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theophilus
12-14-2015, 06:49 AM
One issue that people disagree over is how long the six days of creation were. Some people think they were literal 24 hour days and some think that they were merely long time periods of indefinite length. Which side is correct? Is it even possible that both views are wrong?

Sometimes the word “day” is used in the Bible to denote a long period of time. For example, the time of God’s judgment at the end of the age is called the Day of the Lord. And in Genesis 2:4 the entire creation period is called a day.


These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

But could the days of creation have been such indeterminate periods of time?

The first day is described in Genesis 1:3-5.


And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

The day included a period of light and a period of darkness. This day and each of those that followed it are described as consisting of an evening and a morning. It is clear that these were literal days, each one consisting of one rotation of the earth on its axis.

Does this mean they were 24 hour days like the ones we have today? That would depend on whether the earth rotated at the same speed then that it does today.

The worldwide flood in Noah’s time involved more that just covering the world with water. The fact that the water in the oceans once covered the whole world shows that the surface of the earth was much flatter before the flood. After the flood the continents and islands rose up so that they were above the water.


The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them. You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth.
Psalm 104:8-9 ESV

Changes of this magnitude could have changed the speed of the earth’s rotation and thus changed the length of the day.

The earliest calendars that we have any record of are based on a 360 day year with extra days added to bring the calendar into alignment with the seasons. Why didn’t they simple develop a 365 days calendar to begin with? One possible explanation is that before the flood there were only 360 days in a year and the first civilizations after the flood retained the old calendars instead of making new ones.

To calculate the possible length of a preflood day I first found the number of minutes in the extra 5 1/4 days. The result was 7,560 minutes. I then divided this by the 360 days and got 21 minutes. If our days were 21 minutes longer there would be 360 days in the year and the earliest calendars would have been accurate and not needed any adjustments. It seems possible that the days of creation were actually 24 hours and 21 minutes long.

Cerebrum123
12-14-2015, 08:51 AM
Not only that, but the creation week was compared to a normal work week in Exodus.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Kbertsche
12-14-2015, 10:45 AM
One issue that people disagree over is how long the six days of creation were. Some people think they were literal 24 hour days and some think that they were merely long time periods of indefinite length. Which side is correct? Is it even possible that both views are wrong?
You seem to be primarily describing the common YEC view and the "day-age" OEC view. Keep in mind that there are more views as well.

Some argue that the Days are literal 24-hour days, but that there are long, indeterminate periods of time BETWEEN the days.

Some argue that the Days are not days of creation, but "days of communication" in which God communicated either what He was about to do ("days of proclamation") or what He had done ("days of revelation" or "visionary days").

Some argue that the whole account is a literary structure, essentially a parable, using normal days to describe something which may have occurred in a different sequence over a different timescale (the "Framework Hypothesis").



Sometimes the word “day” is used in the Bible to denote a long period of time. For example, the time of God’s judgment at the end of the age is called the Day of the Lord. And in Genesis 2:4 the entire creation period is called a day.


These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

But could the days of creation have been such indeterminate periods of time?

The first day is described in Genesis 1:3-5.


And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

The day included a period of light and a period of darkness. This day and each of those that followed it are described as consisting of an evening and a morning. It is clear that these were literal days, each one consisting of one rotation of the earth on its axis.
No, it is NOT at all clear that these were "literal days". Some of the early church fathers (Origen?) argued that the first three Days could NOT be normal days, since the sun was not created until Day 4.



Does this mean they were 24 hour days like the ones we have today? That would depend on whether the earth rotated at the same speed then that it does today.

The worldwide flood in Noah’s time involved more that just covering the world with water. The fact that the water in the oceans once covered the whole world shows that the surface of the earth was much flatter before the flood. After the flood the continents and islands rose up so that they were above the water.

Here you are forcing your interpretation of a "worldwide flood". The Flood may well have been local or regional.

The land would have had to be very flat. If all of the water in earth's ice caps were melted, the sea level rise would be less than 80 meters (http://pumas.nasa.gov/files/02_10_97_1.pdf).




The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them. You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth.
Psalm 104:8-9 ESV

First, in the context of Psalm 104, this is describing Day 3a of creation, NOT Noah's Flood. (See Keil & Delitzsch, (http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/kdo/view.cgi?bk=18&ch=104) for example.)

Second, the Hebrew here is somewhat difficult and ambiguous, but I believe that the NIV here is a better fit to both the Hebrew grammar and the context:

But at your rebuke the waters fled,
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight;
they flowed over the mountains,
they went down into the valleys,
to the place you assigned for them.
You set a boundary they cannot cross;
never again will they cover the earth.
Psalm 104:7-9 NIV11



Changes of this magnitude could have changed the speed of the earth’s rotation and thus changed the length of the day.
Why and how? Any change to the earth's moment of inertia would be pretty small.



The earliest calendars that we have any record of are based on a 360 day year with extra days added to bring the calendar into alignment with the seasons. Why didn’t they simple develop a 365 days calendar to begin with? One possible explanation is that before the flood there were only 360 days in a year and the first civilizations after the flood retained the old calendars instead of making new ones.
Another possibility is that they simply rounded the number.



To calculate the possible length of a preflood day I first found the number of minutes in the extra 5 1/4 days. The result was 7,560 minutes. I then divided this by the 360 days and got 21 minutes. If our days were 21 minutes longer there would be 360 days in the year and the earliest calendars would have been accurate and not needed any adjustments. It seems possible that the days of creation were actually 24 hours and 21 minutes long.
Possibly, but this is quite speculative.

theophilus
12-15-2015, 08:13 AM
Some argue that the Days are literal 24-hour days, but that there are long, indeterminate periods of time BETWEEN the days.

Some argue that the Days are not days of creation, but "days of communication" in which God communicated either what He was about to do ("days of proclamation") or what He had done ("days of revelation" or "visionary days").

Some argue that the whole account is a literary structure, essentially a parable, using normal days to describe something which may have occurred in a different sequence over a different timescale (the "Framework Hypothesis").
Yes, a lot of people reject the plain teaching of the Bible and try to interpret it so that it doesn't contradict the generally held beliefs.



No, it is NOT at all clear that these were "literal days". Some of the early church fathers (Origen?) argued that the first three Days could NOT be normal days, since the sun was not created until Day 4.
What they fail to understand is that the Bible doesn't say that the sun was created on the fourth day. It says that God placed lights in the sky but it doesn't say that the bodies that were the source of those lights were created at that time. The creation account begins with the earth in darkness. On the first day light appears. Previously the earth was covered with clouds that were so thick no light could reach the earth. On the first day these clouds thinned out enough so that light could reach the earth but the sun could not be seen. On the fourth day the cloud cover dissipated so that the sun, moon, and stars could be seen.

Quantum Weirdness
12-19-2015, 09:02 PM
I would advise anybody to read Rodney Whitefield (http://www.creationingenesis.com/Genesis_One_and_the_Age_of_the_Earth.pdf) on this issue. Also, see here (http://www.creationingenesis.com/). He makes a good argument IMO.

Truthseeker
12-20-2015, 01:38 PM
I would advise anybody to read Rodney Whitefield (http://www.creationingenesis.com/Genesis_One_and_the_Age_of_the_Earth.pdf) on this issue. Also, see here (http://www.creationingenesis.com/).

The first link does not work on my computer. The 2nd link does work.

In my Deep Time thread, Kbertsche was the first and so far only reader who suggested Whitefield's work.

Seve
12-07-2016, 05:38 PM
Each of God's Days is NOT 24 hours since the word days comes from the Hebrew word Yowm which can mean 12 or 24 hours, a period of time, a lifetime or an Eternity. A Day in Genesis is a period of labor and God has ONLY 6 periods of labor when He is working to make His perfect Heaven and fill it with perfect mankind.

Today, God continues to create sinners in Christ which means that we live today at Gen 1:27 because God is STILL creating Adam (mankind) in Christ. We will NOT advance to the prophecy of Gen 1:28-31 until AFTER Jesus returns.

A Yowm is a period of Labor or work when God is doing His work of creating. There is NO time limit or number of days, years, etc. A good example is the Scriptural Fact that TODAY remains the 6th Creative Day and this Day will NOT end until AFTER our Cosmos is burned which is AFTER Jesus rules and reigns on Earth for a thousand years. Revelation 20:5

The dating of the Ancient Religious Leaders and Archbishop James Ussher does NOT agree with the observed Truth of History. Another good example is the below which shows that the first Human cities were built (some are still with us) by Noah's great grandsons some 10-12k years ago. Gen 10:10.

http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html

God bless

hansgeorg
12-08-2016, 10:29 AM
The dating of the Ancient Religious Leaders and Archbishop James Ussher does NOT agree with the observed Truth of History. Another good example is the below which shows that the first Human cities were built (some are still with us) by Noah's great grandsons some 10-12k years ago. Gen 10:10.

http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html

Kerkamash 7500 BC - presumably by Carbon dating.

Suppose, however, that carbon 14 rate was radically lower, what could that mean in real dates?

2778 av. J.-Chr.
40,23593 % + 7550 ans, 10 328 av. J.-Chr.
2599 av. J.-Chr.
62,75068 % + 3850 ans, 6449 av. J.-Chr.

So, since 7500 BC is between 10 328 BC and 6449 BC, the real dates could be between 2778 and 2599 BC.

See the rest of my table here. (http://nov9blogg9.blogspot.fr/2015/10/avec-un-peu-daide-de-fibonacci-jai-une.html)

Seve
12-08-2016, 03:43 PM
The dating of the Ancient Religious Leaders and Archbishop James Ussher does NOT agree with the observed Truth of History.

The basis of their dating methodology leaves thousands of years more (if not double) to be added to the estimated numbers of years of the event of the Flood (6K) at the time Noah set foot on this present planet of ours.... AFTER their former world was totally destroyed and dissolved by the flood.

Below you will find the empirical evidence for the*SUDDEN*arrival of Human Farmers on this Planet. It happened some 10k + - years ago*EXACTLY*where God told us it did in*Gen 8:4, in the mountains of Ararat. Notice that Big Lake which is between Mt. Ararat and the Center of the Fertile Crescent. Also notice the date when this event happened.*Map: Fertile Crescent, 9000 to 4500 BCE

The valleys just SW of these mountains are in Northern Mesopotamia, the Cradle of Human Civilization on this Earth. The*FIRST*Human farming, city building, and*ALL*of the traits of modern Humans began in this area.*

Gen 10:10*shows that the great grandsons of Noah*BUILT*these first Human cities, some of which are still standing. The important part is that*HISTORY*agrees, leaving the False assumption of Religionist - the odd man out - since it has*NOT*noticed this event.

God bless

hansgeorg
12-09-2016, 02:39 AM
The dating of the Ancient Religious Leaders and Archbishop James Ussher does NOT agree with the observed Truth of History.

I would agree about Archlayman Ussher, but that is because he is using the wrong text.

Use LXX, you get Flood in 2957 BC. At least on St Jerome's calculation - Byzantines get a somewhat less recent date.

[Byzantine and Roman martyrologies have Christ born respectively 5508 and 5199 after Creation, and same amount of years from Creation to Flood, so:

5508 2957
5199 0309
0309 3266

A Byzantine, also counting per LXX, would get Flood in 3266 BC]


Below you will find the empirical evidence for the*SUDDEN*arrival of Human Farmers on this Planet. It happened some 10k + - years ago*EXACTLY*where God told us it did in*Gen 8:4, in the mountains of Ararat. Notice that Big Lake which is between Mt. Ararat and the Center of the Fertile Crescent. Also notice the date when this event happened.*Map: Fertile Crescent, 9000 to 4500 BCE

OK, will quote my table again ...

2778 av. J.-Chr.
40,23593 % + 7550 ans, 10 328 av. J.-Chr.
2599 av. J.-Chr.
62,75068 % + 3850 ans, 6449 av. J.-Chr.
2420 av. J.-Chr.
76,66562 % + 2200 ans, 4620 av. J.-Chr.

9000 BC - 4500 BC reduces approximately as 10 328 - 4620 BC. In my view to 2778 - 2420 BC. And the extra years in the carbon dating are not "observed history", but the fact that:

2778 BC atmosphere had 40,23593 % of the carbon 14 level observed today, means an extra 7550 years.

02778 BC (real date)
07550 (extra age)
10328 BC (carbon dated)

In 2420 BC, carbon 14 level had risen to 76,66562 % in today's atmosphere, means we add only 2200 years.

2420 BC (real date)
2200 (extra age)
4620 BC (carbon dated)

Seve
12-09-2016, 03:32 AM
Read Gen 2:4-7 very slowly.... and you will find that Adam, the first Human, was made the 3rd Day, the Same Day the first Earth was made AND the Day/Age when the 2nd and 3rd Heavens/Universes were made. We live today in the 2nd Universe and when this one is burned, ll Peter 3:10 Christians will go to the THIRD Heaven or World, ll Cor 12:2 which also was made on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4

Our Heaven/Cosmos was made the 3rd Day and today is STILL the 6th Day/Age because God (the Trinity) is STILL "creating" Adam (mankind) in His Image or in Christ TODAY. We continue to live today at Gen 1:27 and we will NOT advance to the PROPHECY of Gen 1:28-31 until After Jesus returns and changes ALL animals into vegetarians. Gen 1:30 Amen?

Six minus 3 equals 3 of God's Days/Ages since the beginning or Big Bang of our Cosmos, which was 13.7 Billion years ago. This means that each of God's Days/Ages is some 4.5 Billion years in man's time.

Adam lived with Jesus for some 10 Billion years (as Jesus meet) BEFORE any other creature was created and brought forth from the water here on our present world/planet on the 5th Day, Gen 1:21 which was some 3.7 Billion years ago, in man's time.

Science measured our present world to be 4.5b years of age and it agrees with the time frame alluded in the Scripture during the Genesis.


God bless

hansgeorg
12-12-2016, 02:57 AM
and today is STILL the 6th Day/Age because God (the Trinity) is STILL "creating" Adam (mankind) in His Image or in Christ TODAY.

The key word of what is wrong is the word "still" as if the original creation of man and the sanctification of men, both leading to God's image indeed, were one and the same act, narrated in one and the same words.

hansgeorg
12-12-2016, 02:59 AM
Science measured our present world to be 4.5b years of age and it agrees with the time frame alluded in the Scripture during the Genesis.

The 4.5 billion years are not something which "science" actually "measured". It is sth which scientists have concluded from certain measurements, but their conclusions can be wrong and in this case are so.

Seve
12-12-2016, 03:27 AM
The key word of what is wrong is the word "still" as if the original creation of man and the sanctification of men, both leading to God's image indeed, were one and the same act, narrated in one and the same words.

Dear hansgeorg,

Just so you know, NOT everybody is created in the image and likeness of God, unless, one is BORN AGAIN in spirit or in Christ. Jesus Christ, the Son, is the express image of the invisible God. In him (Christ, the Son) is the fulness of Godhead, bodily (physically). If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father.

Most certainly, Cain who was a murderer and a liar from the beginning was NOT an image and likeness of God.

The Almighty God Father is a Spirit without physical shape or form and changes not.... therefore, you must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit v46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

God bless

hansgeorg
12-12-2016, 03:49 AM
Most certainly, Cain who was a murderer and a liar from the beginning was NOT an image and likeness of God.

With Adam's Sin, we retained the image but lost the likeness. Some regained it, some (like Cain) didn't.

But Cain's father and mother were, when created, both image and also likeness of God.

Seve
12-12-2016, 04:27 AM
With Adam's Sin, we retained the image but lost the likeness. Some regained it, some (like Cain) didn't.

But Cain's father and mother were, when created, both image and also likeness of God.

Dear hansgeorg

Perhaps, what you STILL don't realized, even to this date when Moses is read.... is the Biblical Facts that... Adam was MADE just a natural Living Soul on the 3rd Day and was only CREATED in the image and likeness of God on the 6th Day.......In the Day, AFTER Adam had already committed his "original sin"; AFTER Cain had already killed Abel; and only AFTER when men started to call upon the name of the Lord (Gen 4:26) during Seth's Generations!

Since God is rich and full of mercy, the Trinity decided to redeemed Adam.... by making him a quickening spirit.

Look and read....

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. IN THE DAY that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; v2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, IN THE DAY when they were created. v3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:


You don't see the generations of Cain being included in the generations of Adam IN THE DAY Adam and his generations were created in the image and likeness of God, do you?

Of course not!!! Only willingly ignorant will continue to stumble to this Truth.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit v46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

God bless

hansgeorg
12-12-2016, 04:53 AM
is the Biblical Facts that... Adam was MADE just a natural Living Soul on the 3rd Day and was only CREATED in the image and likeness of God on the 6th Day.......In the Day, AFTER Adam had already committed his "original sin"; AFTER Cain had already killed Abel; and only AFTER when men started to call upon the name of the Lord (Gen 4:26) during Seth's Generations!

Oh, you take the chapters of Genesis as chronological?

Seve
12-12-2016, 05:55 AM
Oh, you take the chapters of Genesis as chronological?

Dear hansgeorg,

Since God sees the end from the beginning, Isa 46:10 He wrote the complete HISTORY of His Seven Days in the first 34 verses of Genesis. At Gen 2:4 the narrative RETURNS to the details of the THIRD Day.

IOW, Genesis 1 is an Outline of ALL of the events leading to the Creation of the Perfect Heaven. Most of the rest of the Bible refers to the present 6th Day, but ALL of the Bible refers to the events of God's 6 Creative Days. That's why we are taken back to the 3rd Day at Gen 2:4. The narrative is adding details to the events listed in Gen 1. Both accounts Gen 1 & 2 agree totally and in detail.

Gen 2:4-7 ADDS details to the events of the 3rd Day, the SAME Day Adam was Formed (Heb - yatsar) . The details show that Adam was made.... then plants, herbs and trees, which were put into the Garden of Eden, which is another detail to ADD to the outline of the events of God's 7 Days as shown in the first 34 verses of Genesis. Gen 2:8-9

THEN, Adam was "created" (Heb - bara') in God's Image or born again Spiritually on the 6th Day at the SAME time Eve was "created" (Heb - bara') Spiritually, Gen 5:1-2. Adam could NOT have been born Spiritually until the 6th Day because Eve was NOT made from his rib until the 6th Day. Gen 2:22

It's all a part of God's way of hiding His Truth from everyone except those who have been born again Spiritually AND live in the last days of our Age.

God bless

Littlejoe
11-22-2018, 01:35 PM
Jeff's post's and responses to them were split off into it's own thread in the appropriate forum (Unorthodox Forum)