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Lazarus and the rich man – parable or actual event?

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  • Lazarus and the rich man – parable or actual event?

    In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus tells the story of a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus and describes how they lived in this life and what their circumstances were after they died.
    There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.

    The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.”

    But Abraham said, “Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.”

    And he said, “Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house—for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.”

    But Abraham said, “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.” And he said, “No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.”

    He said to him, “If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.”

    This story follows a group of parables and there is much disagreement as to whether this in another parable or a record of something that actually happened.

    To answer this question we need to look at exactly what a parable is. Luke 15:3-7 records a story by Jesus which is clearly identified as a parable.
    So he told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.”

    Let’s look at exactly what Jesus did here. He told a story about a shepherd and a lost sheep. This was something the people were familiar with because they lived in a culture in which being a shepherd was a common occupation. Then he showed how this everyday event which they could see was like a heavenly event which they couldn’t see directly; the rejoicing by the shepherd was like the rejoicing that takes place in heaven when a sinner repents. A parable illustrates a spiritual truth by comparing it with something with which the listeners were familiar.

    But does the story of Lazarus and the rich man follow this pattern? It begins by describing a rich man and a beggar who was at his gate seeking help. This was no doubt the sort of thing his listeners had seen. But Jesus doesn’t make any comparison between this situation and something in heaven. Instead he continues the story by telling how the two men died and what their circumstances were after death. In addition, two of the people in the parable, Lazarus and Abraham, are named, and we know for certain that Abraham was a real person. These departures from the usual pattern of parables show that this wasn’t a parable but an account of something that really happened.

    This story is the plainest description found in the Bible of what happens after death. We know that at death the body completely ceases to function but we find here that the same thing isn’t true of the soul. It is separated from the body but still continues to function in the same way it did while still in the body.

    In the Old Testament there are many references to a place called Sheol which is the place everyone went after death. Both the good and the bad went there. This is the same place as Hades, which is where the rich man ended up. Since he was able to see and speak to Abraham and Lazarus they must have been in Hades too, but in a different part. Abraham said there was a chasm between the place they were and the place the rich man was, so there was a separation between the righteous and the unrighteous even though they were in the same place.

    The unsaved still go to Hades immediately after they die but that is no longer true of the saved. The death of Jesus has brought about a change in what happens to them. Jesus told the thief who repented that he would be in Paradise with him that same day.
    One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!”

    But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”

    And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

    And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
    Luke 23:39-43 ESV

    We learn from 2 Corinthians 12:1-3 that Paradise is in the third heaven.
    I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

    Ephesians 4:8-10 says,
    Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    This shows that between his death and resurrection Jesus descended into Hades and took out all the righteous dead and took them to Paradise. Now whenever a believer dies his soul goes immediately to be with Jesus.

    Even the unsaved won’t stay in Hades forever. Revelation 20 contains a description of the final judgment, when all those who are lost will be punished for eternity by being thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15 says,
    And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
    Leonard Ravenhill

    https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/

  • #2
    Well, it is a parable from what I know of Jewish parables. Jesus rarely made His parables personal by naming anyone in them, but even in this one, the gist is still the same. it's a story used to illustrate a point. But that still does not negate the realities Jesus used to make the point. First off, the wicked do indeed go to a place of torment, and the righteous go to a place of rest. And there is no way for any of us humans to go from one to the other, which completely destroys post-mortem salvation and the righteous visiting the place of the damned. Only Jesus was able to cross from "here to there" to proclaim His victory to those in chains.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      Well, it is a parable from what I know of Jewish parables. Jesus rarely made His parables personal by naming anyone in them, but even in this one, the gist is still the same. it's a story used to illustrate a point. But that still does not negate the realities Jesus used to make the point. First off, the wicked do indeed go to a place of torment, and the righteous go to a place of rest. And there is no way for any of us humans to go from one to the other, which completely destroys post-mortem salvation and the righteous visiting the place of the damned. Only Jesus was able to cross from "here to there" to proclaim His victory to those in chains.
      If Jesus was able to cross, then would He not be able to take others with Him? Jesus spoke the parable, after all before He crossed over Himself. Those who believe in post-mortem salvation, AFAICT, acknowledge that humans cannot cross over of their own will.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #4
        Just some thoughts from when I was teaching on the raising of Lazarus from John's Gospel:

        Was it really a parable? Some say no, because it talks of real people, one of them by name. True, none of the other parables give names. He talks about shepherds and sheep, coins, pearls, sowers, kings and servants, fathers and prodigals, creditors and debtors. But never any names. Why this time?

        Note those last two verses, “ And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Now look at what happened after Jesus raised Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha, from the dead:

        Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him. But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. (John 11:45-53)
        Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus. (John 12:9-11)
        What Jesus said would happen in the parable is exactly what happened in real life! The religious leaders saw the proof with their own eyes, and refused to repent of their sin. Perhaps Jesus at first used this parable on several occasions. Perhaps originally it was the Parable of the Rich Man and the Poor Man. But after the chief priests and the Pharisees got together and plotted to kill both Jesus and Lazarus, perhaps Jesus added the name to the parable as a reminder of the blindness of the Jewish leaders.

        Go back to the passages of the Cleansing of the Temple. John’s Gospel places it on Passover at the beginning of Jesus’s ministry. The other Gospels place it two or three years later. A mistake?

        Not at all. The tables of the money changers and sellers of animals were known as the Tables of Annas, or the Tables of the House of Annas. They were notorious institutions of greed and corruption, theft and confiscation of people’s goods. The only money allowed for paying the annual temple tax was the Tyrian shekel, and the exchange rate for it was outrageous. And many people bringing their sheep to the temple for sacrifice were told the animals were defective, and that another sheep had to be purchased. From these schemes Annas, the former high priest, and his family raked in huge sums of money. And it wasn’t only those two times Jesus upset the tables. They were set up every year three weeks before Passover, possibly since Annas became high priest in AD 6. They could have been there the year Jesus was left alone in the temple, and were probably there for as many as six decades until the Jewish War. Annas and his corrupt family were in power for that long. As long as the high priest Joseph Caiaphas, the son in law of Annas, was in power, as well as five other sons of Annas: Eleazar ben Ananus (AD 16-17), Jonathan ben Ananus (AD 36-37, and again AD 44), Theophilus ben Ananus (AD 37-41), Matthias ben Ananus (AD 43) and Ananus ben Ananus (AD63). Caiaphas had five brothers in law, each of whom took turns at being high priest.

        AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. [Josephus, Antiquities, xx.9.1]
        The rich man lifted his eyes in the pit of hell and saw Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom, and cried out, “I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.”
        Caiaphas, married to the daughter of Annas, had five brothers-in-law. Was he the rich man in the parable?
        Last edited by Faber; 12-11-2015, 06:11 PM.
        When I Survey....

        Comment


        • #5
          Faber, are you trying to equate Lazarus in the parable with Lazarus whom Jesus raised? If so, I don't think that works; from Jesus' interactions with Mary, Martha, and Lazarus, it seems fairly evident that Lazarus was not a penniless beggar. And Caiaphas was alive at the time of Jesus' trial, AFAICT, so how could he be the rich man?

          FWIW, it also seems almost necessary to give the beggar in the parable a name so the rich man can call out to him.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Faber, are you trying to equate Lazarus in the parable with Lazarus whom Jesus raised? If so, I don't think that works; from Jesus' interactions with Mary, Martha, and Lazarus, it seems fairly evident that Lazarus was not a penniless beggar. And Caiaphas was alive at the time of Jesus' trial, AFAICT, so how could he be the rich man?

            FWIW, it also seems almost necessary to give the beggar in the parable a name so the rich man can call out to him.
            My suggestion is that the parable originally didn't have any names, but because the incident involving Lazarus of Bethany paralleled the parable (in that they wouldn't believe somebody who was raised from the dead), that Jesus attached Lazarus's name. Yes, Caiaphas was alive at the time, but a parable is only a story. Jesus might have intended it as a slap in the face.

            I'm not saying dogmatically that this is the case. Only a suggestion.
            When I Survey....

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              If Jesus was able to cross, then would He not be able to take others with Him?
              No. The damned are damned until the final day of judgment. The righteous are with Abraham.

              Jesus spoke the parable, after all before He crossed over Himself.
              He is God, so the rule doesn't apply to Him, since He made hades.

              Those who believe in post-mortem salvation, AFAICT, acknowledge that humans cannot cross over of their own will.
              Crossing over would mean they switch from damned to righteous after their death. I just can't square that with scripture.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                No. The damned are damned until the final day of judgment.
                If so, then there is no reason to have a final day of judgment.
                The righteous are with Abraham.
                Sure.
                He is God, so the rule doesn't apply to Him, since He made hades.
                You're missing my point. As God, He has the ability to take others across the gulf.
                Crossing over would mean they switch from damned to righteous after their death. I just can't square that with scripture.
                Scripturally, I don't see how people are damned before the final judgment.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Faber View Post
                  My suggestion is that the parable originally didn't have any names, but because the incident involving Lazarus of Bethany paralleled the parable (in that they wouldn't believe somebody who was raised from the dead), that Jesus attached Lazarus's name. Yes, Caiaphas was alive at the time, but a parable is only a story. Jesus might have intended it as a slap in the face.

                  I'm not saying dogmatically that this is the case. Only a suggestion.
                  Jesus was quite capable of using parables to slap the religious leaders in the face without adding names (the parable of the wicked vinedressers comes immediately to mind).
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Scripturally, I don't see how people are damned before the final judgment.
                    -
                    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)
                    When I Survey....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Faber View Post
                      Originally posted by OBP
                      Scripturally, I don't see how people are damned before the final judgment.
                      He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)
                      This might make sense in Calvinist world; it requires the assumption that no one can change their minds, ever.

                      ETA: For future reference, please use the verse tags for ease of subsequent quoting.

                      Scripture Verse: John 3:18

                      He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Gotta figure out how to do that verse tag.

                        As far as Calvinist, maybe two-point, if even that. I take strong issue with some of the arguments I have heard from the five-pointers.

                        As far as being able to change one's mind, yes I agree. But it's not that simple. I used to be an adamant atheist, and lost of people tried changing my mind. It was only through the convicting of the Holy Spirit for several months that I finally gave in. I can fully understand the concept that nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws him. Even then, unlike the Calvinist view of irresistible grace, I believe people can still resist the Holy Spirit.

                        Speaking of free will, I wish T-Web would stop changing my misspelled words on me. Just underline them and let me have the free will to choose how to spell my words.
                        When I Survey....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Faber View Post
                          Speaking of free will, I wish T-Web would stop changing my misspelled words on me. Just underline them and let me have the free will to choose how to spell my words.
                          I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've never had TWeb "correct" my spelling for me. Are you sure the culprit is not your web browser?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Found the cuprit. An Intenret Explorer add-on. I swtched it off. That won't bothre me again.

                            Another question: Do those icons move? They used to on my old computer before the T-Web crash.
                            When I Survey....

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Faber View Post
                              Another question: Do those icons move? They used to on my old computer before the T-Web crash.
                              You mean these: ?

                              They should be moving. Atleast they're animated in my browser. I avoid Internet Explorer like the plague though, so I don't know if they're animated on that browser as well.

                              Comment

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