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Is libertarian free will coherent?

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  • Is libertarian free will coherent?

    Most participants on this site are religious to some extent and most seem to be Christians. Most Christians believe in libertarian free will. That is, they reject determinism, are incompatibilists, and believe that our will, mind, and consciousness is not determined by anything and are free to choose any number of possible courses of action. Libertarian free will requires at least 3 things:

    (1) We are in control of our will
    (2) our mind is causally effective
    (3) in the same situation we could have done otherwise

    This view is popular among lay people but not among scientists and philosophers. Why is this? It's because libertarian free will is incoherent.

    One simple question to ask the libertarian is: do our thoughts have causes? Yes or no?

    If our thoughts have causes, what ever caused that can't be our will or our mind, because our thoughts are our will and mind. Saying that the soul causes the thoughts just pushes the issue back one step further, because the question now becomes, does the soul have a cause? If it does, then what ever caused it can't be the soul or the mind or the will, it has to be something other. And once you have that, you are essentially admitting that your will is not truly free, since it has a cause that is not us and that we cannot control.

    If our thoughts do not have causes, then you are saying that it begins to exist without a cause. This could violate the kalam cosmological argument's first premise (everything that begins to exist has a cause) and would essentially falsify it. If our thoughts had no cause they would be totally random fluctuations and it would be a mere coincidence that they had any connection to the physical world or reality.

    On top of that, the ability to choose your thoughts is logically impossible. You can't have a thought, about a thought, before you have a thought. You can't choose what your next thought, desire, or idea will be. In order to do that, you'd have to think about it, before you think about it. That's incoherent. If you can't choose your next thought, or any of your thoughts, how is your will or mind controlled by you, and in what sense is it free? It isn't. Thoughts arise in consciousness and we have no control over it.

    Right now I'm only asking for a justification of (1) above. (2) and (3) is a whole other argument that only adds to the difficulty the libertarian has.

    So what's a libertarian free will believer to do? Here are some typical nonstarter responses:

    1. If we don't have free will moral responsibility goes out the window!

    This is an informal fallacy known as an appeal to consequences. The undesirable consequences of a thing say nothing about whether it is false. For example, creationists will often say, "If we evolved then we're just animals. I don't like that, so evolution is false." This is a fallacious way of reasoning. The undesirability of being related to monkeys says nothing about whether evolution is true.

    2. If we don't have free will rationality goes out the window!

    This is similar to an appeal to consequences but not quite. If libertarian free will itself is not coherent and its coherency cannot be established, then you cannot claim that without it there is no rationality. You'd be arguing from a square-circle.

    Basically, I want to challenge all believers in libertarian free will to make a positive argument for the coherency of libertarian free will. I don't need every single detail explained, I just need you to show how it is even logically coherent and not self-refuting. Or, admit that you can't. So who is up to the challenge? I want respondents to focus on the positive argument for LFW, not fallacious appeals to consequences.
    Blog: Atheism and the City

    If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.

  • #2
    Originally posted by The Thinker View Post
    Most participants on this site are religious to some extent and most seem to be Christians. Most Christians believe in libertarian free will. That is, they reject determinism, are incompatibilists, and believe that our will, mind, and consciousness is not determined by anything and are free to choose any number of possible courses of action. Libertarian free will requires at least 3 things:

    (1) We are in control of our will
    (2) our mind is causally effective
    (3) in the same situation we could have done otherwise

    This view is popular among lay people but not among scientists and philosophers. Why is this? It's because libertarian free will is incoherent.
    What are you doing Thinker? Are you appealing to our conscious reasoning with this? No, you can't be because our conscious reasoning play no part in this process. Perhaps you are appealing to our brain chemicals - but you know those brain chemicals, you can never be sure what they are going to report to the conscious mind, right or wrong, true or false. In this argument Thinker can you demonstrate that your brain chemicals caused you to spit out the truth?
    Last edited by seer; 12-11-2015, 12:27 PM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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    • #3
      I suspect most Christians, and most people in general, to the extent that they even think about this question, think that they have only a limited degree of free will, with the limitations being based on a wide variety of factors, including genetic and other biological factors.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        What are you doing Thinker? Are you appealing to our conscious reasoning with this? No, you can't be because our conscious reasoning play no part in this process. Perhaps you are appealing to our brain chemicals - but you know those brain chemicals, you can never be sure what they are going to report to the conscious mind, right or wrong, true or false. In this argument Thinker can you demonstrate that your brain chemicals caused you to spit out the truth?
        You did exactly what I thought you would do:

        2. If we don't have free will rationality goes out the window!

        This is similar to an appeal to consequences but not quite. If libertarian free will itself is not coherent and its coherency cannot be established, then you cannot claim that without it there is no rationality. You'd be arguing from a square-circle.


        Make a positive argument showing LFW is coherent.
        Blog: Atheism and the City

        If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          I suspect most Christians, and most people in general, to the extent that they even think about this question, think that they have only a limited degree of free will, with the limitations being based on a wide variety of factors, including genetic and other biological factors.
          The spirit is willing but the limitations may be real.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            I suspect most Christians, and most people in general, to the extent that they even think about this question, think that they have only a limited degree of free will, with the limitations being based on a wide variety of factors, including genetic and other biological factors.
            That's not really the point. The point is to challenge anyone to show how libertarian free will is even coherent. Whether or not our will is limited by genetic and other biological factors is irrelevant.
            Blog: Atheism and the City

            If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              The spirit is willing but the limitations may be real.
              But can you make an argument showing LFW is coherent?
              Blog: Atheism and the City

              If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by The Thinker View Post
                You did exactly what I thought you would do:

                2. If we don't have free will rationality goes out the window!

                This is similar to an appeal to consequences but not quite. If libertarian free will itself is not coherent and its coherency cannot be established, then you cannot claim that without it there is no rationality. You'd be arguing from a square-circle.


                Make a positive argument showing LFW is coherent.
                So again Thinker, are you appealing to my conscious reasoning or something else? And how do you know that your brain chemicals caused you to spit out a truism in this case, since conscious reasoning or deliberation play no role?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Thinker View Post
                  That's not really the point. The point is to challenge anyone to show how libertarian free will is even coherent. Whether or not our will is limited by genetic and other biological factors is irrelevant.
                  I thought (and still do think) that it was relevant to your claim that "Most Christians believe in libertarian free will. That is, they reject determinism, are incompatibilists, and believe that our will, mind, and consciousness is not determined by anything and are free to choose any number of possible courses of action."
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    I suspect most Christians, and most people in general, to the extent that they even think about this question, think that they have only a limited degree of free will, with the limitations being based on a wide variety of factors, including genetic and other biological factors.
                    The 'suspect most Christians' believe . . . is conjecture that is questionable. I believe a form of Libertarian or the predominance 'Free Will' in one form or another is the predominant view of most evangelical Christians, and the central theme of some churches like the 'Free Will Baptists' and Seventh Day Adventists. The more literal Christians consider scripture the stronger the belief in Free Will.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Thinker View Post
                      But can you make an argument showing LFW is coherent?
                      Not without exploding my brain.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        So again Thinker, are you appealing to my conscious reasoning or something else? And how do you know that your brain chemicals caused you to spit out a truism in this case, since conscious reasoning or deliberation play no role?
                        You obviously want me to accept LFW is true. OK. Prove it's coherent first. I'm not asking you to prove it is true, just prove it is coherent. Do you understand that?

                        Stop avoiding what you have to do - Make a positive argument showing LFW is coherent. Or admit it is not.

                        This post is the one chance for all you believers to prove LFW is even coherent. If you can't this will be up here forever as a testament to the fact neither you, nor anyone can.
                        Blog: Atheism and the City

                        If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Not without exploding my brain.
                          True.
                          Blog: Atheism and the City

                          If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I believe humans have a 'Will' but it is not necessarily free in terms of Humans have a potential of 'Free Will,' but it is not often exercised.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Opening caveat: I'm probing here to increase my understanding, which isn't especially deep. It will be helpful if you don't see this as a full frontal assault, and provide thoughtful answers.

                              Originally posted by The Thinker View Post
                              Most participants on this site are religious to some extent and most seem to be Christians. Most Christians believe in libertarian free will.
                              Correction: many Christians believe in libertarian free will. I would venture to say that most who believe in free will would have no idea what is meant by LFW. At least a significant percentage of Protestants are Calvinists, and given Augustine's strong stance on determinism and his vast authority in the Roman Catholic church, I'd venture to say that LFW is a minority position among Roman Catholics.
                              That is, they reject determinism, are incompatibilists, and believe that our will, mind, and consciousness is not determined by anything and are free to choose any number of possible courses of action.
                              On a subject this contentious, I wouldn't touch Wikipedia with a 10-ft. pole.
                              Libertarian free will requires at least 3 things:

                              (1) We are in control of our will
                              (2) our mind is causally effective
                              (3) in the same situation we could have done otherwise

                              This view is popular among lay people but not among scientists and philosophers. Why is this? It's because libertarian free will is incoherent.

                              One simple question to ask the libertarian is: do our thoughts have causes? Yes or no?

                              If our thoughts have causes, what ever caused that can't be our will or our mind, because our thoughts are our will and mind. Saying that the soul causes the thoughts just pushes the issue back one step further, because the question now becomes, does the soul have a cause? If it does, then what ever caused it can't be the soul or the mind or the will, it has to be something other. And once you have that, you are essentially admitting that your will is not truly free, since it has a cause that is not us and that we cannot control.

                              If our thoughts do not have causes, then you are saying that it begins to exist without a cause. This could violate the kalam cosmological argument's first premise (everything that begins to exist has a cause) and would essentially falsify it. If our thoughts had no cause they would be totally random fluctuations and it would be a mere coincidence that they had any connection to the physical world or reality.

                              On top of that, the ability to choose your thoughts is logically impossible. You can't have a thought, about a thought, before you have a thought. You can't choose what your next thought, desire, or idea will be. In order to do that, you'd have to think about it, before you think about it. That's incoherent. If you can't choose your next thought, or any of your thoughts, how is your will or mind controlled by you, and in what sense is it free? It isn't. Thoughts arise in consciousness and we have no control over it.
                              This does not seem to me to be a valid attack on LFW, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding something. AFAICT, LFW doesn't deal with how, for example, thoughts arise, but with how we respond to the thoughts which arise. Do thoughts have causes? Sure. They typically come from external or internal stimuli or our subconscious (which is a sum total of our lifetime stimuli and resultant thoughts). They can also come from spiritual sources.
                              Right now I'm only asking for a justification of (1) above. (2) and (3) is a whole other argument that only adds to the difficulty the libertarian has.
                              For starters, you could provide support for your assertion that LFW requires (1), (2), and (3). I didn't see any in your post.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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