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Cogito ergo sum

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The self-existent existence.

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  • The self-existent existence.

    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    <snip> . . . there is no such thing as nothingness which would mean that existence itself is infinite. Infinity is a difficult thing to imagine, that there is no end or boundary to existence, but the idea of nothingness is an even harder thing to imagine in my opinion.


    Therefore: the uncaused existence.
    Uncaused existence is self-existent.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

  • #2
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Uncaused existence is self-existent.
    True. The physical universe may be the self-existent uncaused existence.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      True. The physical universe may be the self-existent uncaused existence.
      The physical universe may include the uncaused existence. But it would also be more than that. Since the things in existence are not the uncaused existence proper. The universe including caused things which are not uncaused.
      So your argument is not valid, even if uncause existence as key part of the universe even with the universe being deemed uncaused in it origin, that is, having no origin being uncaused.

      The uncaused existence is one thing. The uncaused universe being more than the uncaused existence is a second thing.
      Last edited by 37818; 11-15-2015, 05:13 PM.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        The physical universe may include the uncaused existence. But it would also be more than that. Since the things in existence are not the existence proper.
        So your argument is not valid, even if uncause existence is key part of the universe even with the universe being deemed uncaused in it origin.
        You are stuck on the idea that that which is uncaused must needs be a thing distinct from those things which are caused. Being that the two exist within each other, the cause in the effect, and the effect in the cause, there would be no distinction between the one and the other.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          The physical universe may include the uncaused existence. But it would also be more than that. Since the things in existence are not the uncaused existence proper. The universe including caused things which are not uncaused.
          So your argument is not valid, even if uncause existence as key part of the universe even with the universe being deemed uncaused in it origin, that is, having no origin being uncaused.

          The uncaused existence is one thing. The uncaused universe being more than the uncaused existence is a second thing.
          The uncaused universe could possibly be have no origin and be 'all there is,' the uncaused existence. What evidence can you present that there is anything more than the physical universe.

          Other than that the above is an assertion of theistic belief in a theistic cosmogony. An assertion of belief is not a sufficient argument for the existence of God as the uncaused existence nor the uncaused cause.

          I am not presenting an argument either way. I am just presenting the limits of making such an argument for the existence of, nor the non-existence of a Source some call God(s) beyond our physical universe.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-15-2015, 05:25 PM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            The uncaused universe could possibly be have no origin and be 'all there is,' the uncaused existence. What evidence can you present that there is anything more than the physical universe.

            Other than that the above is an assertion of theistic belief in a theistic cosmogony. An assertion of belief is not a sufficient argument for the existence of God as the uncaused existence nor the uncaused cause.

            I am not presenting an argument either way. I am just presenting the limits of making such an argument for the existence of, nor the non-existence of a Source some call God(s) beyond our physical universe.
            To make the assertion that universe is that uncaused existence introduces caused things as uncaused which is false. Uncaused existence has no cause and needs no God. That the uncaused existence is the uncaused part of the universe, universe being defined as all that exists. The universe as a whole is not that uncaused existence.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              To make the assertion that universe is that uncaused existence introduces caused things as uncaused which is false. Uncaused existence has no cause and needs no God. That the uncaused existence is the uncaused part of the universe, universe being defined as all that exists. The universe as a whole is not that uncaused existence.
              This, again, is a theological assumption on your part and is apparently a premise in your argument for the existence of God. This premise is not accepted.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                This, again, is a theological assumption on your part and is apparently a premise in your argument for the existence of God. This premise is not accepted.
                First off the uncaused existence needs no God. Second, what is my argument that would identify the uncaused existence to be God? Atheist can argue that since the unaused existence needs no God there need not be a God nor any need to identify the uncaused existence as God. All the classical theistic arguements argue for an existence for God, do they not?
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  First off the uncaused existence needs no God. Second, what is my argument that would identify the uncaused existence to be God? Atheist can argue that since the unaused existence needs no God there need not be a God nor any need to identify the uncaused existence as God. All the classical theistic arguements argue for an existence for God, do they not?
                  Yes they do, but they fail, because the necessary premises for the arguments make them circular.

                  To make the assertion that universe is that uncaused existence introduces caused things as uncaused which is false. Uncaused existence has no cause and needs no God. That the uncaused existence is the uncaused part of the universe, universe being defined as all that exists. The universe as a whole is not that uncaused existence.
                  This statement argues for an uncaused existence other than the physical existence. Therefore, argues as a premise for the existence of God.
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-16-2015, 11:08 AM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Yes they do, but they fail, because the necessary premises for the arguments make them circular.
                    None of the classical arguments for the existence of God are circular. They do argue for God's existence. They do presume existence.


                    This statement argues for an uncaused existence other than the physical existence. Therefore, argues as a premise for the existence of God.
                    A physical existence requires matter. All physical matter as we know it is caused. There still has to be an uncaused existence. And what is the argument for the uncaused existence to be God? Which you have not presented or refuted. Denied yes.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      None of the classical arguments for the existence of God are circular. They do argue for God's existence. They do presume existence.


                      A physical existence requires matter. All physical matter as we know it is caused. There still has to be an uncaused existence. And what is the argument for the uncaused existence to be God? Which you have not presented or refuted. Denied yes.
                      Matter and energy are two sides of the same substance, the one converts into the other under certain natural conditions, and so there is no reason to assume that substance to have been created or caused.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Matter and energy are two sides of the same substance, the one converts into the other under certain natural conditions, and so there is no reason to assume that substance to have been created or caused.
                        There can be an infinite sequence of matter to energy, energy to matter, with no first event. But that interaction is a cause and effect with no first cause. But they are all caused. Not uncaused. mc2 > E and E > mc2 for that conversion there would be some type of cause.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          None of the classical arguments for the existence of God are circular. They do argue for God's existence. They do presume existence.
                          If you presume the existence of God in a logical argument it is circular.


                          A physical existence requires matter. All physical matter as we know it is caused. There still has to be an uncaused existence.
                          No, we are no longer living in a Newtonian world. The Quantum world of zero-point does not require matter. All our physical existence has no known cause.

                          False, the Quantum world has no known cause.

                          And what is the argument for the uncaused existence to be God? Which you have not presented or refuted. Denied yes.
                          There is not a good argument for the uncaused existence to be God or not God. It is possible that the uncaused existence is simply the physical existence, but beyond this there is not a good argument either way.

                          The existence of God cannot be proved nor disproved.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            There can be an infinite sequence of matter to energy, energy to matter, with no first event. But that interaction is a cause and effect with no first cause. But they are all caused. Not uncaused. mc2 > E and E > mc2 for that conversion there would be some type of cause.
                            Infinite sequences occur with in a time frame and cannot define a greater infinite time frame, which in and of itself is not composed of infinite sequences.

                            Yes, the cause would simply be Natural Law. There is no known possible cause for Natural Law.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Infinite sequences occur with in a time frame and cannot define a greater infinite time frame, which in and of itself is not composed of infinite sequences.
                              Makes no sense. Either there is an infinite sequence of caused events with no first event. Or there are only caused events which have a beginning and an end. Or maybe even both.

                              Yes, the cause would simply be Natural Law. There is no known possible cause for Natural Law.
                              So you call the uncaused cause: Natural Law. Uncaused existence and uncaused cause are two different things.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment

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