Free Will

[Griggsy]

How can God know the future since He is not there already to know it? So how can we have free will and yet He knows beforehand what we shall so ? No, I declare all that a cop out ! God as we would have to be limited to that extent. Yes, we are free and He doesn' t interfere with free will[ Hitler had his, denying it to his victims!]. So what! We still would not have free will for some other reason if He could know the future .And see the definitive refutation of the free will argument . And to answer another person in another thread I lost , it is indeed begging the question as Aquinas did in arguing for a first cause that one could not take away - that merely assumes a first cause! Lke Barry, V does not want to clean up after me![I have not been able to get new messages , so I tried somehing new to see if I could do so.] Hello!

[Pogotrucci]

Thought this forum was for theists only

[shunyadragon]

How can God know the future since He is not there already to know it? So how can we have free will and yet He knows beforehand what we shall so ? No, I declare all that a cop out ! God as we would have to be limited to that extent. Yes, we are free and He doesn' t interfere with free will[ Hitler had his, denying it to his victims!]. So what! We still would not have free will for some other reason if He could know the future .And see the definitive refutation of the free will argument . And to answer another person in another thread I lost , it is indeed begging the question as Aquinas did in arguing for a first cause that one could not take away - that merely assumes a first cause! Lke Barry, V does not want to clean up after me![I have not been able to get new messages , so I tried somehing new to see if I could do so.] Hello!

It probably should be moved to Apologetics.

[God_is_personal]

Well...if God "resists the proud", He's not respecting the free choice of proud people. And if He resists proud people, this can be for their own good...so they don't do themselves in as badly as they could if God just let them go.

And CAN you change whatever is really going to happen? So, you are a slave of your own destiny. "Have a nice ride." Everyone is riding in one's destiny of whatever really is going to happen to that person...including what choices you are going to make. Because of how you really ARE...you are going to make choices you make...NOT because you are free, but because your character is your DICTATOR!!! > unless, of course, God intervenes and gives you a boost in a better direction...away from how those dominating and dictatorial passions and reacting and ambitions can manipulate and waste us.

So, why do people even want to get started on the subject of "free will"? Why do we so intently "worship" free will...considering it is sort of not really in existence and God IS?

Did GENES evolve to make us so we would have these discussions? What does this have to do with needs in survival of the fittest?

[God_is_personal]

Griggsy's question > "How can God know the future since He is not there already to know it?" like how YOU can know what you're going to write, even though you aren't at that point of writing it, yet

> "So how can we have free will and yet He knows beforehand what we shall so ?" I never said we have free will. So, here we have a point that can refute the existence of free will!!! I myself believe in the existence of God, but NOT in the existence of really free will for humans. God is the One who is really free, not we.

And notice how it does say, "God resists the proud", in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5 > so, if God is resisting us in our pride, then He is NOT egg-zactly respecting us with freedom of choice...while we act in pride...I would say. (And this is good for us, how God resists us in our pride...so we don't get ourselves in as much trouble as we could if God were to let go of us. Talking about free will > if you're a parent and you LOVE your kids...how much free willing are you going to allow them, IF you care about them?)

"God is love." See 1 John 4:8&16. Freedom does people in, doesn't it?

Thank you, Griggsy . . . that was interesting to have your questions.

[Tladatsi]

Griggsy,

What makes you think God knows the future? I mean He obviously knows somethings about the future, as we all do (what time the sun will rise). Since God can do more things that we can He can know more things than we can (e.g. He knew that Sodom and Gomorrah were going to be destroyed since He was going to destroy them). However God does not know everything that is going to happen. He clearly did not know the talking snake was going to convince Adam and Eve to eath the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He did not know mankind would be corrupted by inter-marriage with the heavenly Watchers. He did not know that the Israelites would abandon Moses while Moses was up on the hill talking with God. The Bible seems to make clear that God does not know everything that is going to happen.



How can God know the future since He is not there already to know it? So how can we have free will and yet He knows beforehand what we shall so ? No, I declare all that a cop out ! God as we would have to be limited to that extent. Yes, we are free and He doesn' t interfere with free will[ Hitler had his, denying it to his victims!]. So what! We still would not have free will for some other reason if He could know the future .And see the definitive refutation of the free will argument . And to answer another person in another thread I lost , it is indeed begging the question as Aquinas did in arguing for a first cause that one could not take away - that merely assumes a first cause! Lke Barry, V does not want to clean up after me![I have not been able to get new messages , so I tried somehing new to see if I could do so.] Hello!

[shunyadragon]

Well...if God "resists the proud", He's not respecting the free choice of proud people. And if He resists proud people, this can be for their own good...so they don't do themselves in as badly as they could if God just let them go.

If God created Free Will as an attribute of humanity, why would he let them go for using it?



And CAN you change whatever is really going to happen? So, you are a slave of your own destiny. "Have a nice ride." Everyone is riding in one's destiny of whatever really is going to happen to that person...including what choices you are going to make. Because of how you really ARE...you are going to make choices you make...NOT because you are free, but because your character is your DICTATOR!!! > unless, of course, God intervenes and gives you a boost in a better direction...away from how those dominating and dictatorial passions and reacting and ambitions can manipulate and waste us.

Yes, I can and do make decisions and choices all the time. I cut the string holding me to the burdens of ancient paradyms.


So, why do people even want to get started on the subject of "free will"? Why do we so intently "worship" free will...considering it is sort of not really in existence and God IS?

No one here has suggested worshiping Free Will. Is an attribute of humanity, and ah . . . most believe we were created by God, if they believe in a theistic God. People in the Bible made Free Will decisions all the time.



Did GENES evolve to make us so we would have these discussions? What does this have to do with needs in survival of the fittest?

Survival of the fittest is often misunderstood and misrepresented, but that asside Free Will does have survival value for an intelligent opportunistic omnivore that needs to make intelligent choices in a hostle world to survive.

[mentored1]

Well met...


How can God know the future since He is not there already to know it?

That depends on a few things.

First, it assumes that time is linear and bound to indeterminate "free will" activity. Since free will is an absurdity in the strictest sense of the word, there are only a limited number of options to determine future courses. The fact that some people can gauge the odds in gambling or other predictive events shows that if the parameters can be grasped the future can be predicted.

Second, if God is anywhere he is everywhere. According to a theist view the universe emerges from God, creation is bound to God, et al. Time is only motion measured on an artificial construction we call a 'clock' - it has no intrinsic measurement beyond that. Things move. How fast does God move? Well how can we possibly know that? If God is assumed to be omnipresent then time is part of space, inherently and implicitly.

Third, God apparently knows the mind of man - all of men, for that matter. If free will is allowed then the choices of all mankind appear as a unified field of activity. Just as a gambler can look at all the numbers and odds and make a fair guess (some better than others), it follows that being who has all of man's choices and motives available for perusal can know better than any single mind.


So how can we have free will and yet He knows beforehand what we shall so ? No, I declare all that a cop out ! God as we would have to be limited to that extent. Yes, we are free and He doesn' t interfere with free will[ Hitler had his, denying it to his victims!]. So what! We still would not have free will for some other reason if He could know the future .And see the definitive refutation of the free will argument .

Free will is interfered with by man. Everything you do has come about because of the collective activity of mankind. Typing on a computer is linked to a chain of events stretching back to Prometheus' gift of fire. Choice is merely taking the next step on a path already prepared for your feet. We glimpse our choices through one set of eyes and think the choice was in our will all along - folly. Once a choice is made it cannot be unmade - hence, in retrospect, there is no choice. It happened only one way; and only one course is synonymous to destiny. Choice / Free will is an artifact of human consciousness.

Take care...

[Minnesota]

Griggsy,

What makes you think God knows the future? I mean He obviously knows somethings about the future, as we all do (what time the sun will rise). Since God can do more things that we can He can know more things than we can (e.g. He knew that Sodom and Gomorrah were going to be destroyed since He was going to destroy them). However God does not know everything that is going to happen. He clearly did not know the talking snake was going to convince Adam and Eve to eath the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He did not know mankind would be corrupted by inter-marriage with the heavenly Watchers. He did not know that the Israelites would abandon Moses while Moses was up on the hill talking with God. The Bible seems to make clear that God does not know everything that is going to happen.


Then you obviously don't believe god is omniscient, at least in the sense that he knows--in the very absolute sense of the word-- what will happen. Next year is as much a mystery to him as is the collective intelligence of the world.

[Griggsy]

If God can have free will and not want to do wrong, why are we not that way in his image without special pleading?

[shunyadragon]

If God can have free will and not want to do wrong, why are we not that way in his image without special pleading?

No special pleading necessary. Free Will is an attribute of the nature of intelligent life in our universe. Doing right and wrong is more often than not are human judgements, and not nexessarily based on arbitrary judgements of a creator. Sincerity is more likely a greater virtue than the human falliability of doing right and wrong.

God is not a chess player with the white pieces.
God is the sea and we are the fishes.

[Griggsy]

[I] Shunadragon , how does that solve the the question ? No special pleading but no answer .

[shunyadragon]

[i] Shunadragon , how does that solve the the question ? No special pleading but no answer .

State the question clearly, and I will do my best to answer it. Nonetheless from the Baha'i worldview freewill is an attribute of human existence, and the concept of salvation and judgement is not weighted on the failure of human falliablity to make good and bad decisions. Human existence is like a spiritual river in which we are both individuals and a collective human identity.

God is not a chess player with the white pieces.
God is the river and we are the fishes.

[Griggsy]

Shunyadragon, thanks.I would,for the sake of argument,state that God would have to be limited due to HIs not being able to free us of exorbitant evil and otherwise He is limited.Then again.contrary to Richard Swinburne, I can see Him as they, the gods as that is not contrary to the razor in the sense that more than one god is not a matter of more assumptions than one god but is in the sense of still requiring ad hoc assumptions.Thanks God is personal.I apprecialte so much the good responses here! No sophistry! Anaturalists and naturalists both, check out St.Louis Skeptics and Freethought forums, where there are sophists who need help!

[joel]

How can God know the future since He is not there already to know it? So how can we have free will and yet He knows beforehand what we shall so ?

As for the first question, my current thinking (held by a large number of theists) is that God is not subject to time, experiencing one moment after another. Rather God made time, just as he made space.

As for the second question, knowledge of a free-will choice does not make it a non-free-will choice. I know that you posted these questions, but it was still free will choice to post them. Neither does the time of the knowledge matter. Even if I were now to travel back in time to the day before you posted these questions, that would not somehow mysteriously negate the free-will aspect of your choice.


However God does not know everything that is going to happen. He clearly did not know the talking snake was going to convince Adam and Eve to eath the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He did not know mankind would be corrupted by inter-marriage with the heavenly Watchers. He did not know that the Israelites would abandon Moses while Moses was up on the hill talking with God. The Bible seems to make clear that God does not know everything that is going to happen.

The Bible says none of those things. How did you come to those conclusions?


If God can have free will and not want to do wrong, why are we not that way in his image without special pleading?

That is a deep question, and it would take a while to explain all of my thinking on it. But I'll try to give you the short version. And I'm not sure what you mean by "without special pleading", so you'll have to correct me if I'm guilty of it.

The short version is that there are essential differences between God and us. God, as the necessary being, is the basis for objective morality. It would be logically contradictory for God to choose to do wrong. It appears to me that, within Christianity, God has deemed it a good thing to give all other (contintgient) beings, with free will, the ability to choose not to align themselves with God. The promise of Christianity is one day, by the grace of God, attaining that state of perfect desire to align with God (the source of all that is good and beautiful) that you mention.

It seems that the tricky answer to your question is that there may be two routes to that state. (1) It might be possible for a being to be created in that state
(2) A being can be in a state of having the ability to choose, and then choose that higher state.

My reasoning is that even though (1) and (2) at first might seem equal, (1) is actually inferior. Obtaining that glorified state after choosing it is a greater good than having it thrust upon you. Some also argue that although (1) is logically possible, it is not actually achievable.

The even shorter answer is that all of God's choices are the best possible means to bring about the greatest possible good. And permitting some created beings to commit evil is apparently necessary in the processes of bringing about the greatest possible good.

[shunyadragon]

As for the first question, my current thinking (held by a large number of theists) is that God is not subject to time, experiencing one moment after another. Rather God made time, just as he made space.

What Biblical basis can you cite that would support that God was outside time. As far as I know, In the Bible God acted within a time and space frame to create and manage God's creation.


The Bible says none of those things. How did you come to those conclusions?

The story of God's choice of Saul as King, and apparently showing remorse or regret at Saul's failure clearly indicates that God did not know Saul would fail.

I beieve that God's response to th Failure of Adam of Eve, leaves two choices: (1) God knew Adam and Eve were set up to fail and be severly punished, in other words they had no choice in the matter, or (2) God did not know whether Adam and Eve would fail or not and succomb to temptation.

[joel]

What Biblical basis can you cite that would support that God was outside time. As far as I know, In the Bible God acted within a time and space frame to create and manage God's creation.

I'm not totally sure. I will have to get back to you on that one, but I believe the rationale is something along these lines:

1) God exists eternally (had no beginning)
2) Time had a beginning
-----------------------------------
3) Therefore God is outside of time




The story of God's choice of Saul as King, and apparently showing remorse or regret at Saul's failure clearly indicates that God did not know Saul would fail.


It is possible to grieve and feel sorry over something, even if you know that it is going to happen. Even if you cause it to happen.



I beieve that God's response to th Failure of Adam of Eve, leaves two choices: (1) God knew Adam and Eve were set up to fail and be severly punished, in other words they had no choice in the matter, or (2) God did not know whether Adam and Eve would fail or not and succomb to temptation.

Third choice: God knew Adam and Eve would disobey (out of their own free will), and that they would have to be punished. But they did have a choice in the matter. They could have not disobeyed.

[shunyadragon]

I'm not totally sure. I will have to get back to you on that one, but I believe the rationale is something along these lines:

1) God exists eternally (had no beginning)
2) Time had a beginning
-----------------------------------
3) Therefore God is outside of time

Problem with 2#. What evidence do you have that time has a beginning? Time does not necessarilly begin with the beginning of our universe. Current knowledge of physics and cosmology indicates time did not begin with the beginning of the universe.


It is possible to grieve and feel sorry over something, even if you know that it is going to happen. Even if you cause it to happen.

That would not be how the story is portrayed. The story is clearly written in the OT as God expecting Saul to be a successful ruler. Anyway, feeling sorry, or regretting a decision is not the type of response on gives for knowing the outcome. This tyoe of response just does not work regardless. It gets you coming and going.


Third choice: God knew Adam and Eve would disobey (out of their own free will), and that they would have to be punished. But they did have a choice in the matter. They could have not disobeyed.

Just variation of the choice one. Adam and Eve are set up, because they are fallible humans and the temptation and very smooth conartist was allowed to always be there. Adam and Eve did not have a chance. Still God had complete foreknowledge of the circumstances God created, which God than bears complete responsibility. Adam and Eve end up as scape goats.

[joel]

Problem with 2#. What evidence do you have that time has a beginning? Time does not necessarilly begin with the beginning of our universe. Current knowledge of physics and cosmology indicates time did not begin with the beginning of the universe.

Time has to have had a beginning. Otherwise there must be an infinite amount of time before now. I.e., now would never have arrived.



That would not be how the story is portrayed. The story is clearly written in the OT as God expecting Saul to be a successful ruler. Anyway, feeling sorry, or regretting a decision is not the type of response on gives for knowing the outcome. This tyoe of response just does not work regardless. It gets you coming and going.

From what I understand, the Hebrew word can be translated as merely "grieve." You can wish that someone will be successful, even though you know they will not be out of their free-will choices.



Just variation of the choice one. Adam and Eve are set up, because they are fallible humans and the temptation and very smooth conartist was allowed to always be there. Adam and Eve did not have a chance. Still God had complete foreknowledge of the circumstances God created, which God than bears complete responsibility. Adam and Eve end up as scape goats.

It's not the same. In no way does foreknowledge imply lack of free will. Adam and Eve did have a choice. They were completely responsible for their own choices.

[shunyadragon]

Time has to have had a beginning. Otherwise there must be an infinite amount of time before now. I.e., now would never have arrived.

You will have to explain this further, Why does time have to have a beginning. Outside of outdated Aristotilian/Thomasan arguments, ie Kalam's false argument, there is no reason why time is not infinite in the past, as is the multidimensional space. Your assumption that we would never have arrived is only an assumption, and does not have any basis in evidence. The universe likely has a beginning, which is one of the reasons we are here.


From what I understand, the Hebrew word can be translated as merely "grieve." You can wish that someone will be successful, even though you know they will not be out of their free-will choices.

I do not know of a scholarly Bible that translates this as 'grieve', but than again this would not change the story much.

Yes, you and me can wish someone to be successful, but this is a very human view of reality where we do not know if they will be successful or not. We are talking about God here, and there is a very real contradiction here concerning the nature of omnipotence and omniesence of a Divine being. The God depicted here is a very human God that may, wish, regret, grieve? for something God knew already was going to take place. Why would God chose Saul if he had foreknowledge of his failure, and was going to grieve, regret, or express remorse for the consequences of God's decision?


It's not the same. In no way does foreknowledge imply lack of free will. Adam and Eve did have a choice. They were completely responsible for their own choices.

Adam and Eve did not have foreknowledge. Yes, they did have free will, but being fallible placed in the Garden with the tree of knowledge with Satan, which God would have had to allow Satan to be there, and knowing the outcome places the full responsibilty for what happened with God, not Adam and Eve.

[joel]

Kalam's false argument

You're going to have to educate me here. I haven't heard of this. What is Kalam's false argument, and why is it false.




Yes, you and me can wish someone to be successful, but this is a very human view of reality where we do not know if they will be successful or not.


Not true. Even if I know someone is going to do something bad (and they have yet to do it), I can grieve over their decision, regret that they are going to make that decision, etc. I will also likely have the same feelings afterwards.



We are talking about God here, and there is a very real contradiction here concerning the nature of omnipotence and omniesence of a Divine being. The God depicted here is a very human God that may, wish, regret, grieve?


We can only talk about god analogously. The best illustration of God's assesment/reaction to the facts of Saul's choices is that of "regret". I might add that it is a very human perspective to attribute to God that he does not know the future.



Adam and Eve did not have foreknowledge. Yes, they did have free will, but being fallible placed in the Garden with the tree of knowledge with Satan, which God would have had to allow Satan to be there, and knowing the outcome places the full responsibilty for what happened with God, not Adam and Eve.

But He did not desire that they would disobey him. He desired that they would. And commanded them. Just because God knew that a human is going to make a bad choice, why would that limit God's freedom to do good? You've already agreed that it does not negate their free will. This implies their responsibility.

[shunyadragon]

You're going to have to educate me here. I haven't heard of this. What is Kalam's false argument, and why is it false.

The Kalam argument is based on an old Aristotilian philosophy, and a limited ancient view of infinity. The later Thomasan Christian arguments for God's existence follows the same old model, and many if not most modern arguments for God follow these ancient thinking. The problem is that philosophy, math and science have come aong way since Aristotle.

For example the popular analogy of the infinite full hotel or library can be countered by the simple analogy of beginning with the more logical empty hotel or library shelves. Now try and fill them.


Not true. Even if I know someone is going to do something bad (and they have yet to do it), I can grieve over their decision, regret that they are going to make that decision, etc. I will also likely have the same feelings afterwards.

We can only talk about god analogously. The best illustration of God's assesment/reaction to the facts of Saul's choices is that of "regret". I might add that it is a very human perspective to attribute to God that he does not know the future.


The dictionary and history is against you. The words used, like remorse and regret clearly reflect 'expectations' of the hope for one outcome and that choices were in 'error'. when the misfortune or error were found out or expectations yielded failure.

The words 'regret and remorse' only fit the meanings where one does not know the future regardless of whether 'a very human perspective to attribute to God that he does not know the future or the very human perspective that God does know the future..


But He did not desire that they would disobey him. He desired that they would. And commanded them. Just because God knew that a human is going to make a bad choice, why would that limit God's freedom to do good? You've already agreed that it does not negate their free will. This implies their responsibility.

If God omnipotent and omniesent, than nothing happens that God does not want to happen, and that makes God responsible for the outcome of everything including the outcome in the garden of Eden.

[joel]

The Kalam argument is based on an old Aristotilian philosophy, and a limited ancient view of infinity. The later Thomasan Christian arguments for God's existence follows the same old model, and many if not most modern arguments for God follow these ancient thinking. The problem is that philosophy, math and science have come aong way since Aristotle.

For example the popular analogy of the infinite full hotel or library can be countered by the simple analogy of beginning with the more logical empty hotel or library shelves. Now try and fill them.


I'm still not following you.



If God omnipotent and omniesent, than nothing happens that God does not want to happen, and that makes God responsible for the outcome of everything including the outcome in the garden of Eden.

Only if you assume that God has not granted anyone free will.

[shunyadragon]

Shunyadragon, thanks.I would,for the sake of argument,state that God would have to be limited due to HIs not being able to free us of exorbitant evil and otherwise He is limited.Then again.contrary to Richard Swinburne, I can see Him as they, the gods as that is not contrary to the razor in the sense that more than one god is not a matter of more assumptions than one god but is in the sense of still requiring ad hoc assumptions.Thanks God is personal.I apprecialte so much the good responses here! No sophistry! Anaturalists and naturalists both, check out St.Louis Skeptics and Freethought forums, where there are sophists who need help!

One of the problems is your arguing against a Judeo-Christian perspective where evi is an issue, but from the Baha'i perspective there is not a dichotomy of good and evil in conflict where exorbitant evil would limit God. The nature of existence is the primary witness that refelcts the nature of God, and there is not any evidence of good and evil in nature outside the vane imaginings of human fears and expectations, based on an ancient worldview. Reread my previous post and you may get a more clearer picture of the Baha'i view.

[Griggsy]

We have determined volition, not free will.