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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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What Is Man?

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  • What Is Man?

    "In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” Richard Dawkins


    "Remember that the dullest most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which,if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree helping each other to one or the other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all of our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors.” C.S. Lewis
    Two very stark views of mankind. In one men are just the accidental by product of the forces of nature, no ultimate purpose, no overriding justice - in reality no good or evil. In the other view men have a purpose, were created for a reason. And have a future - what we do here has eternal consequences raising our behavior to a level far beyond what is the case in a godless universe. Our behaviors are much more important because we are much more important.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Two very stark views of mankind. In one men are just the accidental by product of the forces of nature, no ultimate purpose, no overriding justice - in reality no good or evil. In the other view men have a purpose, were created for a reason. And have a future - what we do here has eternal consequences raising our behavior to a level far beyond what is the case in a godless universe. Our behaviors are much more important because we are much more important.
    These two extreme views of 'What is human?' do not necessarily answer the question, nor accurately address the issue objectively.

    As always I have considered CS Lewis's view naïve and idealistic, and Dawkins view cold, overtly materialistic and extreme.

    I will look for more objective views of what it is to be human.

    First, an objective view from the scientific view does not consider the physical nature of our humanity as well as the nature of our physical existence 'accidental.' Being an accident would refer to an event or circumstance that is unpredictable or unforeseeable. This is not the case for the nature of our physical existence.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      First, an objective view from the scientific view does not consider the physical nature of our humanity as well as the nature of our physical existence 'accidental.' Being an accident would refer to an event or circumstance that is unpredictable or unforeseeable. This is not the case for the nature of our physical existence.
      Really, our existence was foreseeable and predictable? By whom? And if you don't like accidental we could say that there was no purpose for humankind.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        The natural emergence of human beings is not inevitable but it is possible. The emergence of life is obviously much more likely. It is our rarity in the cosmos that gives us value. But the appreciation of that value is for us alone to consider. The cosmos does not know us and is unwittingly hostile to our continued existence. Even we hate ourselves so much that we design bombs to kill ourselves by the millions and we invent religions and gods to divide us.
        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
        “not all there” - you know who you are

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Really, our existence was foreseeable and predictable? By whom? And if you don't like accidental we could say that there was no purpose for humankind.
          The belief that there is no purpose for humanity is likewise a simplistic extreme view, like Dawkins. It is not whether I like accidental or not, it is a bad choice of words. Yes the existence of life, and humanity is predictable by natural causes. It is not necessarily the only out come in any given world in our universe, but it is a consistent predictable outcome by natural causes.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-23-2015, 01:47 PM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            The natural emergence of human beings is not inevitable but it is possible. The emergence of life is obviously much more likely. It is our rarity in the cosmos that gives us value. But the appreciation of that value is for us alone to consider. The cosmos does not know us and is unwittingly hostile to our continued existence. Even we hate ourselves so much that we design bombs to kill ourselves by the millions and we invent religions and gods to divide us.
            Actually it is unknown how rare the natural emergence of human beings is, because we have insufficient information as to how common planets similar to ours is in our universe. We are only just beginning to discover a few planets near by that are in some way similar to ours. Considering the great expanse of time, space, and galaxies involved we have a long way to know how common intelligent life like humans is in the cosmos.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              The belief that there is no purpose for humanity is likewise a simplistic extreme view, like Dawkins. It is not whether I like accidental or not, it is a bad choice of words. Yes the existence of life, and humanity is predictable by natural causes. It is not necessarily the only out come in any given world in our universe, but it is a consistent predictable outcome by natural causes.
              It is not simplistic Shuny, of course there is no purpose for man - if there is please tell us what that purpose is. And no human life is not predictable because it is not a necessary consequence of natural forces.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #8
                **EXTRA ** Shunyadragon implicitly claims he can answer who, where, when, how, why questions about a given person's death. **EXTRA**
                The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  It is not simplistic Shuny, of course there is no purpose for man - if there is please tell us what that purpose is. And no human life is not predictable because it is not a necessary consequence of natural forces.
                  Then you believe there is no purpose for humanity. Is that right?
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                    **EXTRA ** Shunyadragon implicitly claims he can answer who, where, when, how, why questions about a given person's death. **EXTRA**
                    No, but seer seems to have everything worked and all the questions answered.
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-23-2015, 05:07 PM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Actually it is unknown how rare the natural emergence of human beings is, because we have insufficient information as to how common planets similar to ours is in our universe. We are only just beginning to discover a few planets near by that are in some way similar to ours. Considering the great expanse of time, space, and galaxies involved we have a long way to know how common intelligent life like humans is in the cosmos.
                      See Fermi Paradox – “Where is everybody?”
                      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                      “not all there” - you know who you are

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Then you believe there is no purpose for humanity. Is that right?
                        No, I'm saying that if atheism/materialism is true there is no purpose for humankind. But as a Theist of course I believe we were designed for a purpose.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          No, I'm saying that if atheism/materialism is true there is no purpose for humankind.
                          It just means that you have to be your own god and discover your purpose by yourself.
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            See Fermi Paradox – “Where is everybody?”
                            The assumption of the Fermi paradox is flawed: (1) It assumes habituated earth like planets with intelligent beings ever develop interstellar travel. We haven't, and it is an open question whether we will ever be able to. (2) There is a possibility though very very small that they have visited us. (3) Our horizon in space and time for discovering other earth-like planets is limited by present technology even in our galaxy. (4) There are likely millions if not billions of possible galaxies we have no access at present. (5) If your blind it is unlikely that you will see anyone beyond the tip of your nose.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              It just means that you have to be your own god and discover your purpose by yourself.
                              Yes, as Hitler did, and Mao, and Stalin....
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

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