Best non-Christian Christian work?

[Smokering]

A lot of people in the Christian community have found great spiritual comfort, enlightenment etc. in works such as Lewis' Screwtape Letters or, more arcanely, Walter Wangerin Jr's The Book of Sorrows. Works such as these were written by Christians, and as such we obviously expect to find Christian truths within them. My question is, what about the non-Christian writers? One of the most spiritually meaningful books I've read is Victor Hugo's Les Miserables. The whole book can practically be read as a dissertation on the nature of saving faith. Jean Valjean is the sinner saved by faith; Javert, his counterpoint, is the 'righteous man' damned by his reliance on works. Les Mis also contains one of my favourite quotations on love: 'God is behind everything, but everything hides God. Things are black; creatures are opaque. To love another being is to render that being transparent'.

Yet this book was written by the atheist, promiscuous, libertine Victor Hugo. I don't expect to see him in heaven; but if books are in heaven, I would be surprised not to find Les Mis.

What about you? Which non-Christian works of fiction best display Christian themes to you, and why? Should one write Hugo's theological themes off as a product of the times, or call it God working through him to produce a work for His own glory? I'd prefer specifically Christian themes--something a bit more substantial than 'true love' or 'friends are important', although if you can make a good case, go for it. :tongue:

As a side note, I remember my dear friend Tamara emailing me excitedly after watching the first few episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. She was delighted that the show had a 'guardian Angel', and begged me to tell her that Joss Whedon (the show's creator) was a Christian--surely, he must be! I stopped giggling long enough to regretfully burst her bubble--he's very much an atheist, and anyone who's watched Buffy for any length of time realises that Angel isn't exactly eponymous.

Come to think of it, this same friend also found Star Wars extremely 'Christian'. I love Star Wars as well as the next geek, but I can't say I agreed with her assessment... still, if it brought her closer to God, why not? :sigh:

Thoughts, anyone?

[Amazing Rando]

I really like Stephen King's The Stand for some powerfully Christian good vs. evil themes as well as King's The Green Mile for it's larger than life Christ-figure John Coffey.

[Xavier]

I really like Stephen King's The Stand for some powerfully Christian good vs. evil themes as well as King's The Green Mile for it's larger than life Christ-figure John Coffey.
King may be a Christian... or may not.

Here's a quote:
"I don't see myself as God's stenographer. As someone who believes in God, believes that God is a logical out growth of the fact that life fits together as well as it does, but that doesn't mean that we know God's mind... There's been a lot of criticism of the book where they say the God stuff really turns them off. I'm thinking to myself that these guys have no problems with vampires, demons, golems, werewolves and you name it. If you try to bring in a God who can take sardines and crackers and turn it into loaves and fishes, then these people have a problem. I say to myself, if you have a real problem then I'm doing what a novel of suspense and horror is supposed to do, which is to just scratch below the surface and sought of rub your nerves the wrong way."

SOURCE: http://www.adherents.com/people/pk/Stephen_King.html

[Amazing Rando]

King may be a Christian... or may not.

Here's a quote:
"I don't see myself as God's stenographer. As someone who believes in God, believes that God is a logical out growth of the fact that life fits together as well as it does, but that doesn't mean that we know God's mind... There's been a lot of criticism of the book where they say the God stuff really turns them off. I'm thinking to myself that these guys have no problems with vampires, demons, golems, werewolves and you name it. If you try to bring in a God who can take sardines and crackers and turn it into loaves and fishes, then these people have a problem. I say to myself, if you have a real problem then I'm doing what a novel of suspense and horror is supposed to do, which is to just scratch below the surface and sought of rub your nerves the wrong way."

SOURCE: http://www.adherents.com/people/pk/Stephen_King.html

Wow, thanks dude! Cool quote! When I was in college I devoured everything by King I could get my hands on. Surprisingly, it was his more overtly "religious" novels that held my attention the most. :yes: Insomnia, Desperation, The Stand, The Green Mile, to name a few.

[Xavier]

He grew up "nominally" Methodist.

[Amazing Rando]

God's got a way of not letting go of some folks whose Christian upbringing was "nominal" at best. :yes:

[Smokering]

I'd forgotten about The Green Mile! Love it, though. At Uni I covered my English exercise books with quotes, and the ending of The Green Mile was one of them. I still remember it vaguely: 'I lie here and wait. I think about Janice, how I lost her, how she ran away red through my fingers in the rain, and I wait. We each owe a death, there are no exceptions, but sometimes, oh God, the Green Mile is so long...'.

Ish.

Oddly enough I never even considered King as a possible Christian; probably just because he writes horror, which isn't strictly fair. :)

[Storico]

God's got a way of not letting go of some folks whose Christian upbringing was "nominal" at best. :yes:

You just made it into my sig line. I give that one HUGE "AMEN." (Guess you could say I identify!)

By the way, I also like the Green Mile for John Coffey's character.

The book I'd nominate is The Street Lawyer by John Grisham. Grisham's not Christian that I know of, but it remains my favourite novel of his. He has one character in it, in particular, that I love. Mordecai Green. Green's a street lawyer, a passionate advocate for the homeless, and every cold night of the year he stays up with the poor of the city's streets, looking after them and feeding them, and sheltering them in the basement of an old church. During the days, he sees them, tries to legally help with injustices done against them. Although Green serves as a secondary character, WHAT a character he is. I really, really like him. What his character does for a living in the novel is very, very close to a Christian vision of advocacy for those who can't speak for themselves if I ever saw one in a secular novel.

[Xavier]

Grisham is a Baptist.

SOURCE: http://www.nndb.com/people/505/000022439/

[Storico]

Grisham is a Baptist.

SOURCE: http://www.nndb.com/people/505/000022439/

Really. Neat. I didn't know that. :smile: I know The Testament has overtly Christian themes in it. I suppose he's just never really marketed himself as a Christian writer, per se. Not that I'd expect every Christian to market themselves or something, but yeah. I wonder to what degree his own faith does influence his writing. I'd love to talk to him about the character of Mordecai Green from The Street Lawyer. One of my favourite fiction characters I've come across.

[Amazing Rando]

The thing I like about The Green Mile is that I see it as a huge meditation on the human person of Jesus Christ from the point of view of Pilate. I saw Paul Edgcomb (Tom Hanks' character) as a Pilate figure (or at least, that centurion who looked on the crucified Lord and said "truly this man was the Son of God").

[Amazing Rando]

You just made it into my sig line. I give that one HUGE "AMEN." (Guess you could say I identify!)


Thanks for that! I don't often get quoted.

[The Curtmudgeon]

Thanks for that! I don't often get quoted.

Sure you do, Rand', just not where you can catch us at it!

The (sorry, that was a drive-by reply) Curtmudgeon

[tiffanyh]

Do movies count? I thought that "The Polar Express", while on the surface was really about believing in Santa Claus, really spoke about faith and about that "leap of faith" that so many seem to struggle with when considering Christianity. I know many people in my family struggle with that very thing.

Edit: Just looked up the author of the book that the movie is based on, Chris Van Allsburg, I didn't know he also wrote Jumanji and Zathura ... creative fella. http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/features/thepolarexpress/author.shtml

[Cynic Sage]

One of the most spiritually meaningful books I've read is Victor Hugo's Les Miserables. The whole book can practically be read as a dissertation on the nature of saving faith. Jean Valjean is the sinner saved by faith; Javert, his counterpoint, is the 'righteous man' damned by his reliance on works. Les Mis also contains one of my favourite quotations on love: 'God is behind everything, but everything hides God. Things are black; creatures are opaque. To love another being is to render that being transparent'.

Yet this book was written by the atheist, promiscuous, libertine Victor Hugo. I don't expect to see him in heaven; but if books are in heaven, I would be surprised not to find Les Mis.


I thought Victor Hugo was Catholic.

[Storico]

Victor Hugo was Catholic when he was very young, but he stopped attending church services, essentially walked away from it, got interested in spiritualism for a while when he was in exile (due to his criticism of Napoleon), and eventually he considered himself a rationalist and a deist. It seems he never totally gave up on the concept of a higher power of some kind, but for most of his adult life and towards the end of it, he never claimed that higher power was the God Jews and Christians speak of, it seems. For what it's worth, anyways.... Hugo was born in 1802. Les Mis is a great book, but wasn't published until 1862. It certainly has religion as a theme and Hugo was definitely commenting on society as he saw it, but his impetus for writing it wasn't because he was Catholic at the time.

[spiritmech]

Les Mis was a great book. I put it in the top 5 of all time. I can't really think of any other big books for me that aren't Christian.
sm

[NeilUnreal]

Probably my favorite atheist author (in terms of screenplays) is Woody Allen.

I almost always find that I can glean something meaningful from his films. The scene in Broadway Danny Rose, where Danny Rose shares a very humble Thanksgiving meal with his misfit clients (he is a talent agent), is really quite touching. It makes me think of how the early Church is often described: a bunch of outcasts and oddballs; not thrown together, but drawn together.

Crimes and Misdemeanors has a lot to say about the nature of life, and about good, evil, and human choice. It might almost have been written by a Rabbi.

I also like the quote from Stardust Memories (which is presumed to be self-descriptive of Allen):

"To you I'm an atheist, to God, I'm the loyal opposition."

-Neil

p.s. I really liked Les Miserables. There is a story connected with it, that it generated the shortest business correspondence on record. Victor Hugo was concerned about whether the work was a success, so he sent his publisher a note containing only the character: "?" The book was selling so well, the published also replied with a single character: "!"

[Thespia]

I've heard a great man (Dr. John Mark Reynolds) say that Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte is the one of the greatest Christian novels. It is Christian because the virtues of doing one's duty, liberty, honesty, perseverance, kindness, etc...win out over romantic notions.

Unlike Wuthering Heights (by Emily Bronte, Charlotte's sister), unbridled passions do not win out in the end.

I need to research this further...but when I heard that, it sounded good to me!

[Cynic Sage]

I've heard a great man (Dr. John Mark Reynolds) say that Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte is the one of the greatest Christian novels. It is Christian because the virtues of doing one's duty, liberty, honesty, perseverance, kindness, etc...win out over romantic notions.


Those are good values, although they are not distinctly Christian.

[Genesius]

I've noticed that sooo many stories told and re-told have christian themes. This is one of the persuasive evidences for me during my conversion (I hate that word). I really started to notice how almost every story has a hero who must eventually sacrifice something of himself to serve the good of the story. That hero usually goes through some difficult change of character and good stories go much deeper into the struggles one has against oneself and their battle between good and evil. This convinced me that God is using many a medium to tell His story.

[GKC_fan]

Arcady, by Michael Williams. A must-read for fantasy lovers! It was very deservedly nominated for Fantasy Novel of the Year.

(I don't actually know if Prof. Williams is a believer or not, and I can find little on him. But the book is not explicitly or obviously Christian.) Williams, who is a prof of Literature at U of Louisville, and was apparently raised in a Southern family, is very sympathetic to Christian themes.

Arcady is not just a fantasy, but also a mystery, and Southern (family, land, The War, etc...), Gothic literature that also reminds me of Charles Williams' fantasies: i.e., how the supernatural intrudes unexpectedly into normal life.

An excerpt from an interview with Prof. Williams:

"And yet his stories are anything but modest. In his work, Williams tries to establish elaborate environments, a good plot and strong characters, while seeking what author Nathaniel Hawthorne called the "truth of the heart." Williams feels that these qualities are the mark of any good fantasy literature. "The genre explores worlds ... in which the laws of physics and nature are bent," Williams said. "It is often a fantasy writer's task to introduce and immerse a reader in the world being created."

In regard to his trade, Williams said that fantasy "renews and refreshes my apprehension of the here and now. It has at its core a sense of estranging reality so that we see things from new angles and from a new light."

Arcady definitely does that!! Just beware: don't read the cover blurbs, and be careful with reviews: you don't want to have Arcady's great surprises ruined for you!!

A personal note:

For me, Arcady was an answer to prayer. Several years ago, out of the blue, I was really wanting a good new fantasy to enjoy - not having read one in several years, and living in Europe, unable to buy and ship over many English books, and not knowing a good fantasy novel to buy anyway - so I half-jokingly asked God to send me one somehow: "Silly request, probably, but what can it hurt?", I thought.

A couple weeks later, the local American community had their annual yardsale, so we went. I remembered my prayer, but didn't allow my hopes up too high. And for me the yardsale overall was a bust - plus hardly any books at all, and only one booth had any fantasy novels, but Arcady immediately grabbed my attention with its cover art. The woman selling it was honest, she said she had only been able to read a couple of chapters, and couldn't get into it. So I almost put it back, even while one little 'voice' in my mind whispered "You know, this could actually be the fantasy you prayed for" and another 'voice' snickered, "Yeah, right!!! As if!!!".

Well, Arcady was difficult to get into - I had to try about three times. But when I finally did -- I was blown away. I've read it once a year ever since.

[Smokering]

Victor Hugo was Catholic when he was very young, but he stopped attending church services, essentially walked away from it, got interested in spiritualism for a while when he was in exile (due to his criticism of Napoleon), and eventually he considered himself a rationalist and a deist. It seems he never totally gave up on the concept of a higher power of some kind, but for most of his adult life and towards the end of it, he never claimed that higher power was the God Jews and Christians speak of, it seems. For what it's worth, anyways.... Hugo was born in 1802. Les Mis is a great book, but wasn't published until 1862. It certainly has religion as a theme and Hugo was definitely commenting on society as he saw it, but his impetus for writing it wasn't because he was Catholic at the time.

I vaguely remember some atheist polemic in Notre-Dame de Paris as well. I'm not sure when he wrote it, but it's certainly a much bleaker, more cynical work than Les Mis. While I like the book well enough as a story (and it's a cracker ending!), I don't find it nearly as wonderful a work as the other. I wonder if that's because I resonated with the 'Christian' themes of Les Mis, and was subconciously repulsed by the nihilism of Notre-Dame? *shrugs* I do find it amusing that the Disney adaptation of Notre-Dame tries to make it an uplifting moral tale. Not only is it a ludicrously unsuitable book to adapt for kidlings, but they completely miss the point by making Quasimodo an adorable, big-hearted hero. And don't even get me started on the John Smith-ified Pheobus, who marries Esmerelda to presumably live happily ever after. Hugo's original title got it right. It's not about 'the Hunchback of Notre-Dame'; it's about the Cathedral, and the lives which touch it and which it touches.

I do like the musical version fairly well though. The guy who sang Quasimodo on the original Broadway recording had an AMAZING voice. Esmerelda, too.

Okay, 'nuff Hugo rambling. :)

[historic salve]

I agree, Hugo was a good writer, although I didn't know he was non-Christian. I'll have to check that. I never finished Les Mis, but the translation I was reading by Laurence Porter was very readable.

I thought The Crucible by Arthur Miller was so good (mainly because of the ending) that it could have been written by a Christian.