting.

The matter, as has been mentioned plenty before, boils down to lusting, not so much the act itself. What constitutes lusting?

And we do love to use Matthew 5:32 to talk about this, don't we? As if that pretty much clears up the whole matter. It is a good verse to refer to, and Jesus is talking here about how sin--as well as righteousness--begins, and is centered in, anchored in, the heart. What it tells us is that if a man looks at a woman to desire her, he has turned his heart from his wife, and so in his heart has committed adultery.

The question becomes, I believe, if you masturbate, what's your heart set on? I know it's a funny question, one that seems a bit difficult to take seriously; but that's basically what we're asking here. I don't think it does much good to talk about how it's "selfish because you're seeking sexual gratification outside of marriage." One, it is "selfish," but no more inherently selfish than eating an ice cream cone while sitting on a porch on a hot summer afternoon, or walking through the park through a cool autumn breeze, or sitting on a hill watching a sunrise. Yeah, I know... I generally roll my eyes at this kind of pseudo-intellectual sentimentalizing myself, and it seems a bit of a stretch to equate healthy pleasures of rest and nature with physically stimulating one's self. But my point is that many pleasures that we have are "self-gratifying," and so why is masturbation different?

[draw2much]

I don't think masturbation can be proven wrong Biblically unless you're lusting (covetousness) while doing it. But you can't always equate masturbation with lusting. Sometimes masturbation is just a desperate attempt to release pent up sexual "frustration". That's not the same as lusting.

Generally speaking, married men (and women!) masturbate because something is "wrong" morally or situationally in their marriage bed. Sometimes this is because one or both people have an incorrect view of sex ("it's about satisfying me", "I don't feel like it", etc). However, sometimes it's because of separation or sickness which the couple has little to no control over.

I've experienced both, the last most frequently. My husband is enlisted USAF, goes on deployments almost every year, is TDY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TDY)'ed during our anniversary month, and frequently working such long hours that I'm just happy to have coherent conversation with him at the end of the day. And this year, on top of ALL OF THAT, I got sick with pneumonia for almost two months! Sometimes it feels like we don't actually HAVE a love life.... :sad:

This is all to say that I don't believe masturbation is wrong under certain circumstances. If my husband is in the desert for months on end, I'm not gonna begrudge him masturbating to relieve his sexual frustration. (His body misses me and personally I see it as a compliment...) Nor do I begrudge him if I'm sick for a long period of time and have no way to satisfy him.

But if he's doing it when I'm around and personally capable of meeting his needs? YES, I take issue with that. It's insulting to me as a wife that he won't come to me with his need. It's like he's saying I'm just not good enough for him, so he has to do it himself. It's a personal snub on "my honor".

From the posting I've seen about this issue, I'm in the minority in my thinking on this issue. Perhaps it's the unique position being a military wife... I don't have the luxury to condemn masturbation. In many ways it's the only way to deal with the long absences we both suffer through. :shrug:

[spitndirt]

....and what if....

One's spouse is without a libido due to having her female innards removed? Talk about a dilemma.....need sex.....wife says "NO"......won't cheat.....suffering pent up frustration.....need release.....pray three times to have own libido removed....turning every known shade of blue....might cheat, NOOO I WON'T!!!.......Honey, PLEASE......what part of NO don't you understand....ummm, primarily the N but the O is giving me trouble as well....entering the unknown shades of blue and getting heavier too.....pray three more times (once for me, once for her, and once for a new wife)....gonna explode.....HONEY PLEASE...... NOOOO, take care of it yourself and LEAVE ME ALONE......finally harken to wife's voice....wife asks to watch....NOOOO you *&^%*&*&^ freak....cycle ends only to start all over again.....

Get the picture? Tell me.... what's a guy to do???? Which does God hate more....divorce, adultery, or an O so occasional loss of self control (in order to avoid the other options)? Which is the lesser of the evils?

[Xmansmommy]

....and what if....

One's spouse is without a libido due to having her female innards removed? Talk about a dilemma.....need sex.....wife says "NO"......won't cheat.....suffering pent up frustration.....need release.....pray three times to have own libido removed....turning every known shade of blue....might cheat, NOOO I WON'T!!!.......Honey, PLEASE......what part of NO don't you understand....ummm, primarily the N but the O is giving me trouble as well....entering the unknown shades of blue and getting heavier too.....pray three more times (once for me, once for her, and once for a new wife)....gonna explode.....HONEY PLEASE...... NOOOO, take care of it yourself and LEAVE ME ALONE......finally harken to wife's voice....wife asks to watch....NOOOO you *&^%*&*&^ freak....cycle ends only to start all over again.....

Get the picture? Tell me.... what's a guy to do???? Which does God hate more....divorce, adultery, or an O so occasional loss of self control (in order to avoid the other options)? Which is the lesser of the evils?

Excellent points! I am curious to know why a woman would be considered a freak if she wanted to watch?

I think some of the same questions apply to single people as well. Which is the lesser of two evils? The big M or going out and having sex with someone you aren't married to? It's easy for people to say that single people shouldn't, but God did make us with inherent sexual desires and I don't think He expects us to never (or for extremely long periods of time such as while waiting years to find a spouse) act on them in any way. I have a feeling He is a bit more understanding on this issue than most of us realize.

[spitndirt]

Excellent points! I am curious to know why a woman would be considered a freak if she wanted to watch?

Hi Xmansmommy,

Thanks. And normally I wouldn't consider it freakish that she would want to watch (if it were a small part of a grander level of intimacy). But under the stated circumstances it aint gonna happen. If there's no libido present then she's being a bit freakish about it. She must have ulterior motives....like rubbing it in that she is able to reduce me to a steaming pile of out of control hormones.

I think some of the same questions apply to single people as well. Which is the lesser of two evils? The big M or going out and having sex with someone you aren't married to? It's easy for people to say that single people shouldn't, but God did make us with inherent sexual desires and I don't think He expects us to never (or for extremely long periods of time such as while waiting years to find a spouse) act on them in any way. I have a feeling He is a bit more understanding on this issue than most of us realize.

I agree...and I pray that you are right. Cuz I certainly don't feel right about my own situation. And now I've said way too much....:blush:

Thanks for your reply

[SinikalSaint]

Draw2Much, Spitndirt, and Xmans (say all that three times fast), I'm thinking I agree with y'all. All my wordy posturing is basically an attempt to elucidate my understanding that the sin associated with masturbation--that is, lust--is not integral to it. Understandably, there's a tendency to lump together masturbation with sinful lust (not to mention pornography), and this is where the aversion tends to come from. A biblical understanding of lust would not (necessarily) be a desire for sexual intimacy or sexual gratification in and of itself; but rather, covetousness--particularly covetousness objectifying and/or at the expense of another person, or at the expense of obedience to God. If you're masturbating as a means to indulge a covetous desire for a person, that is sinful (this as opposed to a sincere erotic desire--a loving desire for intimacy with a person, i.e. your spouse). If you're masturbating as a means to slake (or maybe even explore, within boundaries) sexual desires in and of themselves, provided you're not shirking other things (doing it when you're supposed to be working, or taking care of your kids, or praying, or some such) or something like that, I don't see how that's necessarily sinful. Because you're not coveting anyone.

[spitndirt]

Draw2Much, Spitndirt, and Xmans (say all that three times fast), I'm thinking I agree with y'all. All my wordy posturing is basically an attempt to elucidate my understanding that the sin associated with masturbation--that is, lust--is not integral to it. Understandably, there's a tendency to lump together masturbation with sinful lust (not to mention pornography), and this is where the aversion tends to come from. A biblical understanding of lust would not (necessarily) be a desire for sexual intimacy or sexual gratification in and of itself; but rather, covetousness--particularly covetousness objectifying and/or at the expense of another person, or at the expense of obedience to God. If you're masturbating as a means to indulge a covetous desire for a person, that is sinful (this as opposed to a sincere erotic desire--a loving desire for intimacy with a person, i.e. your spouse). If you're masturbating as a means to slake (or maybe even explore, within boundaries) sexual desires in and of themselves, provided you're not shirking other things (doing it when you're supposed to be working, or taking care of your kids, or praying, or some such) or something like that, I don't see how that's necessarily sinful. Because you're not coveting anyone.

Hello SinikalSaint,

Yes...I tend to make the same distinctions that you are making. Mainly due to my own predicament. Yet I still remain uncertain about things of this nature.....whether I am truly and without bias distinguishing between things or simply trying to justify myself. Truth is, I would never resort to such a thing as we're discussing if I could find another way out. I will never initiate a divorce and will never cheat because I fear God and agree with Him (in my heart) that these things are not right. My wife is willing to remain with me and so I must not (and don't wish to) forsake her (or my broader family) in any way. Divorce and adultery clearly go against true love and commitment. And yet all of this leaves me in a place of ....well, anguish really. I am left to do what I hate so that I might maintain an ability to refrain from doing what I hate even more. I simply do not posses the power of true celibacy.....something that would solve my whole dilemma. So...I'm stuck it seems. Or I suppose I could just come to terms with, and accept, my situation "as is". But I find this to be impossible.....where would be the hope in it? Besides, the whole masterbation thing is a bit emasculating really. What I really need is a woman. One that is there for the taking, I mean. And this woman must be my wife. I yearn for her.

By the way, I normally try and stay away from these sorts of discussions. Y'all caught me in a funk of sorts I guess. Anyway.....time to shut up now.

Later.....

[Xmansmommy]

Hi Xmansmommy,

Thanks. And normally I wouldn't consider it freakish that she would want to watch (if it were a small part of a grander level of intimacy). But under the stated circumstances it aint gonna happen. If there's no libido present then she's being a bit freakish about it. She must have ulterior motives....like rubbing it in that she is able to reduce me to a steaming pile of out of control hormones.

Yes, I considered that as I read and before I commented but wanted to make sure I did understand. And I agree with your assessment.

I agree...and I pray that you are right. Cuz I certainly don't feel right about my own situation. And now I've said way too much....:blush:

Thanks for your reply

You're welcome. It can be a bit difficult to discuss these things openly but I applaud you and others for the attempts. :smile:

[draw2much]

:sad:

Like I said, masturbation can be caused by marital problems. I'm going to give some unasked for advice and hope it helps someone reading.

This is my understanding: married men view sex in the same way as women view communication. If you never talked to your wife, it would show a decided lack of love and interest in her well being. In the same way, marital sex shows a man that he is loved, respected, and wanted. When a wife constantly rejects her husband sexually, she's telling him "I don't care if you feel unloved, unwanted, and worthless. I only care about what I want and feel."

The flip side of this is that a wife who constantly rejects her husband is a sure sign that something is wrong. The man should closely examine himself FIRST to see if he's not the cause of the problem. A women who feels guilty, unloved, ugly and/or seriously stressed will not want to have ANYTHING to do with sex. Men will often respond or act in such a way as to cause any of those things. Some serious self examination and honest inquiries to his wife might help...

Single guys are a different story all together. I always viewed masturbation as the "lesser of two evils" (as someone already mention). I'd rather a guy masturbate than sleep around.

But... I think a singe guy should be very careful though. It should be like taking pain relief medication... only take the stuff when there's a real need and if you have no other choice. Over medicating can kill or simply make you immune to the good effects of the medication. In the same way masturbation done without any self control can eventually lead to sexually awkward and hurtful situations with a loving spouse in the future.

Well, there. I've talked a lot about this.

[Sheepdog]

Frankly, I don't care for much of the pragmatic reasoning I see when this subject comes up. But What If's are secondary until you establish the principals you ground your morals in.

Now that said, I must confess that I almost took a 180 on this subject since the last time I posted in this thread. Almost. I'm now of the conclusion that masturbation, sexual fantasy, and sexual arousal are not wrong so long as at least two conditions are met: (1) You are not coveting someone or something that belongs to or is entitled solely to someone else, and (2) the acts in question don't cause strife in any of your relationships (especially with one's spouce). It's worth pointing out that with the first caveat, the problem of covetry isn't so much a desire, but the intent to do something illicit to get what you want.

What I'll do is repost what I said in another thread of similar topic (it went on more about porn, which is another issue):


What are you're thoughts on Porn and Masturbation? I follow along the lines of XXXChurch, I believe that porn and masturbation is sin, but that sin no matter how great can be forgiven.

What do you think about the whole Jesus loves pornstars? I think it's great that ministries are starting to come out reaching people. Or even books like Every Man's Battle

Every Man's Battle, like the Purpose Driven Church, is a marketting ploy. It's a marketing ploy to make money off of legitimate struggles of Christians against sex addiction.

I don't know much about Jesus Loves Pornstars. XXXChurch is alright from what I can tell.

Why porn/lust/masturbation is wrong

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Matthew 5:28

What does it mean to look at a woman lustfully? You have to be precise and define these things, otherwise you end up with bad exegesis.

Let's get precise:

1. In context of the Sermon on the Mount, this would be the only moral command that exclusively deals with one's internal thought life, if we accept the common interpretation. Most other points deal with conduct towards other people and to God. Now, Jesus does address the internal feelings of anger (v. 22) and hatred (43). However, even with these he is concerned with the outward result of these emotions. Jesus' prescription for anger is to reconcile with the brother one is angry at before even performing the ritual, Jewish sacrifices. Likewise, Jesus appeals to God's raising the sun and sending rain for good people and evil alike, as an illustration of loving your enemies in action. It's probably not healthy to stew in anger and hatred, but the concern here would seem to be what outward actions these emotions lead to when unchecked.

2. The Greek word translated "lust" in several translations is actually a more vague term for "desire." The literal rendition of the passage would be "...anyone who looks at a woman to desire her..." The same word is used elsewhere, both of good and bad desires. For instance, Paul uses the same word in saying that it is a good work to *desire* to want to be a church leader (1Tim 3:1). This is one of those words where the context it is found in shapes the connotation and meaning. And in the context of the topic of adultery, wouldn't the best understanding be that this is about desiring an adulterous relationship?

3. More on the point of 2, Jesus' wording is very explicative: "...whoever looks at a woman to desire her..." (NET) The issue is looking at a specific woman to "desire" her. Maybe I'm missing something, but the language is too narrow to be talking about arousal in general.

4. More to the point of 2 and 3, in the Judaic tradition, would we expect Jesus to say something novel, or rehash established OT principles over and against contemporary misunderstandings? We already have a precedent in the tenth commandment: "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife..." Exodus 20:17. Indeed the same word for "desire" is used in the LXX version of the commandment to translate “to covet,” as well as Paul's quotes of the commandment in Romans 7:7 and 13:9. We could rightly interpret Matthew 5:28, "Anyone who covets a woman has already committed adultery." This is important because there is a significant difference between simply wanting something, and specifically wanting to take something your neighbor owns or is exclusively entitled to.

5. Jesus response to the sin of "lust" is rather harsh. Now, I'm assuming that since there are no eyeless, handless guys here, we can agree that Jesus is being hyperbolic about offing body parts. However, the meaning is clear that we are to excise from our lives stumbling blocks that may cause us to commit this sin. If the problem was one's private thought life itself, how are we to "cut that off"? A frontal lobotomy?

6. I am not a Greek expert, which is why I am really not confident on commenting on the original Greek. However I am not alone:

Jesus does not, of course, refer here to passing attraction. The Greek tense probably suggests 'the deliberate harboring of desire for an illicit relationship' (France 1985:121). In our culture, where young people generally have to arrange their marriages without their parents' help, we might be in trouble if Jesus meant mere attraction! Jesus refers not to noticing a person's beauty but to imbibing it, meditating on it, seeking to possess it. (IVP New Testament Commentary on Matthew 5:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/index.php?action=getCommentaryText&cid=1&source=1&seq=i.47.5.9))

Epithymia/epithymeo, which is the key concept and virtually incorporates the other concepts in the various passages, indicates basically simply desire. In sinful people the desire becomes inordinate or is set over against God and thus becomes sinful or is directed to that which is sinful. Thus, the term is used for covetousness (Rom. 7:7; 13:9) or for those things that choke out the word of the gospel (Mark 4:19; cf. Luke 8:14, hedone), and is often indicated to be sinful by the object stated or the adjective supplied or qualification given.
(Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, p 717.)

While none of these considerations are a slam dunk, they lead me to conclude that the best interpretation for the passage is that Jesus is speaking out against a coveting desire for a specific woman (or man), viz. another person's spouse; it is not about sexual attraction in general, other than that specific situation. Some may question what the difference is. It's the same sort of difference between wanting an XBOX 360, and particularly wanting your buddy's XBOX 360 to the extent that you are intent to steal it.


1 Corinthians 6:18


Acts 15:29


Ephesians 5:3-14

Ah yes, a sampling of the "sexual immorality" verses. Every Man's Battle presents a better list, every bit as much taken out of context. But what is sexual immorality? Like Steve Arterburn and his cronies you left it undefined.

“Sexual immorality” is a container phrase, a sort of category if sins. These passages have to be understood in the context of what the Scripture as a whole says are sexual sins. Most sexual acts that are explicitly called sin involve acts with other people, like adultery or prostitution. The only exception to this that I'm aware of is what we already talked about: coveting another person's spouse. If there are other thoughts or deeds considered to be sexual immorality, the Bible doesn't make an effort to explicate that. As such, to add to the Biblical definition of sexual immorality is to add needless rules to Christ's moral law. This is the sin of the Pharisees, that they added rules to the law that even they couldn't bear.

Romans 12:1-2


James 4:17


2 Timothy 2:22


Acts 15:29

All about love

John 3:16


Romans 14:9-12


Galatians 5:6


Luke 19:10

I don't see the pertinence in any of these passages, aside from Acts 15:29 which you already quoted earlier. We have a handful of passages that warn about not sinning, or otherwise being right before God, but unless you show that wantan sexual arousal as sin, you are begging the question. If masturbation or sexual arousal in general are bad, they are no worse than wasting away a Saturday playing video games or watching football. And frankly, I'd be more concerned about the latter.


Now, that is not to say that there isn't a case to be made against porn. Many of the people involved in producing porn destroy themselves in the process. Much like goods made by children in sweat shops over seas, it behooves a Christian to work against such an industry, or at the very least not support it by funding it. There are other things that can be said here, but my point is that the Scriptural case typically made will not fly. It creates an artificial and unjustified burden that many people (not just guys) can never live up to.

[draw2much]

Undying, Did you post this somewhere else? I swear I've read this before!! *Serious deja vu*

I pretty well agree with what you said.

[JB]

Undying, Did you post this somewhere else? I swear I've read this before!! *Serious deja vu*

:wink:

What I'll do is repost what I said in another thread of similar topic (it went on more about porn, which is another issue)

[draw2much]

Ah I missed that part about reposting... sorry... :blush:

[Littlejoe9763]

....and what if....

One's spouse is without a libido due to having her female innards removed? Talk about a dilemma.....need sex.....wife says "NO"......won't cheat.....suffering pent up frustration.....need release.....pray three times to have own libido removed....turning every known shade of blue....might cheat, NOOO I WON'T!!!.......Honey, PLEASE......what part of NO don't you understand....ummm, primarily the N but the O is giving me trouble as well....entering the unknown shades of blue and getting heavier too.....pray three more times (once for me, once for her, and once for a new wife)....gonna explode.....HONEY PLEASE...... NOOOO, take care of it yourself and LEAVE ME ALONE......finally harken to wife's voice....wife asks to watch....NOOOO you *&^%*&*&^ freak....cycle ends only to start all over again.....

Get the picture? Tell me.... what's a guy to do???? Which does God hate more....divorce, adultery, or an O so occasional loss of self control (in order to avoid the other options)? Which is the lesser of the evils?

Hey Spit!

My impressions are that your Wife is behaving unbiblically IMO. In 1 Cor 7, Paul tells us that our bodies belong to each other, not just to ourselves. That withholding intimacy from one another is wrong. You don't say whether your wife is a christian also, so it's hard to say what to do if she is not. But what does your wife think is your expression of love to her? What says "I love you" in her language? In Gary Chapmans book "The Five Love Languages" he lists what he feels are the five basic ways people generally and couples specifically express love. They are:

1) Words of Affirmation,
This is when you say how nice your spouse looks, or how great the dinner tasted. Words that will build your mate's self image and confidence.

2) Quality Time
Some spouses believe that being together, doing things together and focusing in on one another is the best way to show love.

3) Giving Gifts
It is universal in human cultures to give gifts. They don't have to be expensive to send a powerful message of love

4) Acts of Service
Discovering how you can best do something for your spouse like vacuuming, hanging a bird feeder, planting a garden, etc.

5) Physical Touch
Sometimes just stroking your spouse's back, holding hands, or a peck on the cheek will fulfill this need. (for most men, this doesn't cut it...and some women also! :lol: )

Now, say that your wife feels you expressing love to her when you set on the couch and talk, go to a show together, just spending quality time with her. How long would she stay around if every day you started coming home and locking yourself in the basement (or garage, or bedroom, whatever) and working on whatever, eat dinner in silence, not answering any of her questions. watch TV in a seperate room, then go to bed without saying so much a one word to her for weeks, months, years on end? How long before she got tired of that and moved out (or moved you out)? To many men, intimacy (i.e. sex) equals an expression of love AND acceptance. We don't deal well with being told that we are not loved and accepted by our spouse. It's likely that your wife, who has a different love language, just flat doesn't realize how important it is to you. Because it's not to her! There are Hormone replacement Therapies available from her doctor that would help her situation. But the important thing is your wife needs to know how vitally important it is to you and your marriage. Again, I don't know all your situation, but, I know if my wife were to completely cut off all sex, (when she is physically capable of it) I would do whatever it took to make sure she understood the importance. My suggestion is to find what your wife's love language is and deprive her of it (for a short time) to show her what it's like. (Not in a mean or spiteful way) because it's obvious from your post that talking to her about it is not going to accomplish it.

Hope I'm not way out of line here....but what can I say....I'm not a big fan of divorce either. :shrug: But withholding something as vital as sexual intimacy from a marriage ...just cuz ...is in my opinion a serious thing. I'm probably going to get blasted here, but here it goes....I think that what your wife is doing is akin to spousal abuse...at least as bad as verbal abuse...maybe not as bad physical abuse. (Let the condemnations begin :lol: )

LJ

[spitndirt]

Hi LJ, thanks for your input brother.

Hey Spit!

My impressions are that your Wife is behaving unbiblically IMO. In 1 Cor 7, Paul tells us that our bodies belong to each other, not just to ourselves. That withholding intimacy from one another is wrong. You don't say whether your wife is a christian also, so it's hard to say what to do if she is not.

Yes...she is behaving unbiblically. Yet the change in her came when she had her female parts removed (hysterechtomy, sp?). So it is for the most part a physiological thing. Can't hardly hold her accountable for that.

As for her faith. This is a good question. She believes that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for the sins of the world and was raised from the dead. Having said this I think that her Lutheran upbringing pretty much messed her up. She is extremely fatalistic in her view of salvation. One of her favorite things to say is "...God already knows when I'm going to die, where I'm going...etc.etc...." - as if she's powerless to do anything positive that will make any kind of difference at all. She's always been like this when it comes to the faith. I try to talk her out of her fatalism but it hasn't helped much (yet).

But what does your wife think is your expression of love to her? What says "I love you" in her language? In Gary Chapmans book "The Five Love Languages" he lists what he feels are the five basic ways people generally and couples specifically express love. They are:

1) Words of Affirmation,
This is when you say how nice your spouse looks, or how great the dinner tasted. Words that will build your mate's self image and confidence.

I get an "A+" here. Yet she rarely believes me. She thinks I'm just being nice.

2) Quality Time
Some spouses believe that being together, doing things together and focusing in on one another is the best way to show love.

I would get a "B" on this one. Spend alot of time on Tweb some days. When I'm not Twebbing we hang out and do things together. Yet even in this she always thinks I would rather be doing something else. But that's rarely true (sometimes I would rather be Twebbing). I can't win it seems.

3) Giving Gifts
It is universal in human cultures to give gifts. They don't have to be expensive to send a powerful message of love

Hmmm.....not so good at this one. My idea of getting her stuff is to simply let her get what she wants. I seem to never know what that is at any given moment. Of course "jewelry" works. I do buy her "bling" on occasion.

4) Acts of Service
Discovering how you can best do something for your spouse like vacuuming, hanging a bird feeder, planting a garden, etc.

Yes...we share duties. Although we usually seperate things down male and female lines. All in all, though, the work is evenly shared. Except, maybe, when the grandkids are over. I usually keep them occupied when they're around (diaper changes and all). I love kids.....my wife has a limited supply of patience at times.

5) Physical Touch
Sometimes just stroking your spouse's back, holding hands, or a peck on the cheek will fulfill this need. (for most men, this doesn't cut it...and some women also! :lol: )

And here's where the trouble starts. I can't touch her anymore without her thinking I wan't sex. I mean, I have a healthy libido and all..... but I'm also 46 yrs old. I'm not as good as I once was....but I'm as good "once" as I ever was...:lol:.

Also, I hope I haven't left the impression that I'm going completely without. 4 out of 5 times I have my way of prevailing where sex is concerned. It's that 5th time that does me in. That one can last for a few months (and I just cant). The thing is, though, even when I get my way I'm put on a time limit and a "no kissing" rule is strictly enforced (another post-surgery casualty). Reminds me of a place in Nevada I visited a couple of times when I was young, single, and in the service (pre-conversion of course). And another impression I don't want to leave is that my wife is a bad person. She is not. She is a very suitable spouse to me in every way except this one....and she's not entirely to blame for her lack of sex drive (and all that is associated with it). I do understand her perdicament....it's just that my understanding it doesn't make it any easier.

So...in a sense it is not entirely the physical aspect of sex that is lacking. What I miss most is "the rest" that used to go along with it. It was that stuff that made the physical aspect of sex something special. I could get what I'm getting now just about anywhere and with just about anyone (but I wont). Know what I mean....?

Now, say that your wife feels you expressing love to her when you set on the couch and talk, go to a show together, just spending quality time with her. How long would she stay around if every day you started coming home and locking yourself in the basement (or garage, or bedroom, whatever) and working on whatever, eat dinner in silence, not answering any of her questions. watch TV in a seperate room, then go to bed without saying so much a one word to her for weeks, months, years on end? How long before she got tired of that and moved out (or moved you out)?

Ummm, I don't think she would be as patient and longsuffering as I have been. Believe me....I have thought about doing stuff like this just hoping that she would leave on her own. But this would not be right. If she were to leave me it would have to be completely "her" thing. Funny you should bring this up though....cuz sometimes I think that my wife is trying to get me to leave her. Or at least testing me to see if I would......dunno.

To many men, intimacy (i.e. sex) equals an expression of love AND acceptance. We don't deal well with being told that we are not loved and accepted by our spouse. It's likely that your wife, who has a different love language, just flat doesn't realize how important it is to you. Because it's not to her!

I hear you LJ. I think she sort of knows my need....and that she is falling short of meeting it. Yet she must not fully understand even though I have tried and tried to explain it to her. She says that she simply has no desire for sex and that she doesn't even desire to have a desire. Now, I'm tempted sometimes the see this as a red flag....but this is all she will say about it.

There are Hormone replacement Therapies available from her doctor that would help her situation.

Yes....and she's tried them all. Unfortunaltly she is one of those women who have adverse reactions to hormones. They literally make her ill.....and talk about a roller-coaster ride for yours truly :wink:. Besides, hormone replacement seemed to do nothing where her sex drive was concerned.

But the important thing is your wife needs to know how vitally important it is to you and your marriage. Again, I don't know all your situation, but, I know if my wife were to completely cut off all sex, (when she is physically capable of it) I would do whatever it took to make sure she understood the importance. My suggestion is to find what your wife's love language is and deprive her of it (for a short time) to show her what it's like. (Not in a mean or spiteful way) because it's obvious from your post that talking to her about it is not going to accomplish it.

Yes..LJ. I think you may be right here. Perhaps I'll give it a whirl at some point.

Hope I'm not way out of line here....but what can I say....I'm not a big fan of divorce either. :shrug: But withholding something as vital as sexual intimacy from a marriage ...just cuz ...is in my opinion a serious thing. I'm probably going to get blasted here, but here it goes....I think that what your wife is doing is akin to spousal abuse...at least as bad as verbal abuse...maybe not as bad physical abuse. (Let the condemnations begin :lol: )

:lol: No LJ.....not going to blast you here. In fact I appreciate your input more than you know. Like I said in another post, I usually keep this sort of thing to myself. But speaking about it does help a bit (who'd-a-thunk it?). I'm not one to burden anyone with my own hardships but like a good brother you have helped to carry this burden a little ways..... and so I thank God for you.

LJ

Peace in the Lord my friend.

[surmux]

wow look at the views verses the post

[hoobalkanoobal]

One of the interesting things, for me, is that in (what I think is) his main discussion of human sexuality and marriage in 1st Corinthians, Paul seems to admit that he "doesn't get it" or that his own views on the issue are not authoritative in the same way as his other views. He repeatedly says that this is what he thinks, but that it is not coming from God necessarily (i.e. 1 Corinthians 7:12). See also Matthew 19:10-12, wherein Jesus seems to take a "to each his own" approach to sexuality "some are eunuchs, some have sex, that's what marriage is for" - but do what you can to not have sex! It is clear that both of them share this last sentiment: sex is to be avoided.

This is, especially for Paul, a matter 1) of treating the body as a temple, and, I think especially 2) of not being attached to the things of this world, like a wife, or, I would add, your orgasms. When Jesus says give up your worldly possessions, I imagine he is including masturbation. Since most people don't read "give up your possessions" to mean actually have no possessions today, supposing instead that what is at issue is your relationship to the things you have, I argue we should include masturbation in this category of things. I think of an orgasm as something that people tend to make into a prized possession, because it is powerful, but so is television. For this reason, great care needs to be exercised with regard to these matters.

If masturbation is wrong, I don't think it is an issue of how it is done, or what is thought about during it, but about the essential dynamic of whether or not it's appropriate for a person to use one's body in order to give pleasure to oneself, so I disagree with the premise of the initial post that what is at stake is adultery. If it's wrong, it's about having possessions in this world, and it's about who your body belongs to (God), and therefore to what uses it can be put, and where your attention is supposed to be (on God).

I, for my part, do it. I'm not sure what to think about it except that I just don't feel guilty about it. This lack of guilt may be because I am a relatively new and, dare I say, weak Christian. I will say that when I first became a Christian, and I was really caught up in the Holy Spirit and feeling all kinds of wondrous feelings and stuff, my desire to masturbate greatly diminished in a way I hadn't thought possible, and, to some extent, it has stayed lower than it had previously been, which I take is a sign of some kind of inverse relationship. But even when I stopped doing it I was never led to feel that it is an abomination, which is not to say I won't come to think of it that way or that I ought to be doing it now. I have learned to anticipate growing increasingly interested in stopping because the men in the Christian communities I have belonged to have virtually universally claimed to struggle with it in a way that was apparently painful, and some had overcome it in a way they saw as deeply honoring to God. Even among these, for many, temptation replaced masturbation and they continued to be racked by guilt and struggle. Of course, ascetics believe that without such struggle, our ascetic sacrifices wouldn't glorify God. Christ said he came for mercy, not sacrifice.

[Sheepdog]

i can respond in depth, but lacking the time to, let me ask you if you own the computer you are posting from, or the internet connection.

what you are talking about, in context, was Jesus' prescription to the young rich man. it's not so much that possessions were inherently bad, but that Jesus new the rich man's possessions would be an encumberance to the man's faith.

[Zguy28]

What about a wife who maybe can't be sexually satisfied but by flying solo? Perhaps her husband is there but she just is not able to achieve via intercourse?

[draw2much]

Zguy28,
I'm trying to think of how to say this without getting too TMY? :lol: Somehow I doubt I can do it, but I'll try.

Not being able to orgasm through intercourse is no reason to go "solo" for a women. All her husband has to do is learn to work with his hands. It takes time and patience for both, and the husband learning what his wife likes but it can be done. And done well.

Now if she refuses to let him even try, I think there might be deeper problems there. Maybe she just doesn't want to wait for him to learn, or maybe she's afraid he'll become disinterested and annoyed trying to learn. It could also be a fear of something... perhaps she feels inadequate somehow? I dunno, lots of things spoil love making for women.. :-/

But like I said, masturbation doesn't HAVE to be something for the wife to do just because she can't orgasm during intercourse. If both parties enjoy her "solo" performance than more power to them... whatever floats their boats you know? But it doesn't have to be that way if they don't want it to be. :)

[Zguy28]

Zguy28,
I'm trying to think of how to say this without getting too TMY? :lol: Somehow I doubt I can do it, but I'll try.

Not being able to orgasm through intercourse is no reason to go "solo" for a women. All her husband has to do is learn to work with his hands. It takes time and patience for both, and the husband learning what his wife likes but it can be done. And done well.

Now if she refuses to let him even try, I think there might be deeper problems there. Maybe she just doesn't want to wait for him to learn, or maybe she's afraid he'll become disinterested and annoyed trying to learn. It could also be a fear of something... perhaps she feels inadequate somehow? I dunno, lots of things spoil love making for women.. :-/

But like I said, masturbation doesn't HAVE to be something for the wife to do just because she can't orgasm during intercourse. If both parties enjoy her "solo" performance than more power to them... whatever floats their boats you know? But it doesn't have to be that way if they don't want it to be. :)Well of course, that's what I was talking about. Even if the man "assists", its still masturbation though isn't it?

[Littlejoe9763]

Well of course, that's what I was talking about. Even if the man "assists", its still masturbation though isn't it?
No...I would think it would fall under Oral Sex in that case....or at least none intercourse sex. I think masturbation would be defined as SELF pleasure. Assistance, i.e. Husband assisting the wife, (or wife assisting Husband), moves it to an intimate level that would remove it from the realm of Masturbation.... IMHO.

LJ

[draw2much]

lol, oh...

You're the first person (Zguy28) I ever heard suggest masturbation could be non-self stimulating. I looked masturbation up in the dictionary to see if it could be taken that way and I guess it could... though it seems the primary meaning of the word involves self-stimulation.

*scratches head confused*

[Zguy28]

lol, oh...

You're the first person (Zguy28) I ever heard suggest masturbation could be non-self stimulating. I looked masturbation up in the dictionary to see if it could be taken that way and I guess it could... though it seems the primary meaning of the word involves self-stimulation.

*scratches head confused*Nevermind. I'm obviously not articulating well and to further illustrate my point would be inappropiate.

[Silver Hand]

I would just like to say that I'm currently a very content virgin, and that the Lord Jesus Christ is Master of my domain.

[one_lost_coin]

I understand that masterbation is wrong because of the lusting in the heart, and it is written, that "he who lusts after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart." But what if my wife isn't home and, well, I need to blow off some steam as it were. If I imagine my wife, how am I committing adultury in my heart? Is there another reason why it's wrong?

Masturbation is a result of the fall of man and not part of God's original intent. His first blessing upon man was saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.

We are called to the virtue of chastity inside and outside of marriage. Chastity is a virtue (like courage or honesty) that applies to a person’s sexuality. It means that you take all of your sexual desires and order them according to the demands of real love. For example, when you love a person, you make whatever sacrifice is best for them and you do whatever is necessary to keep from harming them. Chastity means that you take this definition of love and apply it to sex.
Some think that chastity simply means “no sex.” But that’s abstinence: focusing on what you can’t do and can’t have. Chastity is what you can do and can have, right now: a lifestyle that brings freedom, respect, peace, and even romance—without regret. Chastity frees a couple from the selfish attitude of using each other as objects, thus making them capable of true love.

Masturbation is a disordered passion that it never brings true freedom but always and only slavery anyone who struggles with it already knows this for themselves.

It does not serve the fruitful cooperation in the creation of life a purpose that the complimentarity of our human bodies being both male and female witness to as to its purpose.
Rather it contradicts the understanding of our bodies as a gift of our complete selves to the other.

Reflect on the great mystery St. Paul speaks of in Ephesians in the spousal analogy of Christ and His church, Jesus completely offers himself to his bride who completely recieves this complete self giving love and returns it back to her husband.

We are called to share in the Trinitarian life of a Free, Total, Faithful, Fruitful, gift of self to the other.

Masturbation denies this truth and it can be conquered. The truth that God calls us to can be realized, there is no room for compromise no matter how hard it may seem God is the God of the so called impossible. Jesus didn't come to give us excusses but life.

Use the spiritual weapons available and take up the fight God will give you the grace to live and grow into the fullness of His life.

[Zguy28]

I would just like to say that I'm currently a very content virgin, and that the Lord Jesus Christ is Master of my domain.Awesome.

This is great to hear. :smile:

[Night_Owl]

Wow, what a way to make a first post- on one of the most awkward subjects imaginable!

First let me just get out of the way that I am no expert on such matters, just a fellow person who likes to ponder the many mysteries of life. : -p However one area that I have been focusing on in college is psychology and sociology, in particular areas dealing with relationships (such as marriage, social psychology, and sexuality) . While I of course fully support the notion that the secular world doesn't necessarily coincide with spiritual and moral truths, I have run into the question of masturbation several times during my studies. I will try and not be too frank from this point on, but this is what I have found from the general scientific perspective:


A FINAL WARNING: This is a discussion on an issue that inherently brings in some PG-13 talk.

-Masturbation is extremely common, although males engage in it more often than females. Physical stimulation of the er, "nether regions" has been observed being engaged in even before birth in the womb.

-It is not just for lonely single men. An active sex life has no correlation to a decrease in masturbation.

-There are no medical side effects to masturbating (I have actually seen some studies claiming benefits). From the Victorian era up until the early 1900's claims of blindness, insanity, etc have been made, but these are as medically accurate as the one time bouts of 'female hysteria'.

Finally Masturbation can actually be very helpful for a HEALTHY sex life. Now this one is going to get some flack, and if need be I can start rummaging for citations, but hear me out. First a ground rule: I am referring to masturbation not related to porn or someone other than your spouse.

Sex therapy is a field unfortunately lacking many Christian practitioners from what I understand, but thankfully honesty about sex as opposed to either shunning or ignoring it has been a growing trend in christian communities, and many marriage counselors have been educated in these matters. MANY treatments for sexual disorders (especially premature ejaculation) require masturbation as part of the treatment. Why? To understand your body better and to know how it responds sexually. This allows you to control your body's reactions much better and overcome any issues you might have. However not just that, but getting to know your reactions to general stimuli is widely seen in the psychological community as a good way to stimulate yourself and then share what you learn from that with your spouse to better both of your experiences

I have also heard it recommended to masturbate while thinking about your spouse for when you are away, for instance if you are in the military. Many have said that it turns your spouse into a sex object, but needing sexual pleasure is important for the marriage as a whole. If you talk to them on the phone all the time, are you reducing them to just a friend? Sex is not the be all end all- but it is a foundation of a healthy marriage relationship. while the non psychical aspects can and most definitely should be addressed when apart (letters, phonecalls, etc), the integral physical part cannot. Thus masturbation can be essential for keeping intimacy alive. How? Classical conditioning.

Classical conditioning is one of the basic principles of psychology. Here is the Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning but in a nutshell it goes something like this: Let's say that every time a child is given a teddy bear, a loud noise is played that scares them. After this process happens many times, eventually just the sight of the teddy bear will scare them, even though there is no noise. This was famously demonstrated in Pavlov's dogs who drooled when they heard a bell, associating it with food. Likewise if you imagine you partner while experiencing sexual pleasure, the very idea and sight of your partner will bring good feeling by association and create a bond between you, even if they are not physically there.

Thus masturbating in the context of your spouse and understanding your own sexual response can be very helpful. Now there are plenty of cases of people just masturbating while their sex life is non existant, which is a sign that something is wrong. If masturbation has become an outlet for tension do to sexual issues in your marriage than you should probably think about counseling and constructive dialogue with your spouse.

Now I have been referring to masturbation in a certain context.am I saying that masturbation is alright in certain situations? Yes- just like ANY sexual activity. If you are thinking about other women and looking at pornography, Jesus was quite clear on the matters of lusting in your heart.

Which also leads to the non married individual. The no lusting thing covers porn and fantasizing about someone, so where does that leave masturbation? Well, I've heard opinions all over the board on that one- secular experts see it as normal, and those in the church have varying opinions. I look at it this way- it can easily become lust and your mind can wander onto impure things. Also, if it becomes an addiction it is obviously not healthy, as with anything. What if it is just exploring your body and removing tension? The bible is not definitive. This is where talking with god and having people who can hold you accountable come into play I think. Obviously it can lead to temptation, and Paul tells us to "flee" such situations. If it is with another person, about someone, or about something, then obviously it isn't good. Since that leaves only a few very limited "Grey" situations, it might be best to avoid it mostly if possible.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents. Thoughts?

[Zero Tolerance]

IN that case, masturbation is wrong because you have separated the sexual act from sole union with your wife. You're simply masturbating for selfish reasons, not as a union in procreative love with your wife.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Todd Hardy]

timspong (especially), SinikalSaint, spitndirt, and Xmansmommy, THANK YOU!!!

Seriously, I'm reading a lot of the replies and all I'm thinking is "does anyone realize that these kinds of responses are what turn people AWAY from Jesus?" There are plenty of people who stumble upon this website in a search for answers (that's how I found it) and when they read certain things like some of these [what I would consider] fundy answers, it can send them running the other way; FAST! You've all made mentions of how many views it's gotten... How many you figure are from visitors searching something on Google?

Sheepdog - I think I can include you in the above kudos but I wasn't able to get through your entire post. I've been reading this forum for days now; my eyes hurt! Please accept my apologies.

And, Night Owl - My $0.02 (since you asked); excellent, on point info. Thank you. You made mention of many things that most average folks don't know. If you would have left out the words "it might be best to avoid it mostly if possible," you'd have hit the nail on the head. Want change? :tongue:

I know not all will agree but it's the people who read this and don't post replies that I'm truly concerned about. Thanks for listening.

-Todd

[Alexander's Mom]

Um, from a medical POV;
The activity in question, for women, improves the Kegel muscles, preventing incontinence and increasing sexual satisfaction during actual intercourse.
Most women, I think, are kind of disinclined. Kind of only ever think to when the sexual performance benefits are remembered.

I'm not offended by the idea of my husband masturbating while thinking of me or thinking of no one. This is very shaky, and I'm knee-jerking away from the idea; but, let me posit somethin' ethically challenging to chew on....

What if we had just been in a fight and he didn't want to think of me, but needed a sexual release? He is not desirous of the young actress he's picturing. If she were to proposition him, he would refuse with disgust. He's just using a sexy image as a catalyst.
He doesn't desire her because he doesn't know her, and he requires that for full-fledged desire.
What about this scenario?

It's so much easier being female... I pity your many weaknesses.