In defense of Hitler

[Patroclus]

If Eva Braun loved him he couldn't have been all bad, could he?

But wait, does it hurt my credibility to defend somebody whom so many people dislike? Oh well, maybe history will bear him out.

:pat:

[Xavier]

History is not doing a few good job to this point.

[Darth Executor]

There's something left of your credibility to hurt? :teeth:

[Storico]

I hear "Springtime for Hitler" was a hit.

[Patroclus]

I love that musical

:pat:

[Frogwarrior]

In Soviet Russia, how would Hitler like to be killed by you?

[Storico]

I love that musical

:pat:

:hehe: me too. Especially the most recent one with Nathan Lane. Genius.

[Sevivon1913]

Eva Braun was mentally insane; as was Hitler. I don't think we can "blame" them for anything.

[Meh_Gerbil]

Eva Braun was mentally insane; as was Hitler. I don't think we can "blame" them for anything.

Why do you think him insane?

[SteveF]

I hear he built a pretty good motorway network. If you gloss over the filling of 6 million jews, then thats a pretty fine record for him to brag about!

[SteveF]

Thats supposed to be killing not filling. No idea how to edit.

Meh.

[Darth Executor]

He also helped Germany recover from a depression and gain enough power to challenge the rest of the world. Too bad he was a racist, genocidal maniac, an incompetent military leader and suffered from Germany's legendary curse (they pick useless losers as their allies, and yes, I'm looking at you, Italy).

[Darth Executor]

Thats supposed to be killing not filling. No idea how to edit.

Meh.

Click on the gray space next to your name.

[SpinyNorman]

Eva Braun was mentally insane; as was Hitler. I don't think we can "blame" them for anything.


So, if Hitler had stood at Numemburg, you would have not help him accountable because he was "insane"?

[Crow]

He liked dogs, and dogs are good judges of character.

[Meh_Gerbil]

You'll note that there isn't a single homocidal maniac that has a gerbil as a pet.

[Rahab]

Eva Braun was mentally insane; as was Hitler. I don't think we can "blame" them for anything. Moreso he seemed to suffer of a dissocial personality disorder. The more severe forms being sociopathy and psychopathy.

There is not much literature surrounding Eva's life and relationship with Hitler. She was rather sheltered from the public eye.None of the biographies I had read on Hitler mentionned Eva as "mentaly insane". Possibly depressed when she atttempted suicide, an event which regained her the attention and affection of Hitler. (after his affair with Renate Muller, an actress).

There is a series of poems he composed addressed to her. I do not have time now but you might be able to dig them out from here:

http://libweb.princeton.edu/libraries/firestone/rbsc/aids/hitler.html

It is an interesting question Pat raised. The answer to Eva's ability to be so attached to her "Schatz" may be that she was fascinated by his personality and rather void of political discernment. He had the reputation to be a "gentleman" with women.Charming in his manners. Yet "boyish" and definitly attractive to the type of women who likes to "nurture" her mate like a mother would. One biography mentionned Eva's excitment to Hitler's moments of "being a little kid" when he would close the doors of his exclusive bedroom (they had separate bedrooms) to play for hours with his toy trains.

[Storico]

Hitler was a heck of a complicated man. By all accounts, he WAS very polite to "Arian" women, liked animals a lot (and owned a few), was VERY patient with "Arian" children (and was known to play Santa Claus), and by accounts we have from neighbors and family friends, he was a most likeable man. The kind that would NEVER hurt anyone. You know, the typical story about the kind, courteous next door neighbor who reportedly ventured out for groceries when someone was ill, even. :ahem: Now, where have we heard this before?

Ah, yes. Show after show, story after story, "maniac goes on killing spree".

And you'll always usually find SOMEONE who'll say "but they were so NICE!"

Hitler might have had personality issues, but he was fully capable of making choices and making sure they were followed through on. He had a complex system of allegiance and loyalty, and he had more droidish sock puppets than this forum'll ever see. :tongue:

Sociopath describes him just fine. "As harmless as a fruitcake" doesn't.

[Patroclus]

From this we learn: beware of nice men.

:pat:

[Storico]

From this we learn: beware of nice men.

:pat:

I hear he secretly owned a gerbil.

If it's true, it explains the theory at least SOMEWHAT...

[Sevivon1913]

Why do you think him insane?

"Insane" may be too broad a brush. I'm not attributing his ideology to insanity, either. He exhibited symptons of seclusion, antisocial behaviour, manic depression; he had bizarre sexual habits (involving women, including his neice, and excriment/urine) and he is known to have complained to his doctor about having orgasms during his public speeches. Now; I don't think insanity would explain this symtpoms. But, I would say that Hitler suffered from a kind of "insanity" because of his addiction to various drugs that, while relieving his addiction to them, certainly caused strange behaviour (megalomania). Hitler also suffered from brain degeneration not so long after coming to power; one sympton from which was parkinson's disease (characterized by his shaking left hand).


He also helped Germany recover from a depression and gain enough power to challenge the rest of the world. Too bad he was a racist, genocidal maniac, an incompetent military leader and suffered from Germany's legendary curse (they pick useless losers as their allies, and yes, I'm looking at you, Italy).

Just my view, but.....

Germany was already slowly recovering from the depression before Hitler came to power, thanks to the achievements of Bruning (he ended reperations and brought normality to the economy). After you've removed all the negative elements of the Third Reich, you're not left with anything. He didn't end unemployment; he simply threw them into the army and started a war; and the rest of unemployment was solved by replacing the jobs of disenfranchised Jews.

On the other hand, Mussolini was a very good leader. It's just a shame he allied himself with a degenerate like Hitler (a man who was so mentally unstable, during the war, that he allied the Soviet invasion to happen despite knowing it in advance; who allowed the allies to invade Northern France unchallenged; etc etc etc). Mussolini solved Italy's economic problems through the greatest idea I think anyone has had in the last 60 years for unemployment: he stopped women being allowed to work and had them stay at home in the kitchen. Brilliant! Also, his economic policy of making Italy independent in terms of resources was a masterpeice. And, to his credit, Mussolini was intelligent enough to know, in 1939, that a war would be lost if it was started before they had fully prepared (which they hadn't).

Was Hitler even a racist? He had a Jewish doctor, and EVERYONE knew Reinhard Heydrich was part-Jewish. I think these inconsistencies show he was derranged.


So, if Hitler had stood at Numemburg, you would have not held him accountable because he was "insane"?

Correct - I would have had him exiled to St Helena (or maybe a nice tropical place, like Israel? :lmbo: ). I think the real monsters were the bureaocrats who met at Wansee; such cold calculation. BTW, there's no direct evidence that Hitler ordered genocide; infact, he didn't seem to involve himself in anything much, choosing to stay at his Bavarian house.


You'll note that there isn't a single homocidal maniac that has a gerbil as a pet.

I hear he had a pet trout. :trout:

[Gabby]

Hitler was a drug addict.

[Rahab]

I hear he secretly owned a gerbil.

If it's true, it explains the theory at least SOMEWHAT... I heard from Pauline Kohler who wrote "I was Hitler's maid" that he delighted at lunch time in eating fish. Trout was his favorite...no mention of his owning a rat...I mean... a gerbil.:teeth:

[Rahab]

He liked dogs, and dogs are good judges of character. But those doggies might have been a bit bias.... German shepherds. You do not see him petting a French Poodle or an American Bulldog, do you ? AH!

[kawaika]

He liked dogs, and dogs are good judges of character.

lol, your post reminds me of some propaganda cards I saw for sale in Poland. There was this one card with Hitler feeding a deer and the caption said: "Hitler ist auch ein tier freund." "Hitler is also a friend of animals." I should have picked up that card, sigh...

[Dee Dee Warren]

Click on the gray space next to your name.

:rofl:

I don't think so

[Darth Executor]

:rofl:

I don't think so

It was accurate when I posted it.

[NeilUnreal]

We had a discussion at work a while back about what Mel Brooks was trying to accomplish with the “Springtime for Hitler” idea in The Producers. (Aside from merely trying to create an unlikely hit musical.)

On the surface, it seems rather tasteless and even macabre. A Jewish filmmaker making a film about two Jewish men producing a play extolling Hitler as – not a monster – but on the contrary, an ordinary and even loveable guy.

But when you think about, it makes sense. Hitler was not a monster at least in the sense of being the kind of supernatural demi-demon he appears to be in the projection of history. On the contrary, he was just a man; a man who let himself be taken over by hatred and so became a monster.

So “Springtime for Hitler” is a cautionary tale. A caution against the view of history that there are born monsters, and a reminder that it is ordinary people who become monsters when they choose to follow evil rather than good. Likewise, the surviving films of the real Hitler’s ordinariness, even affability, are in many ways more frightening than the records of his atrocities. The atrocities remind us of the monster that was, and so we should never forget them. However, the ordinariness reminds us of the monsters that are always lurking there, and that we must always guard against. And that is something at least as important to remember.

-Neil

[Telleriab2]

But those doggies might have been a bit bias.... German shepherds. You do not see him petting a French Poodle or an American Bulldog, do you ? AH!

He did once own a Jack Russell terrier.

[Rahab]

He did once own a Jack Russell terrier. Oui... allegedly kidnapped in 1917 by a French man. His disappearance seems a bit suspicious since despite of Hitler's love for Blondi, it was recorded in one of the biographies I read that he tested the efficiency of cyanide on Blondi and one of her pups before ingesting it himself. Both bodies of the dogs were found in the Bunker.

[Telleriab2]

Oui... allegedly kidnapped in 1917 by a French man. His disappearance seems a bit suspicious since despite of Hitler's love for Blondi, it was recorded in one of the biographies I read that he tested the efficiency of cyanide on Blondi and one of her pups before ingesting it himself. Both bodies of the dogs were found in the Bunker.

What a way to go.

[Rahab]

We had a discussion at work a while back about what Mel Brooks was trying to accomplish with the “Springtime for Hitler” idea in The Producers. (Aside from merely trying to create an unlikely hit musical.)

On the surface, it seems rather tasteless and even macabre. A Jewish filmmaker making a film about two Jewish men producing a play extolling Hitler as – not a monster – but on the contrary, an ordinary and even loveable guy.

But when you think about, it makes sense. Hitler was not a monster at least in the sense of being the kind of supernatural demi-demon he appears to be in the projection of history. On the contrary, he was just a man; a man who let himself be taken over by hatred and so became a monster.

So “Springtime for Hitler” is a cautionary tale. A caution against the view of history that there are born monsters, and a reminder that it is ordinary people who become monsters when they choose to follow evil rather than good. Likewise, the surviving films of the real Hitler’s ordinariness, even affability, are in many ways more frightening than the records of his atrocities. The atrocities remind us of the monster that was, and so we should never forget them. However, the ordinariness reminds us of the monsters that are always lurking there, and that we must always guard against. And that is something at least as important to remember.

-Neil
Excellent post (as usual) Neil! A couple of observations though : when it comes to dissocial personality disorders, the "monster" aspect is not a conscious choice of evil over good. There is a natural dissociation and emotional detachment from human sufferings. An inability to relate to them. Thus actions and decisions which obliterate completely the consequences leading to causing suffering. It is as if there is an absence of conscience.

In the majority of sociopaths, you find the same "uncanny" blend of affability and ordinariness with the capacity to produce horrific and cruel thoughts and the endeavor to put them into action. If and when the opportunity presents itself , the "monster" aspect becomes revealed to society. Which IMO was the case for Hitler.

By definition, they tend to evolve in environments where there is the opportunity to gain powerful social positions and exercise control. Politics being a fertile ground for such opportunities. I suspect religion has harbored a few sociopaths. (manipulation, cohersion and control of specific masses). ( Jim Jones comes to mind).

[Rahab]

What a way to go. Indeed. And if the anecdote is accurate, it furthers the notion that Hitler's mental world revolved around the desire to posess and own and control other creatures. Yet providing them with some degree of affection and nurturing as he did with Blondi. Very bizarre and frightening. I suspect poor Eva Braun was submitted to emotional and mental abuse while being enticed by his affectionate and protective attitudes towards her.

There is also the trend to will to destroy what he could not own and control. His insane project to burn Paris to ashes for example when he delighted in and admired the architecture and the monuments of the "city of lights". Yet he could only own Paris by force. Its beauty and glory were never the product of his long lost dream to be an architect. He knew he never took part in it and never could reach the level of creativity and art necessary to build Paris and its fantastic history. He could only live in its shadow.


He gave himself a death he considered to be dramatic and grandiose. Remaining inaccessible to our comprehension of whom he was. Somewhere in his mind, perharps, he thought he would be reborn from his ashes. Thus ordering for his remains to be burnt.

I was fascinated some 30 years ago by the research I had to do while writing a report in German History I had entitled "The Wolf". (his nickname). There is so much material to explore yet only assumptions that can be made as to his entire persona.

[Telleriab2]

Indeed. And if the anecdote is accurate, it furthers the notion that Hitler's mental world revolved around the desire to posess and own and control other creatures. Yet providing them with some degree of affection and nurturing as he did with Blondi. Very bizarre and frightening. I suspect poor Eva Braun was submitted to emotional and mental abuse while being enticed by his affectionate and protective attitudes towards her.

There is also the trend to will to destroy what he could not own and control. His insane project to burn Paris to ashes for example when he delighted in and admired the architecture and the monuments of the "city of lights". Yet he could only own Paris by force. Its beauty and glory were never the product of his long lost dream to be an architect. He knew he never took part in it and never could reach the level of creativity and art necessary to build Paris and its fantastic history. He could only live in its shadow.


He gave himself a death he considered to be dramatic and grandiose. Remaining inaccessible to our comprehension of whom he was. Somewhere in his mind, perharps, he thought he would be reborn from his ashes. Thus ordering for his remains to be burnt.

I was fascinated some 30 years ago by the research I had to do while writing a report in German History I had entitled "The Wolf". (his nickname). There is so much material to explore yet only assumptions that can be made as to his entire persona.

I can only wonder what my Dad learned from his readings.

Dad was very much into history, specifically European involvement in WWII; he practically had his own library in which his volumes all spoke about Hitler Germany and its allies. I knew that Dad wanted to eventually write his own book on the matter as well.

Back in post-Castro Cuba, as an adolescent, he had extraordinarily encountered a very beat-up copy of Mein Kamph in Spanish (he had found the book abandoned atop of a public telephone). That was the book, he said, that sparked his curiousity for WWII.

[Storico]

I can only wonder what my Dad learned from his readings.

Dad was very much into history, specifically European involvement in WWII; he practically had his own library in which his volumes all spoke about Hitler Germany and its allies. I knew that Dad wanted to eventually write his own book on the matter as well.

Back in post-Castro Cuba, as an adolescent, he had extraordinarily encountered a very beat-up copy of Mein Kamph in Spanish (he had found the book abandoned atop of a public telephone). That was the book, he said, that sparked his curiousity for WWII.

I don't doubt at all that it sparked his curiousity. If only Allied leaders had read it and paid serious attention to it, they would have found that Hitler spelled out exactly what he'd do, if given the chance.

(And yes, for the record, Hitler did test the poison on his own dog. If you think that's weird, consider what Goebbels did to himself and his family.)

[Ben Franklin]

He never cheated on his wife...! :thumb:

[Storico]

He never cheated on his wife...! :thumb:

He went one day without screwing up his very temporary wedded bliss?

Well.

Props to the old boy.

:hehe:

[Cyrus Johnson]

I hear he built a pretty good motorway network. If you gloss over the filling of 6 million jews, then thats a pretty fine record for him to brag about!

And the Volkswagon Beetle. People love that little car. No production models were made in Hitler's lifetime, but he was the driving force behind it (pun intended).

And he was a non-smoker. That's gotta count for something.

[Storico]

And the Volkswagon Beetle. People love that little car. No production models were made in Hitler's lifetime, but he was the driving force behind it (pun intended).

And he was a non-smoker. That's gotta count for something.

Yeah, a nonsmoker. And because he'd been through WWI, he found the use of poison gas on citizens to be unethical.

Oh wait...

Chambers, you say?

:ahem:

[Cyrus Johnson]

Yeah, a nonsmoker. And because he'd been through WWI, he found the use of poison gas on citizens to be unethical.

Oh wait...

Chambers, you say?

:ahem:

Irrelevant non sequitur Your Honour! :bonk:

[Storico]

Irrelevant non sequitur Your Honour! :bonk:

Hey! ORDER! ORDER IN THE COURT!

"Ham and cheese on rye, your honour!"

[Jerubbaal]

Hitler was a heck of a complicated man. By all accounts, he WAS very polite to "Arian" women, liked animals a lot (and owned a few), was VERY patient with "Arian" children (and was known to play Santa Claus), and by accounts we have from neighbors and family friends, he was a most likeable man. The kind that would NEVER hurt anyone. You know, the typical story about the kind, courteous next door neighbor who reportedly ventured out for groceries when someone was ill, even. :ahem: Now, where have we heard this before?\.

Now what's wrong with arianism, the belief that God the Father, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct entities and that Christ is subordinate to the Father? Apart from being a heresy in mainstream Christianity, that is.

You mean "aryan", if I'm not mistaken.

[Nicholas]

And the Volkswagon Beetle. People love that little car. No production models were made in Hitler's lifetime, but he was the driving force behind it (pun intended).

And he was a non-smoker. That's gotta count for something.

And he was a vegetarian celibate and anti-abortion (well, when it came to some people anyway).

[flipper]

You'll note that there isn't a single homocidal maniac that has a gerbil as a pet.

Alas, you are wrong. Stalin owned a Russian Dwarf Gerbil called пузырь ("Bubbles"), which he kept in a small ivory box, claiming that Bubbles had the ability to sniff out Mecheviks and traitors of all types.

[freethinker]

Some soundbites.

Adolf once said "If I travel on a dusty road in my car and I see a cyclist I slow down so that dust is not blown into the cyclist's eyes."
(Obviously this would be a non-Jewish cyclist.)

"Hitler is the greatest genius of the 20th century."
- Mahatma Ghandi 1940

"Terror will always be successful unless opposed by equal terror."
- Adolf Hilter

[flipper]

mecheviks? Mencheviks. Bleagh.

[FreezBee]

mecheviks? Mencheviks. Bleagh.

But in a small ivory box. Why?

- FreezBee