Psychoheresy

[Mose]

Psychology is evil because it doesn't acknowledge that humans have a soul and the possibility that process of thought are entwined with spiritual intervention. Psychiatry is a theory, Mental Illness and Demonic Possession have the same credibility as far as physical evidence is concernced. If you are skeptical of physical and mental health being influenced by spiritual well-being, then you should also be skeptical of the existence of biological brain diseases because there is no proof, the explanations for both is just theory. The Religious, spiritual and non-materialist should be concerned about psychotherapy and analysis because it's highly atheistic and materialistic. It's not exact and is seperated into denominations like Religion. Christians who acknowledge the atheistic practice and diagnoses of psychology/psychiatry are committing heresy.

[Gideon Brown]

Christians who acknowledge the atheistic practice and diagnoses of psychology/psychiatry are committing heresy.

How?

[Lili]

Psychology is evil..Are you trying to outdo Tom Cruise? :brood:

[SpinyNorman]

Are you trying to outdo Tom Cruise? :brood:

DANG!!!!!!!!!!! I was going to ask the same thing!!!

[Pilgrim]

Psychology is evil because it doesn't acknowledge that humans have a soul and the possibility that process of thought are entwined with spiritual intervention. Psychiatry is a theory, Mental Illness and Demonic Possession have the same credibility as far as physical evidence is concernced. If you are skeptical of physical and mental health being influenced by spiritual well-being, then you should also be skeptical of the existence of biological brain diseases because there is no proof, the explanations for both is just theory. The Religious, spiritual and non-materialist should be concerned about psychotherapy and analysis because it's highly atheistic and materialistic. It's not exact and is seperated into denominations like Religion. Christians who acknowledge the atheistic practice and diagnoses of psychology/psychiatry are committing heresy.
There are just so many wrong assumptions in this post I don't know where to start. There also seems to be fundamental misunderstanding of what "theory" and "fact" are and a general ignorance of the actual quantifiable evidence surrounding the physiological nature of mental illness.

The tone seems to be of that peculiar arrogance of the generally ignorant.

[Dee Dee Warren]

What?

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[Conductor42]

I suppose mentioning that I like most of Thomas Szasz's works will get me lynched in this thread.

[Minnesota]

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[Rahab]

Psychology is evil because it doesn't acknowledge that humans have a soul and the possibility that process of thought are entwined with spiritual intervention.

Bonjour Mose,

Hopefuly you wil not be discouraged by the current consensus in this thread that you are in error. I hope you will be willing to consider why you are mistaken in your statements.

Psychology does not claim to resolve spiritual debates or establish spiritual truths. It is purely a science which explores means to restore behavioral functionment.It dwells more on counseling and behavior modification methods than it claims to exploit whichever abstract concepts such as "souls".

FYI, there are christian psychologists who do acknowlege the power of faith in their counselees as a tool to help them overcome their emotional overload or behavioral issues.






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Psychiatry is a theory, Mental Illness and Demonic Possession have the same credibility as far as physical evidence is concernced. Absolutly not. Psychiatry, thanks to modern medical technology, such as Cat Scans and MIRs has been able to present visual evidence of which bio chemical dysfunctionments of the brain and their level of activities cause some mental illnesses. To my knowlege, claims of demonic posession remain void of even demonstrating the existence of such entities as demons.

The current research on schizophrenia for example also explores the possibility of a biological componant in utero affecting the normal neuronic development.(possibly viral). There is ample physical evidence in neuro psychiatry as to which pathological factors cause sensorial hallucinations and delusional thought processes.A simple neuron defficiency can totaly unbalance the bio chemical profile of the human brain.





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If you are skeptical of physical and mental health being influenced by spiritual well-being, then you should also be skeptical of the existence of biological brain diseases because there is no proof, the explanations for both is just theory. Spiritual faith can affect our overall behavior and emotional and mental states. However, it has more to do with our endocrinal response to such stimulus than anything else. No differently than an adrenaline output in response to a fear "factor" which results in an increase in physical strength.

Biological brain diseases: IMO, you need to do a search on Jakob Kreuzer disease (more commonly known as the human form of "mad cow") to view the material evidence of the presence of a prone which literaly "eats up" the brain.

Mental disorders : again, ample evidence can be presented as to the presence of dysfunctional biochemical exchanges causing various disorders. Conditions which can be improved by the use of chemical drugs either suppressing or augmenting those exchanges.

Neurological disorders : The research on Parkinson's can present ample evidence of a dopotamine production defficiency in the brain.

I am giving you only few examples to facilitate your search and opportunity to educate yourself.





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The Religious, spiritual and non-materialist should be concerned about psychotherapy and analysis because it's highly atheistic and materialistic. It's not exact and is seperated into denominations like Religion. Christians who acknowledge the atheistic practice and diagnoses of psychology/psychiatry are committing heresy. Christians who rely on neuro psychiatry to provide care for their loved ones affected by mental disorders are in fact looking out for their loved ones' best interest. I am quite concerned for folks who are in the same state of denial as the one you have exhibited here.

I will even venture to state that it is criminal to deter christians from seeking professional mental health care. Andrea Yates remains an example of the consequences of denying someone's need for professional mental health care. Thus also denying their potential for harming others or oneself. Her religious husband dismissed her symptoms and pursued to follow the alleged exhortations of their pastor, leaving his wife without medical supervision, when she had been previously diagnosed with a psychosis. Expecting her to function normaly and safely while caring for 5 children. We were all shocked by the tragedy which concluded the story of a woman whose mental health was dismissed by religious overzealous relatives.

[Adam]

I suppose mentioning that I like most of Thomas Szasz's works will get me lynched in this thread.
Mental illness no more exists than do any books by Thomas Szasz.
Adam
(For those who don't understand my irony, I'm answering "Yes!")

[Conductor42]

I don't entirely disregard mental illness, but it is entirely over-exaggerated and mostly balogna

Take, for example, the current trend of parents - instead of parenting, they simply claim "A.D.D.!", and drug their kids.

[Pilgrim]

ADD is one of the most over diagnosed disorders of all time. And I say this as one of the first people to be diagnosed with it. I've been on and off of meds for ADD since 1989. It blows my mind away how easy it is for a child to get a diagnosis of ADD these days. I had to spend several days at Children's hospital going through test after test. Now a days your regular doctor gives you a 7 question interview and starts your drugs. It's disturbing how quickly people get frustrated with parenting and want to resort to the drugs.

[Dee Dee Warren]

I think we have been also temper our words in that respect Pilgrim. I agree it is wayyyyy over-diagnosed. But when we just say that, we have to remember that in some cases it is spot on and not condemn those who ultilize that method because it is needed.

For a fact my nephew has that disorder. My sister works part-time from home and is one of the most devoted parents I know. They turned their house upside trying to solve the issues in other ways - i.e. was their enviromental irritatants, was it diet? etc. She constantly got judged by others who did not know the situation that she was just a bad parent. My nephew had problems from the moment he was born. I am personally convinced he has asperberger's, but that has not been corroborated. My sister has spoken with him (my nephew) very frankly about the issues as he has gotten older, and he understand his problems, and now, in high school, he has learned through her coaching and working with him to control a lot of the urges and problems that are so difficult when one is an immature child, and he is on no medications, but he works and works at it. My nephew is one of the coolest kids I know.

[Dee Dee Warren]

I don't entirely disregard mental illness, but it is entirely over-exaggerated and mostly balogna

Care for examples? And how is this possibly helpful to those who are legitimate in a thread that is telling them that are lying or self-deceived?

I really don't see much difference to these kinds of things than when you get some Christian Scientist or faith healer saying that nearly all diseases are due to lack of faith. There is enough truth in that (i.e. some diseases likely do have a spiritual cause in some people) to make it dangerous because the majority of diseases do not.

As a person who stuggles mightily with emotinal/mental disorders, I am somewhat indignant at your first statement, mostly because I get that kind crapola frequently.




Take, for example, the current trend of parents - instead of parenting, they simply claim "A.D.D.!", and drug their kids.

In my limited experience, this is a pretty unfair blanket statement.

[Rahab]

I don't entirely disregard mental illness, but it is entirely over-exaggerated and mostly balogna. I really disagree that it is "mostly balogna". That circumstancial depression instead of clinical depression for example is at times overly treated, may happen. But when it comes to the physical evidence of various bio chemical unbalances causing some mental disorders, there is no possible denial that those necessitate long term treatments.

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Take, for example, the current trend of parents - instead of parenting, they simply claim "A.D.D.!", and drug their kids. I agree with Dee Dee that you are making a blanket statement. The problem with ADD and HD is that it is only thru observation of the behavior that a diagnostic is made. At times, not taking in account various circumstances in the life of the child which may cause loss of concentration and hyper activity. Usualy, it is at school age that such issues are observed by the teachers.Who then recommend an evaluation for ADD or HD.(especialy attention deficit). More and more parents are being reluctant to use drugs as it is in the last ten years that the long term negative side effects of Retylin have been confirmed.

[Hail Mary]

. Absolutly not. Psychiatry, thanks to modern medical technology, such as Cat Scans and MIRs has been able to present visual evidence of which bio chemical dysfunctionments of the brain and their level of activities cause some mental illnesses. To my knowlege, claims of demonic posession remain void of even demonstrating the existence of such entities as demons.

I think Mose may have engaged in a drive-by posting, and I'll be happy if he/she comes back to defend their post, but until they do perhaps I could defend some of their points. (Not all because I think they've gone a little overboard)

I've often wondered if "Christian Living" has ever been scientifically evaluated as a modern psychiatric drug. What would be more effective for someone lightly depressed, a dose of Zoloft every day, or attending mass/church weekly with daily readings from scripture? I've never heard of a psychiatrist prescribing a lifestyle in accordance with the teachings of the Bible or a church, yet it has helped countless generations of people. Perhaps guilt is causing their depression, Christ offers forgiveness of sins and the church will "prescribe" a penance for these sins, psychiatry hands us a prescription for our guilt. In this sense, I think modern psychiatry and psychology tend to overstep it's bounds. They have become the new priesthood, of sorts, using the tools of science but often discarding the wisdom of God. They are the ultimate arbiters of our mental health and there is no court of appeal.

I know that that some disorders, such as schizophrenia, can be helped by modern psychiatry, so I don't want to agree completely with Mose. Yet psychiatrists of just a few years ago were locking people up in sanitariums in dreadful conditions, perhaps they still are. In another hundred years we'll probably look back on today's psychiatrists just as barbarically as we look upon those of the 19th century.

[Rahab]

I think Mose may have engaged in a drive-by posting, and I'll be happy if he/she comes back to defend their post, but until they do perhaps I could defend some of their points. (Not all because I think they've gone a little overboard). Yes, it certainly would be helpful if Mose were to participate further in a thread he/she started.

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I've often wondered if "Christian Living" has ever been scientifically evaluated as a modern psychiatric drug. What would be more effective for someone lightly depressed, a dose of Zoloft every day, or attending mass/church weekly with daily readings from scripture?. IMO professional counselors do take in account which daily practices may be helpful to their counselee's emotional and psychological welfare. Granted such person has not been diagnosed with a CLINICAL condition which then requires chemical drugs. As an aside, neuro psychiatrists treat CLINICAL conditions not circumstancial depression induced by overwhelming events such as death of a loved one, divorce, loss of employment, facing a catastrophic illness etc...

I do not think that there is any state of denial from professional mental health care providers that spirituality can contribute to the betterment of people suffering of circumstancial depression.



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I've never heard of a psychiatrist prescribing a lifestyle in accordance with the teachings of the Bible or a church, yet it has helped countless generations of people. As an example bi polarism necessitates the help of chemical drugs and a modification of lifestyle alone will not provide a functional bio chemical balance. That it may be recommended as a support added to medical treatment is undoubtly valid. Certainly not as the only remedy.



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Perhaps guilt is causing their depression, Christ offers forgiveness of sins and the church will "prescribe" a penance for these sins, psychiatry hands us a prescription for our guilt. Psychiatry "hands out" a prescription to either increase or decrease whichever bio chemical activity of the brain is causing a dysfunctionment. Again, it addresses CLINICAL conditions. Self induced guilt may be one symptom of such clinical condition.Thus diagnosing the cause of any of the symptoms and treating it.

As you refer to "guilt causing depression", keep in mind that you are addressing again circumstancial depression. Moreso, what we refer to as self condemnation. Which a christian psychologist or christian professional counselor would undoubtly deal with from the angle of christian faith.(however, the idea of "penance" can easily be recieved by the counselee as the necessity to exercise self punishment, a dangerous area to tread in when it comes to "cutters" who engage in self mutilation often as the result of having been the victims of sexual abuse as children).


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In this sense, I think modern psychiatry and psychology tend to overstep it's bounds. They have become the new priesthood, of sorts, using the tools of science but often discarding the wisdom of God. What tells you that God did not give them the knowlege to deal with mental health issues? As we compare the current medical scientific knowlege and the absence of any demonstrated by how folks who suffered of various mental and genetic disorders were ostrecized, abused or neglicted in OT and NT times? Do you think that it was in God's Will that such folks be treated in such ways, ways resulting from ignorance and prejudice?




.
They are the ultimate arbiters of our mental health and there is no court of appeal. Professional mental health care providers will both attempt to provide a diagnostic based on material evidence(as I demonstrated in my first reply to Mose) and prescribe a treatment (to include at times counseling). I am not sure why other individuals or groups of individuals who do not have the credentials and knowlege to treat such conditions ought to be involved in that process. We are talking of health issues (mental) which IMO need to be addressed by professionals.No differently than an abnormal cardiac rythm needs to be addressed and treated by a cardiologist not by a clergy member.

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I know that that some disorders, such as schizophrenia, can be helped by modern psychiatry, so I don't want to agree completely with Mose.. Most clinical conditions caused by a pathological factor are treatable by modern psychiatry.(to include neuro psychiatry).


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Yet psychiatrists of just a few years ago were locking people up in sanitariums in dreadful conditions, perhaps they still are. Certainly not in the US. Only the criminaly insane are institutionalized permanantly.Nor in my country of origine, France, where to be able to institutionalize anyone in any mental health care establishment, there must be an authorization from the next of kin or legal custodian. A psychiatrist cannot just order an internment even temporary. I am not sure where you get the perception of "just a few years ago".

You may be aware that in California, in the late 60's, Reagan ordered the release of mentaly ill patients from various health care institutions. As a result, the homeless population increased considerably. In fact, you do not see mental health care professionals wandering about homeless shelters and "tent cities" institutionalizing the high numbers of homeless folks who suffer of various mental illnesses. We went from one extreme of arbitrary institutionalization to the extreme of abandonning the mentaly ill to conditions(homelessness) which remove them from medical supervision and help.



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In another hundred years we'll probably look back on today's psychiatrists just as barbarically as we look upon those of the 19th century. Do you look back on Biblical accounts of mental and genetic conditions percieved as demonic posession, curses, impurity etc "just as barbarically"?

[Dee Dee Warren]

What would be more effective for someone lightly depressed, a dose of Zoloft every day, or attending mass/church weekly with daily readings from scripture?

Interesting. Would you say the same for someone with a mild case of cancer?


I've never heard of a psychiatrist prescribing a lifestyle in accordance with the teachings of the Bible or a church, yet it has helped countless generations of people.

Because psychiatrist are medical doctors provide presciptions, yet my doctor is a Christian and does engage in those conversations. Now a psychologist is the one to do such things, and actually the psychologist I saw after my first major clinical depression was Eastern Orthodox and proscribed Christian meditations to help harness negative thoughts and thought patterns and we spoke at length at the spiritual comfort and health through participation in Communion.


Perhaps guilt is causing their depression, Christ offers forgiveness of sins and the church will "prescribe" a penance for these sins, psychiatry hands us a prescription for our guilt.

Nonsense. You can keep your trying to lay on another unnecessary burden upon those afflicted. It is in fact attitudes such as the OP that lay guilt burdens upon people.

[Hail Mary]

. IMO professional counselors do take in account which daily practices may be helpful to their counselee's emotional and psychological welfare. Granted such person has not been diagnosed with a CLINICAL condition which then requires chemical drugs. As an aside, neuro psychiatrists treat CLINICAL conditions not circumstancial depression induced by overwhelming events such as death of a loved one, divorce, loss of employment, facing a catastrophic illness etc...

Wouldn't you agree that diagnosis of a CLINICAL condition is highly subjective. One psychiatrist may diagnose a clinical case of depression while another does not, there is really no objective way to measure many clinical conditions. A person may be pushed into a clinical condition by death of a loved one, divorce, etc... or a person may be circumstantially depressed by the same incident... There's really no objective way to distinguish between the two.

There was a pretty good article recently in the New York Times, which I can't seem to find now, but it was something like "I'm okay, you're 301.12" and lamented the fact that almost anyone can be diagnosed with any number of clinical conditions.


. As an example bi polarism necessitates the help of chemical drugs and a modification of lifestyle alone will not provide a functional bio chemical balance. That it may be recommended as a support added to medical treatment is undoubtly valid. Certainly not as the only remedy.

No, bi-polarism doesn't necessitate the help of chemical drugs. Prescription drugs may help in some cases, but sometimes the drugs don't help at all (something like 40% of the time), and in light cases it may be better to avoid drugs altogether. If someone is severely bi-polar, then drugs will probably help, but there is a huge gray area between someone not bi-polar at all and someone severely bi-polar. There is no objective measure of bi-polarism in the gray area.



. What tells you that God did not give them the knowlege to deal with mental health issues? As we compare the current medical scientific knowlege and the absence of any demonstrated by how folks who suffered of various mental and genetic disorders were ostrecized, abused or neglicted in OT and NT times? Do you think that it was in God's Will that such folks be treated in such ways, ways resulting from ignorance and prejudice?

God didn't tell me anything, one way or the other. I only stated that psychiatry (as a science) often discards the wisdom the God. To prove me wrong, then please give me an example of a psychiatrist that has told their patient that they need to attend mass every week, or read scriptures daily. I don't see any ignorance or prejudice in this at all, it is timeless wisdom.


I am not sure why other individuals or groups of individuals who do not have the credentials and knowlege to treat such conditions ought to be involved in that process. We are talking of health issues (mental) which IMO need to be addressed by professionals.No differently than an abnormal cardiac rythm needs to be addressed and treated by a cardiologist not by a clergy member.

In other words, the patient has no say in the matter and should accept the proclamations of the 'professionals' as dogma.


. Do you look back on Biblical accounts of mental and genetic conditions percieved as demonic posession, curses, impurity etc "just as barbarically"?

Yes, I think its true that many have been treated barbarically in the name of God, there's no doubt about that. But you don't see many people locked in straight jackets by the church anymore, whereas there are any number of thousands of people similarly restrained by mental health professionals. Don't you think we will view many of the current practices by mental health professionals as barbaric in another 20 years, 50 years, or perhaps 100 years? Can you say the same for the current practices of the church?

[Hail Mary]

Interesting. Would you say the same for someone with a mild case of cancer?

No, but that is the point isn't it?


Because psychiatrist are medical doctors provide presciptions, yet my doctor is a Christian and does engage in those conversations. Now a psychologist is the one to do such things, and actually the psychologist I saw after my first major clinical depression was Eastern Orthodox and proscribed Christian meditations to help harness negative thoughts and thought patterns and we spoke at length at the spiritual comfort and health through participation in Communion.

Nonsense. You can keep your trying to lay on another unnecessary burden upon those afflicted. It is in fact attitudes such as the OP that lay guilt burdens upon people.

Sigh.. I'm not laying anything on anyone. I'm saying that psychiatry often discards the wisdom of God and many times appoints itself as the new priesthood. I'm happy to read about your EO doctor, but I would guess this would be more of an exceptional doctor rather than the norm. I could be wrong, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Christians have the option of seeing a Christian psychologist. When I called my insurance company to get the referral they asked me if I was a particular faith and wished to have faith-based counseling, and I said yes, I would only see a Christian psychologist. Your last post once again confused the jobs of psychiatrist and psychologist. The psychiatrist is simply looking at medical intervention for the most part. What you mentioned is the role of the psychologist, and in my experience, and in my Christian circles, what happened with me is not rare. As I said I didn't even bring the issue up first to my health insurance company - they asked me.

You may not realize that you are indeed laying something on people. As somene who has been there and heard all of this before, I respectfully submit that I might be in a better position to know what effect your words may have. Things such as the OP put people in needless shame and bondage. I have been there and done that. And words such as the OP (and the attitude behind it) can drive people into such a tailspin by not feeling okay to seek help that suicide results. In my first clinical depression, I got a really good taste and understanding as to why some people are driven to suicide. It was living hell - you would do anything to make it stop. And if a person is told that what they are experiencing is their fault, it isn't real, psychiatrists and medicine are complete bunk, it can leave them in utter black despair with no way out.

It is irresponsible and horribly destructive.

[Mose]

Christians have the option of seeing a Christian psychologist. When I called my insurance company to get the referral they asked me if I was a particular faith and wished to have faith-based counseling, and I said yes, I would only see a Christian psychologist. Your last post once again confused the jobs of psychiatrist and psychologist. The psychiatrist is simply looking at medical intervention for the most part. What you mentioned is the role of the psychologist, and in my experience, and in my Christian circles, what happened with me is not rare. As I said I didn't even bring the issue up first to my health insurance company - they asked me.

You may not realize that you are indeed laying something on people. As somene who has been there and heard all of this before, I respectfully submit that I might be in a better position to know what effect your words may have. Things such as the OP put people in needless shame and bondage. I have been there and done that. And words such as the OP (and the attitude behind it) can drive people into such a tailspin by not feeling okay to seek help that suicide results. In my first clinical depression, I got a really good taste and understanding as to why some people are driven to suicide. It was living hell - you would do anything to make it stop. And if a person is told that what they are experiencing is their fault, it isn't real, psychiatrists and medicine are complete bunk, it can leave them in utter black despair with no way out.

It is irresponsible and horribly destructive.
I replied and it was lost, I will come back later with the reason for my claim or OP. The topic is highly controversial and I don't mean to offend.

[Rahab]

Wouldn't you agree that diagnosis of a CLINICAL condition is highly subjective. One psychiatrist may diagnose a clinical case of depression while another does not, there is really no objective way to measure many clinical conditions. A person may be pushed into a clinical condition by death of a loved one, divorce, etc... or a person may be circumstantially depressed by the same incident... There's really no objective way to distinguish between the two. Clinical depression manifests itself as a series of symptoms which will not be dependent on circumstances but on a pathological cause. Here is the criteria used by the American Psychiatric Association to categorize various mental disorders to include unipolar depression:

http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/dsm_iv_index.htm

The DSM IV is far more explicit (as you can see if you take the time to study my link) than you may realize. Differenciations and nuances are pointed for each category. Such as differences between Major Depression Disorder and Depression. Differences between bipolar I and II. Symptoms and timeline of various episodes between hypomanic and depressive are quite specific for both types of bipolarism.


There was a pretty good article recently in the New York Times, which I can't seem to find now, but it was something like "I'm okay, you're 301.12" and lamented the fact that almost anyone can be diagnosed with any number of clinical conditions. The same way anyone can be diagnosed with any number of clinical conditions related to physiological causes. Mental illnesses are defined as illnesses no differently than purely physical illnesses. In fact, bipolar sufferers may go thru periods of remission and relapse just like cancer survivors.




No, bi-polarism doesn't necessitate the help of chemical drugs. Prescription drugs may help in some cases, but sometimes the drugs don't help at all (something like 40% of the time), and in light cases it may be better to avoid drugs altogether. If someone is severely bi-polar, then drugs will probably help, but there is a huge gray area between someone not bi-polar at all and someone severely bi-polar. There is no objective measure of bi-polarism in the gray area.

I have found for you an informative and simple site dedicated to bipolarism.
http://bipolar.about.com/cs/bpbasics/a/what_causes_bp.htm

The page I chose to link you to is "what causes bipolarism". The general consensus is a problem with neurotransmittors. Which obviously indicates an issue related to psychopathology. NONE of the medical data I have consulted at the time my mother was being evaluated potentialy for bipolarism DENIES the necessity of pharmacology to remedy to the moods instability and less common psychotic symptoms. In fact, all the data I had to digest strongly recommended that pharmacology be used to prevent an increase of the depressive episodes leading to suicidal tendencies.

From the link I gave you, you may "travel" thru all the items of the site to include alternative treatments to pharmacology when and if such treatment does not control the symptoms.





God didn't tell me anything, one way or the other. I asked you "what tells you" not if God told you anything.





I only stated that psychiatry (as a science) often discards the wisdom the God. My initial question remains but I will ask it differently as it seems you misread it the first time around : what leads you to believe that medical science is not the product of God's Wisdom? Any limitations you set as to God equipping us, humans, with the capacity to research, explore, discover means to remedy to our vulnerability whether it be physical or mental?

As an aside, I do not consider the Bible to be a manual of medicine. Nor do most christians who will consult an oncologist and seek treatment from an oncologist once diagnosed with cancer. That they rely on their faith to strengthen themselves spiritualy to overcome such ordeal is undoubtly vital but they certainly do not rely on a clergy member to treat their illness.





To prove me wrong, then please give me an example of a psychiatrist that has told their patient that they need to attend mass every week, or read scriptures daily. I thought I had already explained to you in my previous post that in counseling methods which may accompany other treatments, a counselor will take in account which factors in the daily activities of their counselees will contribute to improving their welfare.As far as prescribing "masses" and "daily scripture reading" to treat bipolarism or MDD or Aspergen or Tourette's or autism or the very long list of mental disorders/illnesses, such prescription will not be ordered to TREAT the symptoms. Again and again, as a support to medical treatment.

By the way, I am not concerned about "being right" or "proving you wrong" but to make sure that you are exposed to enough data and information to realize that mental illnesses/disorders are not to be dismissed and confused for some type of fiction. It is distressing and irritating for people who suffer of any mental disorder/illness to see their conditions demeaned by folks who often do not know what they are talking about.

Though I do not suffer of any, my mother completed suicide three years ago as the result of interrupting her treatment. After some 50 years of battling a psychosis.





I don't see any ignorance or prejudice in this at all, it is timeless wisdom. Who said that it was ignorance and prejudice to use personal faith as a mean to provide strength and comfort? It would definitly be pure ignorance and a dangerous one I will add to consider that a clergy member is going to treat cancer or bipolarism.




In other words, the patient has no say in the matter and should accept the proclamations of the 'professionals' as dogma. The patient can and has the ability to educate himself/herself on his/her diagnosis and research which treatments are available.I think that Darth Xena has proven so. By the way, what is your personal experience with any mental disorder/illness?




Yes, I think its true that many have been treated barbarically in the name of God, there's no doubt about that. But you don't see many people locked in straight jackets by the church anymore, whereas there are any number of thousands of people similarly restrained by mental health professionals. What do you mean by "similarly restrained by mental health professionals"? Where did I mention the church as "locking "people in "straight jackets"? I was moreso refering in my comments to ignorance and the lack of medical knowlege causing people to respond prejudicialy towards individuals affected with mental, neurological, genetic disorders as well as those affected by biological factors such as leprosy victims.




Don't you think we will view many of the current practices by mental health professionals as barbaric in another 20 years, 50 years, or perhaps 100 years? Can you say the same for the current practices of the church? Which practices of mental health care professionals are you refering to? Which current practices of the church are you assuming I would see as "barbaric"?

[Rahab]

No, but that is the point isn't it?



Sigh.. I'm not laying anything on anyone. I'm saying that psychiatry often discards the wisdom of God and many times appoints itself as the new priesthood. I'm happy to read about your EO doctor, but I would guess this would be more of an exceptional doctor rather than the norm. I could be wrong, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so. I used to attend an evangelical church whose elders were ALL professional christians counselors with doctorates in psychology. Their ministries focused on providing christian centered counseling for people suffering of various difficult CIRCUMSTANCES, as well as providing alcohol and drug rehabilitation support. However, if they detected a possible CLINICAL condition, they would refer such person to a psychiatrist for evaluation. At no time ,would those christian psychologists engaged in pretty intense counseling confuse their role with the profession of psychiatry or neuro psychiatry.

[Hail Mary]

And if a person is told that what they are experiencing is their fault, it isn't real, psychiatrists and medicine are complete bunk, it can leave them in utter black despair with no way out.

It is irresponsible and horribly destructive.

Hmmm, I didn't say psychiatrists and medicine are complete bunk. Sometimes (perhaps the vast majority of times) its not complete bunk and is extremely helpful. But will you agree that sometimes it IS complete bunk?

[Pilgrim]

I will admit that it is as capable of being off target as any field of medicine can be in any given situation. But the brain is an organ like any other and this means that it has a definable physiology and that it can and should be treated like any other organ when it is not functioning properly.

[Hail Mary]

Clinical depression manifests itself as a series of symptoms which will not be dependent on circumstances but on a pathological cause. ......

You didn't answer my question. Wouldn't you agree that diagnosis of a clinical condition is highly subjective?


The same way anyone can be diagnosed with any number of clinical conditions related to physiological causes. Mental illnesses are defined as illnesses no differently than purely physical illnesses. In fact, bipolar sufferers may go thru periods of remission and relapse just like cancer survivors.

There is a huge big difference in diagnosing problems with, say, knee injuries and mental illnesses. Scientific knowledge of the workings of the knee is pretty good. Scientific knowledge of the workings of the brain is relatively primitive.


My initial question remains but I will ask it differently as it seems you misread it the first time around : what leads you to believe that medical science is not the product of God's Wisdom? Any limitations you set as to God equipping us, humans, with the capacity to research, explore, discover means to remedy to our vulnerability whether it be physical or mental?

I don't see how you arrive at this question either. Nothing I've said can be construed as implying that medical science is not the product of God's wisdom.


As an aside, I do not consider the Bible to be a manual of medicine. Nor do most christians who will consult an oncologist and seek treatment from an oncologist once diagnosed with cancer. That they rely on their faith to strengthen themselves spiritualy to overcome such ordeal is undoubtly vital but they certainly do not rely on a clergy member to treat their illness.

I agree with this, but please answer this question. What would modern psychiatry say about St Paul's experience on the road to Damascus? He heard voices and had hallucinations. Is there any doubt whatsoever that he would have been diagnosed as a schizophrenic and put on some heavy doses of haldol or whatever.



By the way, I am not concerned about "being right" or "proving you wrong" but to make sure that you are exposed to enough data and information to realize that mental illnesses/disorders are not to be dismissed and confused for some type of fiction. It is distressing and irritating for people who suffer of any mental disorder/illness to see their conditions demeaned by folks who often do not know what they are talking about.

I agree that is distressing and irritating, but hopefully you can see that I'm not doing it.


Though I do not suffer of any, my mother completed suicide three years ago as the result of interrupting her treatment. After some 50 years of battling a psychosis.

I'm really sorry about that, it is so sad and I pray that God understands the conditions that lead to this and granted her mercy. Also, this is something I feel really uncomfortable talking about, but I'm bi-polar and I've also had first-hand experiences with delusional thinking that resulted in my own suicide attempt. I don't know the circumstances around your mother's death, but what happened to me was that suicide somehow seemed like a rational solution at a time when I had become delusional during withdrawals from drug addiction. At any other time, suicide would never be anything I would have ever considered, but in a delusional state somehow suicide seemed like a legitimate alternative. This is really hard to explain, but when you're having delusions, it can be extremely painful because you've lost control of your mind and don't know if you will ever regain control of it, it is both painful and extremely frightening, and perhaps the only visible solution to the problem is suicide. I don't know if this was the case with your mother, or not, but sometimes I just want to reassure people that their lost loved ones probably loved them very much and, at the time of their suicide, couldn't comprehend that 'suicide' was permanent and would cause grief to their loved ones. They just wanted the pain to stop, and in their delusional state could only think of one solution without necessarily understanding the consequences of their actions.

Obviously the biggest thing I needed to do was stop taking drugs, they're just that much worse for someone who is bipolar. What saved me was a belief in Christ and living according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. As for dealing with bipolar, living according to the teachings of the church is also a huge help for me dealing with this condition. But nobody, and I mean nobody, in the mental health profession told me these things. I'm glad to hear that this advice is offered, on occasion, but for the most part the timeless wisdom of Christian living has ceased to be something seen as beneficial by mental health professionals. Christ can help, he really can. Is that all that is necessary, in many instances it is not, but in some instances, like mine, it is.


Who said that it was ignorance and prejudice to use personal faith as a mean to provide strength and comfort? It would definitly be pure ignorance and a dangerous one I will add to consider that a clergy member is going to treat cancer or bipolarism.

Well, again, I never said that a clergy member should treat cancer or someone bipolar. I've only said that modern psychiatrists often discards the wisdom of God. I think it would be ignorant if a clergyman discarded medical wisdom, why isn't it just as ignorant for a mental health professional to discard the wisdom of God?


The patient can and has the ability to educate himself/herself on his/her diagnosis and research which treatments are available.I think that Darth Xena has proven so. By the way, what is your personal experience with any mental disorder/illness?

Well, like I mentioned, I'm bipolar, so I've had quite a lot of personal experience with this and know first-hand that it does NOT necessitate drug therapy. There is a spectrum of severity to the condition, from light, to severe, and there are some psychiatrists that will let people with light conditions avoid taking prescription drugs. Thankfully my case is light, and the way it was determined to be light was that I don't have hallucinations during peaks of mania, or valleys of depression. My only experience with delusional thinking was during withdrawals from drug addiction, so I do know some of the horrors that people can experience with severe mental conditions.

With a bipolar condition, and a lot of mental illnesses, you have to consider that psychiatric treatment is fairly new in the whole scheme of things and, in many respects, they don't really know what their doing yet. Only 10 years ago I was diagnosed as clinically depressed and prescribed lots of drugs for depression. Just in the past few years has there been evidence that treatment for depression can lead to rapid cycling for people suffering from a bipolar condition. They really don't understand the long term effects of many of the drugs they are currently prescribing.

Another thing to consider is that a clinically depressed person 10 years ago, can be clinical bipolar today, and who knows what we'll be in another 10 years even though our condition really hasn't changed, its psychiatry that has changed. I'm fairly certain that we'll look back on the psychiatric drugs a lot of people are ingesting today with horror. We're really a bunch of guinea pigs to modern psychiatry, sometimes they help, sometimes they can't do anything, and sometimes they can cause a lot of damage.

Please don't misunderstand me to be condemning all of psychiatry. Obviously they help a lot of people, but you'll also have to admit that sometimes that can't help, and sometimes they cause harm. It is just as important for us to recognize their limitations as it is to accept their diagnosis. I hope this is a realistic view of modern psychiatry.


What do you mean by "similarly restrained by mental health professionals"? Where did I mention the church as "locking "people in "straight jackets"? I was moreso refering in my comments to ignorance and the lack of medical knowlege causing people to respond prejudicialy towards individuals affected with mental, neurological, genetic disorders as well as those affected by biological factors such as leprosy victims.

Which practices of mental health care professionals are you refering to? Which current practices of the church are you assuming I would see as "barbaric"?

Exactly.... The church isn't locking anyone up in straight jackets, its the mental health professionals that are doing those kind of barbaric things, and sometimes they do even worse. Did you know that lobotomies are actually still being performed? Some of the other CURRENT practices of mental health professionals will probably be viewed as barbaric in a few years.

[Adam]

I'm really sorry about that, it is so sad and I pray that God understands the conditions that lead to this and granted her mercy. Also, this is something I feel really uncomfortable talking about, but I'm bi-polar and I've also had first-hand experiences with delusional thinking that resulted in my own suicide attempt. I don't know the circumstances around your mother's death, but what happened to me was that suicide somehow seemed like a rational solution at a time when I had become delusional during withdrawals from drug addiction. At any other time, suicide would never be anything I would have ever considered, but in a delusional state somehow suicide seemed like a legitimate alternative. This is really hard to explain, but when you're having delusions, it can be extremely painful because you've lost control of your mind and don't know if you will ever regain control of it, it is both painful and extremely frightening, and perhaps the only visible solution to the problem is suicide. I don't know if this was the case with your mother, or not, but sometimes I just want to reassure people that their lost loved ones probably loved them very much and, at the time of their suicide, couldn't comprehend that 'suicide' was permanent and would cause grief to their loved ones. They just wanted the pain to stop, and in their delusional state could only think of one solution without necessarily understanding the consequences of their actions.
Obviously the biggest thing I needed to do was stop taking drugs, they're just that much worse for someone who is bipolar. What saved me was a belief in Christ and living according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. As for dealing with bipolar, living according to the teachings of the church is also a huge help for me dealing with this condition. But nobody, and I mean nobody, in the mental health profession told me these things. I'm glad to hear that this advice is offered, on occasion, but for the most part the timeless wisdom of Christian living has ceased to be something seen as beneficial by mental health professionals. Christ can help, he really can. Is that all that is necessary, in many instances it is not, but in some instances, like mine, it is.
Well, again, I never said that a clergy member should treat cancer or someone bipolar. I've only said that modern psychiatrists often discards the wisdom of God. I think it would be ignorant if a clergyman discarded medical wisdom, why isn't it just as ignorant for a mental health professional to discard the wisdom of God?
Well, like I mentioned, I'm bipolar, so I've had quite a lot of personal experience with this and know first-hand that it does NOT necessitate drug therapy. There is a spectrum of severity to the condition, from light, to severe, and there are some psychiatrists that will let people with light conditions avoid taking prescription drugs. Thankfully my case is light, and the way it was determined to be light was that I don't have hallucinations during peaks of mania, or valleys of depression. My only experience with delusional thinking was during withdrawals from drug addiction, so I do know some of the horrors that people can experience with severe mental conditions.
With a bipolar condition, and a lot of mental illnesses, you have to consider that psychiatric treatment is fairly new in the whole scheme of things and, in many respects, they don't really know what their doing yet. Only 10 years ago I was diagnosed as clinically depressed and prescribed lots of drugs for depression. Just in the past few years has there been evidence that treatment for depression can lead to rapid cycling for people suffering from a bipolar condition. They really don't understand the long term effects of many of the drugs they are currently prescribing.
Another thing to consider is that a clinically depressed person 10 years ago, can be clinical bipolar today, and who knows what we'll be in another 10 years even though our condition really hasn't changed, its psychiatry that has changed. I'm fairly certain that we'll look back on the psychiatric drugs a lot of people are ingesting today with horror. We're really a bunch of guinea pigs to modern psychiatry, sometimes they help, sometimes they can't do anything, and sometimes they can cause a lot of damage.
Please don't misunderstand me to be condemning all of psychiatry. Obviously they help a lot of people, but you'll also have to admit that sometimes that can't help, and sometimes they cause harm. It is just as important for us to recognize their limitations as it is to accept their diagnosis. I hope this is a realistic view of modern psychiatry.
Exactly.... The church isn't locking anyone up in straight jackets, its the mental health professionals that are doing those kind of barbaric things, and sometimes they do even worse. Did you know that lobotomies are actually still being performed? Some of the other CURRENT practices of mental health professionals will probably be viewed as barbaric in a few years.
Yo, Hail Mary,
I'm bi-polar, too.
Like you, I have a very mild case.
Yeah, so mild that's we're duking it out as I type over on Ecclesiology 201 on the thread about the Warsaw Archbishop who was just appointed in spite of admitting to just recently lying about not having been a Communist collaborator. (There, HM, now you're really mad at me. A little, maybe a lot, manic, are we?)
Oh, and you're wrong about bipolars necessarily having hallucinations in a severe case. Bipolar Disorder is an affective disorder, it affects the emotional state and not the mind as such. Seeing things not there and hearing voices changes the diagnosis to schizo-affective.
Adam

[Hail Mary]

Yo, Hail Mary,
I'm bi-polar, too.
Like you, I have a very mild case.
Yeah, so mild that's we're duking it out as I type over on Ecclesiology 201 on the thread about the Warsaw Archbishop who was just appointed in spite of admitting to just recently lying about not having been a Communist collaborator. (There, HM, now you're really mad at me. A little, maybe a lot, manic, are we?)
Oh, and you're wrong about bipolars necessarily having hallucinations in a severe case. Bipolar Disorder is an affective disorder, it affects the emotional state and not the mind as such. Seeing things not there and hearing voices changes the diagnosis to schizo-affective.
Adam

Hi Adam :teeth: Who me, mad? Thanks for the note about bipolar. Bipolar I Disorder can produce psychosis and hallucinations. So there, and you're old man too! (JOKING!) But I think you're right that a severe case doesn't necessarily mean hallucinations, in fact, the way my doctor initially decided that I had a mild case was that I hadn't been committed (yet). Yikes, I guess that's nice to know. How did they figure out your case was mild?

I'm probably going to leave the archbishop thread alone for awhile :smile:
Jerry

[Dee Dee Warren]

Hmmm, I didn't say psychiatrists and medicine are complete bunk. Sometimes (perhaps the vast majority of times) its not complete bunk and is extremely helpful. But will you agree that sometimes it IS complete bunk?

Anything in life is complete bunk. I have a neurological condition right now, I think I finally got the source of it straightened down. For two years I went to doctors who were complete bunk. Do I now start a thread on neurologists? Or how about the fact that I had an undiagnosed bladder problem though I kept going to doctors and complaining for FIVE years then I finally got it diagnosed, are all urologists and gynecologists complete bunk? No. So why do we get so oochy when it comes to this?

[Adam]

Hi Adam :teeth: Who me, mad? Thanks for the note about bipolar. Bipolar I Disorder can produce psychosis and hallucinations. So there, and you're old man too! (JOKING!) But I think you're right that a severe case doesn't necessarily mean hallucinations, in fact, the way my doctor initially decided that I had a mild case was that I hadn't been committed (yet). Yikes, I guess that's nice to know. How did they figure out your case was mild?
I'm probably going to leave the archbishop thread alone for awhile :smile:
Jerry
Here on the Left Coast my health plan Kaiser Permanente avoids official diagnoses. They put me on lithium in 1985 and my mania subsided. Even a minimal dose of lithium eventually arcs over into depression for me, so I must be a mild case. A decade later when I first heard about Bipolar II, I had all the symptoms, like migraine headaches. All the old remedies for bipolar now give me migraine headaches, so now I am reduced to alternate-day doses of tiny amounts of trileptal, lamictal, neurontin, and when a migraine strikes I take my zyprexa at that time. (It's a new therapy for cluster headaches, so I guess my migraines are a mild form of cluster headache.)
I have a daughter with Bipolar I so extreme that when she had her daughter (and then could resume her meds), she didn't even ask about the baby for two weeks. (Fortunately my granddaughter seems fine so far, getting "A's" in high school now.) My other daughter suffers some depression, and my only son is schizophrenic and completely unable to function, apparently due to me being 40 when he was born. (New research has shown schizophrenia to be twice as likely for people born of fathers aged 40 and not 20.)
My rule of thumb for whether bipolar is severe is to ask, "Have you ever been institutionalized or incarcerated?" If neither, the bipolar is mild. I've been neither, but I have been unable to work for months at a time while clinically depressed (last incidence in 1991, and hopefully I'm too old for it to recur, and I can just retire, anyway.) My rule of thumb for whether someone is bipolar is, "Do you climb steps two or more at a time?" If yes, you're bipolar.
Adam
Right, time for a truce in the Ecclesiology thread.

[Adam]

Hi Adam :teeth: Who me, mad? Thanks for the note about bipolar. Bipolar I Disorder can produce psychosis and hallucinations. So there, and you're old man too! (JOKING!) But I think you're right that a severe case doesn't necessarily mean hallucinations, in fact, the way my doctor initially decided that I had a mild case was that I hadn't been committed (yet). Yikes, I guess that's nice to know. How did they figure out your case was mild?
I'm probably going to leave the archbishop thread alone for awhile :smile:
Jerry
Here on the Left Coast my health plan Kaiser Permanente avoids official diagnoses. They put me on lithium in 1985 and my mania subsided. Even a minimal dose of lithium eventually arcs over into depression for me, so I must be a mild case. A decade later when I first heard about Bipolar II, I had all the symptoms, like migraine headaches. All the old remedies for bipolar now give me migraine headaches, so now I am reduced to alternate-day doses of tiny amounts of trileptal, lamictal, neurontin, and when a migraine strikes I take my zyprexa at that time. (It's a new therapy for cluster headaches, so I guess my migraines are a mild form of cluster headache.)
I have a daughter with Bipolar I so extreme that when she had her daughter (and then could resume her meds), she didn't even ask about the baby for two weeks. (Fortunately my granddaughter seems fine so far, getting "A's" in high school now.) My other daughter suffers some depression, and my only son is schizophrenic and completely unable to function, apparently due to me being 40 when he was born. (New research has shown schizophrenia to be twice as likely for people born of fathers aged 40 and not 20.)
My rule of thumb for whether bipolar is severe is to ask, "Have you ever been institutionalized or incarcerated?" If neither, the bipolar is mild. I've been neither, but I have been unable to work for months at a time while clinically depressed (last incidence in 1991, and hopefully I'm too old for it to recur, and I can just retire, anyway.) My rule of thumb for whether someone is bipolar is, "Do you climb steps two or more at a time?" If yes, you're bipolar (and in the manic phase).
Adam
Right, time for a truce in the Ecclesiology thread.

[Hail Mary]

Here on the Left Coast my health plan Kaiser Permanente avoids official diagnoses. They put me on lithium in 1985 and my mania subsided. Even a minimal dose of lithium eventually arcs over into depression for me, so I must be a mild case. A decade later when I first heard about Bipolar II, I had all the symptoms, like migraine headaches. All the old remedies for bipolar now give me migraine headaches, so now I am reduced to alternate-day doses of tiny amounts of trileptal, lamictal, neurontin, and when a migraine strikes I take my zyprexa at that time. (It's a new therapy for cluster headaches, so I guess my migraines are a mild form of cluster headache.)
I have a daughter with Bipolar I so extreme that when she had her daughter (and then could resume her meds), she didn't even ask about the baby for two weeks. (Fortunately my granddaughter seems fine so far, getting "A's" in high school now.) My other daughter suffers some depression, and my only son is schizophrenic and completely unable to function, apparently due to me being 40 when he was born. (New research has shown schizophrenia to be twice as likely for people born of fathers aged 40 and not 20.)
My rule of thumb for whether bipolar is severe is to ask, "Have you ever been institutionalized or incarcerated?" If neither, the bipolar is mild. I've been neither, but I have been unable to work for months at a time while clinically depressed (last incidence in 1991, and hopefully I'm too old for it to recur, and I can just retire, anyway.) My rule of thumb for whether someone is bipolar is, "Do you climb steps two or more at a time?" If yes, you're bipolar (and in the manic phase).
Adam
Right, time for a truce in the Ecclesiology thread.

Hi Adam, I am really sorry to hear about your son with schizophrenia, that is really tough. Well, I'm sorry about all of the hereditary problems in your family, but a case of schizophrenia is really tough. Its one thing for me to have problems, but I would gladly suffer all kinds of things rather than my children. These kind of problems run in my family too. My cousin is Bi Polar I (with hallucinations), lots of depression, but so far nothing has shown itself in my children.

I pray that we've made it though the hardest part of all this. I definitely think I have, and just living in the Catholic liturgical calendar gives me a nice foundation that helps avoid the otherwise unbounded highs and lows.

Another good rule of thumb question might be to ask how often to you stay up all night? :smile:

[Adam]

Another good rule of thumb question might be to ask how often to [sic--"do"] you stay up all night? :smile:
I don't understand whether you are making a statement or asking a personal question.
Yes, the general rule is that the Bipolar manic state includes sleeping very little, a hyper-manic maybe even going days without sleep. Conversely, a depressed state may involve sleeping long hours or at least staying in bed feeling too low to get up.
As for me personally, I have always been a person who needs my sleep at night--with two exceptions. I sleep almost normally while manic (with me rarely beyond hypomanic). It was when I was depressed in late 1990 that I could not fall asleep. Xanax was my salvation to get beyond an anxiety that wouldn't quit. (The other exeption was while in officers's candidate school in 1966 when they fed us so little that I wouldn't feel sleepy enough at night to require more than two hours sleep. Then during the day I would fall asleep unless I remained in motion or standing. But all the guys were the same way, that was not a Bipolar thing.)
Adam

[Smokering]

There's something that doesn't sit right with me about prescribing Christianity as a therapy or drug. Quite apart from the issue of mental illnesses requiring actual medicine, that's not what Christianity is for. It's for salvation, not for calming one down or making one less depressed. Certainly more people should live a Christian lifestyle--God commanded the world to do so, whether or not it was bipolar or depressed--but they shouldn't just live the lifestyle because they find the music at church soothing, or the cell group supportive. Being a Christian is different to finding the outward aspects of Christianity useful or therapeutic. I may have misunderstood the intent of the original post on this subject, and I hope I did. For a non-Christian counsellor to recommend outward Christianity as a therapy tool is a perversion, easily replacable with any other ritualistic, supportive community (a choir, gardening club or whatever); for a Christian counsellor to do the same is to be extremely dishonest, neglecting the person's salvation.

I might also point out that Christianity, inward or outward, does not 'cure' mental diseases or conditions. Some Christians find the warm fellowship of church a blessing; I, with mild Asperger's and occasional depression, find it abhorrent and long to be alone! I don't go to church because it helps me, but because God commanded it. Church-as-therapy falls down on that statement alone.

[Hail Mary]

There's something that doesn't sit right with me about prescribing Christianity as a therapy or drug. Quite apart from the issue of mental illnesses requiring actual medicine, that's not what Christianity is for.

Mental illnesses require treatment and not necessarily medicine, although sometimes medicine is certainly necessary.


It's for salvation, not for calming one down or making one less depressed.

Effective treatment IS a part of salvation for some people.


Certainly more people should live a Christian lifestyle--God commanded the world to do so, whether or not it was bipolar or depressed--but they shouldn't just live the lifestyle because they find the music at church soothing, or the cell group supportive. Being a Christian is different to finding the outward aspects of Christianity useful or therapeutic. I may have misunderstood the intent of the original post on this subject, and I hope I did. For a non-Christian counsellor to recommend outward Christianity as a therapy tool is a perversion, easily replacable with any other ritualistic, supportive community (a choir, gardening club or whatever); for a Christian counsellor to do the same is to be extremely dishonest, neglecting the person's salvation.

They should live the lifestyle because they love God and keep his commandants, and through this lifestyle some people find inner peace. St Augustine said "Our hearts are restless until we find our rest in Thee.” I think nowadays doctors may have wanted to gear St Augustine up on anxiety prevention drugs.

Also, there is no such thing as 'outward' Christianity. Christianity is complete, both inward and outward. Without both, Christianity is not really present at all. Even for other ritualistic activities, inner peace can not be attained by anything practiced outwardly.


I might also point out that Christianity, inward or outward, does not 'cure' mental diseases or conditions. Some Christians find the warm fellowship of church a blessing; I, with mild Asperger's and occasional depression, find it abhorrent and long to be alone! I don't go to church because it helps me, but because God commanded it. Church-as-therapy falls down on that statement alone.

I certainly didn't recommend Church-as-therapy. I think you're going back to some idea that Christianity can be outwards or inwards, it is both.

[Rahab]

You didn't answer my question. Wouldn't you agree that diagnosis of a clinical condition is highly subjective? I did answer your question by pointing you to the primary diagnostic guide which is to be used by professional health care providers. A marge of error is always possible as it is in ANY other fields of medicine. To reach the extreme as you did earlier IMO is unreasonable. Why not targeting with similar comments oncology, cardiology, gastro enterology etc....?




There is a huge big difference in diagnosing problems with, say, knee injuries and mental illnesses. Scientific knowledge of the workings of the knee is pretty good. Scientific knowledge of the workings of the brain is relatively primitive. Primitive? What makes exploration of the brain difficult is that procedures such as a biopsy would in fact cause irreparable damages. It is the cellular composition of the brain which limits a direct physical exploration. Brain cells not having the regeneration process other organs' cells have. However, as I mentionned earlier, medical technology such as MRIs and Cat Scans allow for an observation of which biochemical activities and their levels are impaired and may confirm an initial diagnostic.



.
I don't see how you arrive at this question either. Nothing I've said can be construed as implying that medical science is not the product of God's wisdom. Psychiatry and neuro psychiatry are a medical science. As you claim that they dismiss God's Wisdom, you separate the necessary knowlege of such medicine from God's Wisdom. My claim is that God has equipped our species with unique abilities resulting in attaining a necessary knowlege to improve the human condition. In that sense, I do not dismiss medicine, any fields, as being separate from God's Wisdom.




I agree with this, but please answer this question. What would modern psychiatry say about St Paul's experience on the road to Damascus? He heard voices and had hallucinations. Is there any doubt whatsoever that he would have been diagnosed as a schizophrenic and put on some heavy doses of haldol or whatever. For your info, diagnosing schizophrenia does not rely solely on observing auditive and visual hallucinations. There is a multitude of factors which may cause a person to experience such symptoms. So ,no, modern psychiatry would not conclude that Paul was a schizophrenic.





I agree that is distressing and irritating, but hopefully you can see that I'm not doing it. Thanks for clarifying your intentions.




I'm really sorry about that, it is so sad and I pray that God understands the conditions that lead to this and granted her mercy. Thank you. Part of my process of acceptance of her choice was to consider the Grace of God which I believe applies systematicaly to those whose minds live in permanent dereliction and intense distress.

.
Also, this is something I feel really uncomfortable talking about, but I'm bi-polar and I've also had first-hand experiences with delusional thinking that resulted in my own suicide attempt. I hope you can see that bipolar sufferers do share openly their experiences in some of T Web forums. May I ask why it is "something you really feel uncomfortable talking about"? Has anyone in your life made you feel ashame ? Has anyone attempted to make you feel guilty when you attempted suicide? I realize those are very personal questions and I do understand if you prefer to not answer them as this time.





I don't know the circumstances around your mother's death, but what happened to me was that suicide somehow seemed like a rational solution at a time when I had become delusional during withdrawals from drug addiction. At any other time, suicide would never be anything I would have ever considered, but in a delusional state somehow suicide seemed like a legitimate alternative. This is really hard to explain, but when you're having delusions, it can be extremely painful because you've lost control of your mind and don't know if you will ever regain control of it, it is both painful and extremely frightening, and perhaps the only visible solution to the problem is suicide. I understand. It seems though that you were aware and cogniscient that you had such episodes of delusion. My mother did not. Even in her relatively stable moments (rare), she still justified somehow her delusional thoughts. Neuroleptics and anti psychotic drugs could only demean the extent of her symptoms to the point of preventing self destructive behaviors and harm to other persons.However, do note that it is as she would each time quit her treatments or decrease her dosage on her own that she would relapse into the most extreme episodes. We could observe the same pattern each time.





I don't know if this was the case with your mother, or not, but sometimes I just want to reassure people that their lost loved ones probably loved them very much and, at the time of their suicide, couldn't comprehend that 'suicide' was permanent and would cause grief to their loved ones. They just wanted the pain to stop, and in their delusional state could only think of one solution without necessarily understanding the consequences of their actions. That is a very caring intention on your part. My mother was undoubtly worn out by life itself. Reoccuring hospitalizations (which I had to "force" on her to keep her safe from herself) were a restriction to her freedom of action. IMO, she made a statement of assuming her own freedom in her suicide. The other contributing factor was the revelation in her last letter to me that her breast cancer had resurged.

.
Obviously the biggest thing I needed to do was stop taking drugs, they're just that much worse for someone who is bipolar. What saved me was a belief in Christ and living according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Christian faith has the quality of motivating people to climb out of their "gutter".Good for you, Hail Mary!

.
As for dealing with bipolar, living according to the teachings of the church is also a huge help for me dealing with this condition. But nobody, and I mean nobody, in the mental health profession told me these things. I'm glad to hear that this advice is offered, on occasion, but for the most part the timeless wisdom of Christian living has ceased to be something seen as beneficial by mental health professionals. Where we differ completely is that you seem to envision Christian living as a medical treatment to clinical conditions. I envision it as a support tool to medical treatment.No differently than I envision holistic medicine as a support tool to conventional treatments.





.
Christ can help, he really can. Is that all that is necessary, in many instances it is not, but in some instances, like mine, it is. If your choice to bypass medical intervention was confirmed as reasonable by health care professionals familiar with your degree of bipolarism and you have educated yourself as to confirming that your degree does not necessitate the use of pharmacology, if you feel confident that you can evaluate when and if there is any onset of new symptoms, then your choice seems reasonable.

In any case, and I do insist on that, christians who do not make your choice are not less faithful to Christ nor are they defficient in any way shape or form in their faith.



.
Well, again, I never said that a clergy member should treat cancer or someone bipolar. I've only said that modern psychiatrists often discards the wisdom of God. I think it would be ignorant if a clergyman discarded medical wisdom, why isn't it just as ignorant for a mental health professional to discard the wisdom of God? Again, because a CLINICAL condition requires MEDICAL attention. That is the professional role of neuro psychiatrists and psychiatrists. No differently than the professional role of an oncologist.

You seem to separate mental illnesses from other physical illnesses. Why is that?



.
Well, like I mentioned, I'm bipolar, so I've had quite a lot of personal experience with this and know first-hand that it does NOT necessitate drug therapy. There is a spectrum of severity to the condition, from light, to severe, and there are some psychiatrists that will let people with light conditions avoid taking prescription drugs. Thankfully my case is light, and the way it was determined to be light was that I don't have hallucinations during peaks of mania, or valleys of depression. My only experience with delusional thinking was during withdrawals from drug addiction, so I do know some of the horrors that people can experience with severe mental conditions. And again, if your choice to not use pharmacology was influenced by the advice of mental health care professionals and after thorough evaluation, then your choice is based on reasonable factors. As far as self evaluation only, I always caution people on that topic. The same way I would not venture as making a self evaluation of my cancer and make any decisions without medical advice.

.
With a bipolar condition, and a lot of mental illnesses, you have to consider that psychiatric treatment is fairly new in the whole scheme of things and, in many respects, they don't really know what their doing yet. Only 10 years ago I was diagnosed as clinically depressed and prescribed lots of drugs for depression. Just in the past few years has there been evidence that treatment for depression can lead to rapid cycling for people suffering from a bipolar condition. They really don't understand the long term effects of many of the drugs they are currently prescribing. That is not unique to psychiatry. In oncology, the same predicament occurs as the long term effects of newest chemo drugs are yet to be observed. I compare both fields as they often both deal with uncurable conditions.Thus the goal is to keep patients in a remission status and functional level of living conditions.Until hopefuly cures can be found.

.
Another thing to consider is that a clinically depressed person 10 years ago, can be clinical bipolar today, and who knows what we'll be in another 10 years even though our condition really hasn't changed, its psychiatry that has changed. I'm fairly certain that we'll look back on the psychiatric drugs a lot of people are ingesting today with horror. We're really a bunch of guinea pigs to modern psychiatry, sometimes they help, sometimes they can't do anything, and sometimes they can cause a lot of damage.. Same evaluation can be made of oncology. High toxicity chemo treatments such as the C.H.O.P undoubtly cause destructive side effects. However, most of us will make that choice rather than facing a terminal prognosis. When it comes to uncurable clinical conditions , the choice to not treat them implies reducing the chances of functional maintenance until a cure can be found. Considering how the depressive episodes of bipolarism may lead to suicidal tendencies, I certainly would caution anyone to rely on self evaluation to decide to dismiss any medical treatments.



Please don't misunderstand me to be condemning all of psychiatry. Obviously they help a lot of people, but you'll also have to admit that sometimes that can't help, and sometimes they cause harm. It is just as important for us to recognize their limitations as it is to accept their diagnosis. I hope this is a realistic view of modern psychiatry. As I mentionned earlier, once diagnosed with a mental disorder, such patient can research all the available data to make a reasonable decision. To include taking a second and third medical opinion. No differently than a cancer patient would and should.However, the difficulty with some mental illnesses, is the state of DENIAL such person may be in. As part of the delusional aspect of their illness. In those situations, it is often close family members who raise the "red flag" and have to intervene.



.
Exactly.... The church isn't locking anyone up in straight jackets, its the mental health professionals that are doing those kind of barbaric things, and sometimes they do even worse. Did you know that lobotomies are actually still being performed? Some of the other CURRENT practices of mental health professionals will probably be viewed as barbaric in a few years. Surgical leukotomies are illegal in several states as well as some countries. The controversial aspects of such procedures have been emphasized since the 60's when it was arbitrarely used to treat specific severe mental disorders. Not taking into account personality changes resulting from severing some connections in the frontal cortex lobe. Some remaining with a childlike demeanor, others encountering permanent neuro motor disabilities.

Electro shock therapy is another controversial treatment mostly because it also affects the personality of the patient to the point of lethargy.

However, in both cases, those procedures are used only as all fails.

As far as "barbaric" goes, the same can be told of oncology when we consider years from now a radical masectomy.Or colostomy.

I would still like to know which current practices of the church are you assuming I would find barbaric.(by church, I am assuming you mean the RCC which I am quite familiar with since I was raised as a catholic in my country of origine).

[Rahab]

Mental illnesses require treatment and not necessarily medicine, although sometimes medicine is certainly necessary. It seems to me that we are giving different meanings to the terms "mental illnesses". I am diligent as to specifying CLINICAL conditions for that reason. The same way I have for you earlier defined the different roles of psychology and psychiatry.

I need to tell you that ANY clinical condition whether it results in mental or physical impairments of any kinds necessitates MEDICAL intervention.

When it comes to clinical mental conditions resulting from a biochemical or hormonal unbalance, medical intervention is a necessity. Bipolarism being one of them. Dysfunctional neurotransmitters will not become functional by forsaking medical intervention.

The same way, hormonal unbalances occuring during peri menopausal cycles do not become functional again by forsaking medical intervention. None of us having reached such cycle can control their symptoms to include possible drastic mood changes, physical discomfort such as insomnia, hot flashes, mild urinary incontinence etc...Though hormonal replacement therapy is not a necessity to control such symptoms, alternative medical treatments such as a low dose serotonine inhibitor will reduce the mood swings and permit better sleep. Cymbalta at low dose also controls bladder dysfunctionment, hot flushes, mood swings and sleep disorders.

[Hail Mary]

I did answer your question by pointing you to the primary diagnostic guide which is to be used by professional health care providers. A marge of error is always possible as it is in ANY other fields of medicine. To reach the extreme as you did earlier IMO is unreasonable. Why not targeting with similar comments oncology, cardiology, gastro enterology etc....?

With cardiology, you can get a very accurate measure of the amount of blockage in an artery. This is an objective measurement. The artery is 99% blocked, time for surgery.

With a mental condition, such as anxiety disorder or bipolar, the patient is FIRST asked a series of HIGHLY subjective questions, such as: Do you often feel anxious? Both "often" and "anxious" are highly subjective, and are asked to a patient that probably wants some kind of relief and is ready to say yes to just about anything the doctor asks. The doctor then tries to apply their subjective analysis to the patient's answer, then (and only then) can they go do the diagnostic guide. But this is after two layers of subjective analysis.


Primitive? What makes exploration of the brain difficult is that procedures such as a biopsy would in fact cause irreparable damages. It is the cellular composition of the brain which limits a direct physical exploration. Brain cells not having the regeneration process other organs' cells have. However, as I mentionned earlier, medical technology such as MRIs and Cat Scans allow for an observation of which biochemical activities and their levels are impaired and may confirm an initial diagnostic.

Yes, our knowledge of the working of the brain is very (very, very) primitive. Why do we sleep? Why do we dream? We don't even really know that, some people have theories, but we don't really know.

On the other hand, if you ask why our knee bends, that's fairly well understood.


. Psychiatry and neuro psychiatry are a medical science. As you claim that they dismiss God's Wisdom, you separate the necessary knowlege of such medicine from God's Wisdom. My claim is that God has equipped our species with unique abilities resulting in attaining a necessary knowlege to improve the human condition. In that sense, I do not dismiss medicine, any fields, as being separate from God's Wisdom.

Can a doctor recommend tending to their salvation for a patient? Does anyone do that?


For your info, diagnosing schizophrenia does not rely solely on observing auditive and visual hallucinations. There is a multitude of factors which may cause a person to experience such symptoms. So ,no, modern psychiatry would not conclude that Paul was a schizophrenic.

Then what would a psychiatrist's diagnosis be? I think a non-diagnosis would probably leave them wide-open to a huge medical malpractice suit. They would have to treat St Paul somehow. If you don't believe me, why don't you walk into a psychiatrist's office and tell him you saw a bright light and heard a voice asking why you engaged in theological discussions, afterwhich you were struck down and unable to move, and furthermore you are convinced it was the voice of Jesus. Get ready to be sent to the asylum for a few weeks while you try to convince them you were just testing something, that is, if you're able to function because of all the haldol they're pumping in you.


. I hope you can see that bipolar sufferers do share openly their experiences in some of T Web forums. May I ask why it is "something you really feel uncomfortable talking about"? Has anyone in your life made you feel ashame ? Has anyone attempted to make you feel guilty when you attempted suicide? I realize those are very personal questions and I do understand if you prefer to not answer them as this time.

I understand. It seems though that you were aware and cogniscient that you had such episodes of delusion. My mother did not. Even in her relatively stable moments (rare), she still justified somehow her delusional thoughts. Neuroleptics and anti psychotic drugs could only demean the extent of her symptoms to the point of preventing self destructive behaviors and harm to other persons.However, do note that it is as she would each time quit her treatments or decrease her dosage on her own that she would relapse into the most extreme episodes. We could observe the same pattern each time.

I'm avoiding the first question :smile: But, the drugs can be very, very unpleasant so it makes sense to me that there would be a desire to get off the drugs. If that is the patient's desire, I wish the doctors would try to help out more with something like weaning them off the drugs slowly and/or providing them with an alternative living arrangement that helps keep them safe. I guess that means a sanitarium, but if I had the choice of living every day on haldol or living drug free in a sanitarium, I would really have to think hard about which one I really wanted because the drug is so unpleasant.

Actually, I haven't really experienced the hardcore anti-psychotics, but I was on something (which I can't remember at this time) that felt like somebody hung a big bag of bricks in my brain. Maybe a better analogy would be to say that thinking on this drug felt a lot like trying to run a sprint in a swimming pool. My mind just wouldn't move like it should have. For me the drugs were a LOT worse than the condition itself. I know this is not generally true, but it happens.


. Where we differ completely is that you seem to envision Christian living as a medical treatment to clinical conditions. I envision it as a support tool to medical treatment.No differently than I envision holistic medicine as a support tool to conventional treatments.

If Christian living was evaluated as a treatment, what would the results be? That's what I'm asking. You seem to preclude the possibility of even considering it. You also seem certain that including the word "clinical" into diagnosis makes some kind of big difference, it is still highly subjective. What is the difference between clinical anxiety disorder, and someone that often feels anxious? The only difference is a highly subjective evaluation of highly subjective criteria that adds the word clinical. There is also the problem of over treatment because of the threat of malpractice suits. If a person goes into a psychiatrist's office claiming to often feel depressed, then a huge majority of the time they'll leave with some prescription. (Or at least that is the way it works here in the USA)


In any case, and I do insist on that, christians who do not make your choice are not less faithful to Christ nor are they defficient in any way shape or form in their faith.

agreed.


. Again, because a CLINICAL condition requires MEDICAL attention. That is the professional role of neuro psychiatrists and psychiatrists. No differently than the professional role of an oncologist.

You seem to separate mental illnesses from other physical illnesses. Why is that?

Why do you consider them the same? There's a lot of difference between the two. If I go into a Dr's office and say my knee hurts, I'll get x-rays which the doctor can use to objectively determine if there's any knee damage. If I go into a Dr's office and say I'm depressed, this is evaluated much more subjectively. I'm given a questionnaire (of subjective questions) which the doctor subjectively evaluates.



. That is not unique to psychiatry. In oncology, the same predicament occurs as the long term effects of newest chemo drugs are yet to be observed. I compare both fields as they often both deal with uncurable conditions.Thus the goal is to keep patients in a remission status and functional level of living conditions.Until hopefuly cures can be found.

. Same evaluation can be made of oncology. High toxicity chemo treatments such as the C.H.O.P undoubtly cause destructive side effects. However, most of us will make that choice rather than facing a terminal prognosis. When it comes to uncurable clinical conditions , the choice to not treat them implies reducing the chances of functional maintenance until a cure can be found. Considering how the depressive episodes of bipolarism may lead to suicidal tendencies, I certainly would caution anyone to rely on self evaluation to decide to dismiss any medical treatments.

As I mentionned earlier, once diagnosed with a mental disorder, such patient can research all the available data to make a reasonable decision. To include taking a second and third medical opinion. No differently than a cancer patient would and should.However, the difficulty with some mental illnesses, is the state of DENIAL such person may be in. As part of the delusional aspect of their illness. In those situations, it is often close family members who raise the "red flag" and have to intervene.

. Surgical leukotomies are illegal in several states as well as some countries. The controversial aspects of such procedures have been emphasized since the 60's when it was arbitrarely used to treat specific severe mental disorders. Not taking into account personality changes resulting from severing some connections in the frontal cortex lobe. Some remaining with a childlike demeanor, others encountering permanent neuro motor disabilities.

Electro shock therapy is another controversial treatment mostly because it also affects the personality of the patient to the point of lethargy.

However, in both cases, those procedures are used only as all fails.

As far as "barbaric" goes, the same can be told of oncology when we consider years from now a radical masectomy.Or colostomy.

I would still like to know which current practices of the church are you assuming I would find barbaric.(by church, I am assuming you mean the RCC which I am quite familiar with since I was raised as a catholic in my country of origine).

Lobotomies are banned in some places, but they still occur in others. I can't think of anything more barbaric than a lobotomy. Well, I could probably think of something more barbaric, but I don't really want to.

Eventually, I think we'll understand the brain a lot more and computers will be used to help out with the functioning of the brain a lot like pacemakers are used now for the heart. When someone is depressed, the computer will trigger a counter response to feel happier. While this will definitely help out with severe cases, I think it will pose even bigger problems for our society than psychiatric drugs.


I need to tell you that ANY clinical condition whether it results in mental or physical impairments of any kinds necessitates MEDICAL intervention.

Requiring medical intervention is a lot different from requiring medicine. Anyway, by definition, a clinical condition has already been evaluated and thus intervened medically. So your conclusion is a bit like saying green grass necessitates a green color. Well, yes, it does, but does it need fertilizer?

[Rahab]

With cardiology, you can get a very accurate measure of the amount of blockage in an artery. This is an objective measurement. The artery is 99% blocked, time for surgery.

With a mental condition, such as anxiety disorder or bipolar, the patient is FIRST asked a series of HIGHLY subjective questions, such as: Do you often feel anxious? Both "often" and "anxious" are highly subjective, and are asked to a patient that probably wants some kind of relief and is ready to say yes to just about anything the doctor asks. The doctor then tries to apply their subjective analysis to the patient's answer, then (and only then) can they go do the diagnostic guide. But this is after two layers of subjective analysis. Again, you seem to envision that psychiatrists rely strictly on a questionnaire based approach to determine which symptoms correspond to any specific defined disorder from the DSM codes.

I currently have a patient evaluated for recently observed psychotic symptoms. The evaluation is there to determine if those symptoms are part of a pre existing condition preceeding her previous treatments (chemo, surgery and radio therapy) for a brain tumor.(she is now in total remission). She is undergoing very extensive tests to determine the cause of such newly developped symptoms. The team of neuro psychiatrists assigned to her case is far from relying on a subjective analysis. Also considering that they cannot rely on a direct questionnaire addressed to her because of her now permanent delusional and memory alterated condition.




Yes, our knowledge of the working of the brain is very (very, very) primitive. Why do we sleep? Why do we dream? We don't even really know that, some people have theories, but we don't really know. The fact that we can only rely at this time to what is refered to as the "contemporary theory on the function of dreams", does not justify labeling our knowlege of the working of the brain as "very (very, very) primitive. The research in that area is not extensively pursued for the reason that the function of dreaming is not considered a matter of human health as mental disorders are.


On the other hand, if you ask why our knee bends, that's fairly well understood. And if you ask me why NHD lymphomas affect primarely females who do not have common factors for potential cause, oncology has yet to figure out why. Yet, it would be exagerated to label oncology as "primitive" considering that current treatments allow for a survival rate over 50% for an uncurable cancer. As far as comparing a knee to the complexity of the human brain, heart or gastro intestinal function......




Can a doctor recommend tending to their salvation for a patient? Does anyone do that? Again and again, faith matters can play an important role in helping a patient cope with any given clinical condition. However, no licensed physician in any conventional fields of medicine is going to suggest that clinical conditions whether they affect the mental or physical aspect of our anatomy can be remedied, treated and cured by reading scriptures and attending church. I owe my remission from a fatal cancer to specific medical treatments which if I had dismissed them, I would not be alive today. I owe an overall positive state of mind during this ordeal to my faith. God gave me the Grace to accept my condition and deal with it peacefuly and with confidence.Which is extremely important to support my immune system.




Then what would a psychiatrist's diagnosis be? I think a non-diagnosis would probably leave them wide-open to a huge medical malpractice suit. They would have to treat St Paul somehow. If you don't believe me, why don't you walk into a psychiatrist's office and tell him you saw a bright light and heard a voice asking why you engaged in theological discussions, afterwhich you were struck down and unable to move, and furthermore you are convinced it was the voice of Jesus. You would need to address that question to a health care professional. Which I would suggest to you rather than speculating as you do now.




Get ready to be sent to the asylum for a few weeks while you try to convince them you were just testing something, that is, if you're able to function because of all the haldol they're pumping in you. You seem to be somehow convinced that psychiatrists thrive on forcefuly interning their patients. I took the time earlier to tell you that such institutionalization process regards the criminaly insane. Temporary psy admission is recommended for a person who attempted suicide. In both cases, such process is in place to prevent further harm to others or oneself.




I'm avoiding the first question :smile: But, the drugs can be very, very unpleasant so it makes sense to me that there would be a desire to get off the drugs. If that is the patient's desire, I wish the doctors would try to help out more with something like weaning them off the drugs slowly and/or providing them with an alternative living arrangement that helps keep them safe. I guess that means a sanitarium, but if I had the choice of living every day on haldol or living drug free in a sanitarium, I would really have to think hard about which one I really wanted because the drug is so unpleasant. Haldoperidol is specificaly an anti psychotic drug. It is prescribed to suppress delusion and hallucinations. Like any neuroleptics, it will produce unpleasant side effects. However, the benefits of interacting with the dopaminergic receptor resulting in the suppression of psychotic symptoms largely compensates for those side effects. Dosage is crucial for the administration of any neuroleptics.

As as far alternative living arrangements, I would think that the majority of people prefer to retain their usual living arrangements while remaining under medical treatment and supervision.


Actually, I haven't really experienced the hardcore anti-psychotics, but I was on something (which I can't remember at this time) that felt like somebody hung a big bag of bricks in my brain. Maybe a better analogy would be to say that thinking on this drug felt a lot like trying to run a sprint in a swimming pool. My mind just wouldn't move like it should have. For me the drugs were a LOT worse than the condition itself. I know this is not generally true, but it happens. It must have been very hard on you.




If Christian living was evaluated as a treatment, what would the results be? That's what I'm asking. You seem to preclude the possibility of even considering it. As a treatment for conditions CAUSED by a pathological, physiological, genetic or biological factor, no lifestyle alone will resolve the issues. It is IMO dangerous to think that religion is a cure to such illnesses, disorders, disabilities etc...Again, no extensive reading of scriptures and attendance to any church will fix the dysfunctionment of neurotransmitters. I fail to comprehend why you cannot accept such reality.
And again, I do not eliminate Christian faith as a positive factor in supporting and providing strength and comfort during of any of those health related issues.




You also seem certain that including the word "clinical" into diagnosis makes some kind of big difference, it is still highly subjective. What is the difference between clinical anxiety disorder, and someone that often feels anxious? Because the CAUSE in clinical conditions is different from non clinical conditions. Same way between clinical depression and circumstancial depression. Someone may feel depressed yet NOT suffer of clinical depression. By the way, what I am sharing here is common knowlege. I am surprised you are arguing the use of the word "clinical".





The only difference is a highly subjective evaluation of highly subjective criteria that adds the word clinical. You are expressing an opinion which seems to be based on your personal negative experience with mental health care.






There is also the problem of over treatment because of the threat of malpractice suits. If a person goes into a psychiatrist's office claiming to often feel depressed, then a huge majority of the time they'll leave with some prescription. (Or at least that is the way it works here in the USA) Actualy the way I have seen it work in the US is that a generalist will prescribe mild anti depressants (or low dose) to a patient mentionning feelings of depression. If that physician evaluates that his/her patient may require a psychiatric CONSULT, he/she will make that referral. Health care insurance plans do not just pick up the tab to see a specialist unless it is warranted.





Why do you consider them the same? There's a lot of difference between the two. If I go into a Dr's office and say my knee hurts, I'll get x-rays which the doctor can use to objectively determine if there's any knee damage. If I go into a Dr's office and say I'm depressed, this is evaluated much more subjectively. I'm given a questionnaire (of subjective questions) which the doctor subjectively evaluates. Again and again, conditions resulting from pathological, physiological, genetic or biological causes are not labeled differently because they affect the mental aspect of our anatomy. Why should they? You seem to almost be in denial that the mental aspect of our anatomy is susceptible to such causes. Do you acknowlege that the human brain controls behavior, sensorial perceptions and interpretation of those? Do you acknowlege that your hypothalamus controls the vast aray of responses and reactions? That any dysfunctionment or unsufficiency occuring within the brain will undoubtly affect behavior, responses, to include at times cognition and sensorial perception and neuro motor functions.

Are you in touch with all those physical realities?






Requiring medical intervention is a lot different from requiring medicine. Anyway, by definition, a clinical condition has already been evaluated and thus intervened medically. So your conclusion is a bit like saying green grass necessitates a green color. Well, yes, it does, but does it need fertilizer? I am afraid we are going in circles in our communication. Let me make it clear to you that the major red flag to raise IRW patients who have been prescribed any meds to remedy to their condition, is when they declare without any medical advice "I do not need them" "I am cured" "I am fine" "I am not sick".

[Hail Mary]

You are expressing an opinion which seems to be based on your personal negative experience with mental health care.

I agree that we are going in circles, so I'm posting a limited response because you seem like a really nice and intelligent person with whom I don't want to argue incessantly. (Especially after a long day at work)

But to comment on your statement above, you are correct, I have had some negative experiences with mental health care. Now, I would argue (but not incessantly) that my experiences are probably closer to the norm rather than being an exceptional case, but I don't really have any supportive data.

Also, my direct response to your statement above is that I think you are basing your opinions on unrealistic expectations of mental health care. For the vast majority of cases, its a 10 minute interview and 30 seconds to prescribe something. See you in 4 weeks. That doesn't leave much time for all the analysis you seem to think takes place in mental health cases.


You seem to almost be in denial that the mental aspect of our anatomy is susceptible to such causes. Do you acknowlege that the human brain controls behavior, sensorial perceptions and interpretation of those? Do you acknowlege that your hypothalamus controls the vast aray of responses and reactions? That any dysfunctionment or unsufficiency occuring within the brain will undoubtly affect behavior, responses, to include at times cognition and sensorial perception and neuro motor functions.

Are you in touch with all those physical realities?

Define reality. :smile: But, seriously I understand (on a very personal level) that the human brain controls behavior, perceptions, responses, etc... You don't seem to understand that espousing spiritual wellness does not contradict that in any way.

Also, I was really glad to hear about your recovery from cancer and would love to hear more about that. And, are you a Doctor?

[Desirae]

Psychology is evil because it doesn't acknowledge that humans have a soul and the possibility that process of thought are entwined with spiritual intervention. Psychiatry is a theory, Mental Illness and Demonic Possession have the same credibility as far as physical evidence is concernced. If you are skeptical of physical and mental health being influenced by spiritual well-being, then you should also be skeptical of the existence of biological brain diseases because there is no proof, the explanations for both is just theory. The Religious, spiritual and non-materialist should be concerned about psychotherapy and analysis because it's highly atheistic and materialistic. It's not exact and is seperated into denominations like Religion. Christians who acknowledge the atheistic practice and diagnoses of psychology/psychiatry are committing heresy.

Mose,

I am right with you, ready to whack the psychobabble from Oprah to Benny Hinn to James "The Hormone Buddy" Dobson (..."...choke!!..."...).

But, I cannot get away from the ongoing observations in my work and family experiences that all women are psychotic.

Some can hold their psychotic workings in check, but it is always there, ready to emergre at a triggering pressure, or emerge upon "Mr. Right" who is perceived to be willing to tolerate their psychotic needs.

Even Scripture shows the characteristics of genetic psychosis in women.

So much to say, so little time...

Desirae.

[Rahab]

I agree that we are going in circles, so I'm posting a limited response because you seem like a really nice and intelligent person with whom I don't want to argue incessantly. (Especially after a long day at work) Those types of arguments do not necessarely progress to something productive and end up back to where they started from. What is important to me is that people who read our exchanges do not confuse opinions with medical advices they are supposed to follow. We have differing views on psychiatry and I remain extremely cautious as to suggesting or implying that mental conditions can be self treated.


But to comment on your statement above, you are correct, I have had some negative experiences with mental health care. Now, I would argue (but not incessantly) that my experiences are probably closer to the norm rather than being an exceptional case, but I don't really have any supportive data. Some folks will respond positively to a treatment, others do not. Some physicians are more efficient or less efficients than others. In any case, my usual view is to urge seeking medical advice before making any decisions IRW quitting a treatment.


Also, my direct response to your statement above is that I think you are basing your opinions on unrealistic expectations of mental health care. For the vast majority of cases, its a 10 minute interview and 30 seconds to prescribe something. See you in 4 weeks. That doesn't leave much time for all the analysis you seem to think takes place in mental health cases. Again, that was your experience. Obviously if your diagnosis did not require extensive examination and evaluation as to which type of treatment was adequate, your physician did not consume his and your time and energy. In the specific case I have mentionned, obviously the treating physicians have to spend extensive assessment time and use complex and lengthy tests to evaluate the origine of her psychotic symptoms.




Define reality. :smile: But, seriously I understand (on a very personal level) that the human brain controls behavior, perceptions, responses, etc... You don't seem to understand that espousing spiritual wellness does not contradict that in any way. "espousing spiritual wellness" requires a functional mental state. I guarantee you that folks who suffer of delusion or dementia are not going to recieve spiritual teachings in any rational manner. You have to first stabilize their perception of the reality before you can hope to see them benefit of such teachings. And again, I never implied a contradiction. What I do maintain though is that religion alone does not remedy to clinical conditions.


Also, I was really glad to hear about your recovery from cancer and would love to hear more about that.

You can check some of my blogs on T Web where I kept notes of my treatment etc...(June 2005 and on)


And, are you a Doctor? No. Working in nursing.

[Rahab]

Mose,

I am right with you, ready to whack the psychobabble from Oprah to Benny Hinn to James "The Hormone Buddy" Dobson (..."...choke!!..."...).

But, I cannot get away from the ongoing observations in my work and family experiences that all women are psychotic.

Some can hold their psychotic workings in check, but it is always there, ready to emergre at a triggering pressure, or emerge upon "Mr. Right" who is perceived to be willing to tolerate their psychotic needs.

Even Scripture shows the characteristics of genetic psychosis in women.

So much to say, so little time...

Desirae. I am glad Scriptures have clarified that women do not suffer of a neurosis but a genetic psychosis.:lol:

[dd829]

ADD is one of the most over diagnosed disorders of all time. And I say this as one of the first people to be diagnosed with it. I've been on and off of meds for ADD since 1989. It blows my mind away how easy it is for a child to get a diagnosis of ADD these days. I had to spend several days at Children's hospital going through test after test. Now a days your regular doctor gives you a 7 question interview and starts your drugs. It's disturbing how quickly people get frustrated with parenting and want to resort to the drugs.

I completely agree with you on this one Pilgrim. As a Ritalin victim myself I know exactly what you're talking about.

My take on ADD is that it is not a problem. I have my own theory about it. People with ADD are more in touch with their subconscious mind(or more easily able to access it) than those without. This greatly increases intelligence as the subconscious is able to solve difficult or impossible problems without rational steps taken. Unfortunately for me, my thoughts are somewhat internalized and abstract and difficult to explain in words.

In any case, to attempt to remove this gift from us is probably the worse thing they can do.