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Is Creation ex nihilo

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  • Is Creation ex nihilo

    A thread on this was started in Christianity 201 a Christians only section. I thought it worthwhile to start one her so everyone can have a shot at it.

    Question: Does scripture determine that creation ex nihilo the only option?
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    I believe there are two possible options. In the first theophilus presented a simple straight forward argument that the best conclusion is ex nihilo.

    Originally posted by theophilus
    God is eternal and so has no beginning. If we reject the belief that he created the first matter ex nihilo then we must believe that matter is also eternal or there would be nothing from which God could create anything.
    I support the contrary position: Biblically there was some sort of existence prior to the actual Creation story. I believe this existence is infinite with God. I believe it is without time as we know it. It is from this existence that God created our universe and all possible universes. I believe a scientific parallel would be the Quantum zero-point field at absolute zero. From the naturalist perspective our universe formed from a singularity that formed in this Quantum zero-point void.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      It's been awhile since I've read Mortimer J Adler's cosmolgoical arguments but this sums it up pretty nicely.


      In his 1981 book “How to Think About God”, Adler attempts to demonstrate God as the exnihilator of the cosmos. The steps taken to demonstrate this are as follows:

      1. The existence of an effect requiring the concurrent existence and action of an efficient cause implies the existence and action of that cause
      2. The cosmos as a whole exists
      3. The existence of the cosmos as a whole is radically contingent (meaning that it needs an efficient cause of its continuing existence to preserve it in being, and prevent it from being annihilated, or reduced to nothing)
      4. If the cosmos needs an efficient cause of its continuing existence, then that cause must be a supernatural being, supernatural in its action, and one the existence of which is uncaused, in other words, the Supreme Being, or God

      Two of the four premises, the first and the last, appear to be true with certitude. The second is true beyond a reasonable doubt. If the one remaining premise, the third, is also true beyond a reasonable doubt, then we can conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that God exists and acts to sustain the cosmos in existence.

      The reason we can conceive the cosmos as being radically rather than superficially contingent is due to the fact that the cosmos which now exists is only one of many possible universes that might have in fact existed in the past, and might still exist in the future. This is not to say that any cosmos other than this one ever did exist in the past, or ever will exist in the future. It is not necessary to go that far in order to say that other universes might have existed in the past and might exist in the future. If other universes are possible, than this one also is merely possible, not necessary. . . .

      The next step in the argument is the crucial one. It consists in saying that whatever might have been otherwise in shape or structure is something that also might not exist at all. That which cannot be otherwise also cannot not exist; and conversely, what necessarily exists can not be otherwise than it is. Therefore, a cosmos which can be otherwise is one that also cannot be; and conversely, a cosmos that is capable of not existing at all is one that can be otherwise than it now is.

      Applying this insight to the fact that the existing cosmos is merely one of a plurality of possible universes, we come to the conclusion that the cosmos, radically contingent in existence, would not exist at all were its existence not caused. A merely possible cosmos cannot be an uncaused cosmos. A cosmos that is radically contingent in existence, and needs a cause of that existence, needs a supernatural cause, one that exists and acts to exnihilate this merely possible cosmos, thus preventing the realization of what is always possible for merely a possible cosmos, namely, its absolute non-existence or reduction to nothingness. . . .

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortimer_J._Adler
      I've been meaning to re-read Adler due to another thread dealing with issues of morality/ethics and now with this thread concerning the cosmological argument.
      Last edited by arnoldo; 12-24-2015, 05:00 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by arnoldo View Post
        It's been awhile since I've read Mortimer J Adler's cosmolgoical arguments but this sums it up pretty nicely.

        I've been meaning to re-read Adler due to another thread dealing with issues of morality/ethics and now with this thread concerning the cosmological argument.
        I need to read over this some before I reply. An initial observation is I do not consider his logical argument satisfactory, because for one; it appears to be coached to come to the necessary conclusion.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          THIS thread is NOT the same as the Christianity 201 thread. There it ASSUMES Creation IS ex nihilo, no argument. Maybe some participants violated this, but I avoided that thread for that reason (and that I'm not allowed in, even though I am a faithful Christian baptized as an adult--Roman Catholic to boot--in 1969), particularly because I have gotten into trouble already for arguing AGAINST creation ex nihilo (my faith label was involuntarily changed from "Christian" to "Unorthodox", even though I am NALC--middle-wing--Lutheran attending church every week and reciting the Nicene or Apostles each time).

          I see total FUTILITY in Theodicy or trying to "solve" the "Problem of Evil" if conceding creation ex nihilo. It's patently obvious that in such a world God COULD HAVE created nicer, more obviously "fair" living conditions. Case closed.

          If instead we picture a "universe" back to the "beginning" if such a thing can be conceived (I well remember as a boy of about 9 "tripping out" at the concept and becoming extremely fearful), would any or at any rate "OUR" God have existed fully the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Being we all (?) picture. Would not more likely "something" chaotic have "existed" that "evolved" into what we can really call God? If we at least entertain this idea, we might "picture" a state in which the Being(s) is (are) fluid in such a way that more then one "Will" subsists. Might such not develop into mutual hostility? Perhaps even such an opposition we even now in the West (and in Mahayana Buddhism) dogmatize as God vs. Satan. More than one essence? Dualism?
          I propose just such a scenario. Our own world in which we casually think even in monotheistic religions of God vs. the Devil(s) may not represent current reality, but a still play-acted vision of what once was, billions of years ago, back before God won the battle against Satan. (Maybe not so long ago--the Hindu Mahabharata suggests a cosmic battle only thousands of years ago--again, maybe a recapitulation of events billions of years ago.)

          There I said it. "Play-acting." That's my idea of several decades ago, probably the 1960's. I'm not aware of any literarature or person I've met who countenanced such a casual view of ultimate Reality. All suffering and pain vanishes as just the agreed-upon conditions in which we "all" struggle to keep "life" from being too boring. And saying that makes the prior paragraphs irrelevant--maybe God did create this all as a cosmic Shakespearean play we have all agreed to "act" within, all the pain and suffering being a means of exercising our minds and wills.
          Last edited by Adam; 12-24-2015, 06:53 PM.
          Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Adam View Post
            THIS thread is NOT the same as the Christianity 201 thread. There it ASSUMES Creation IS ex nihilo, no argument. Maybe some participants violated this, but I avoided that thread for that reason (and that I'm not allowed in, even though I am a faithful Christian baptized as an adult--Roman Catholic to boot--in 1969), particularly because I have gotten into trouble already for arguing AGAINST creation ex nihilo (my faith label was involuntarily changed from "Christian" to "Unorthodox", even though I am NALC--middle-wing--Lutheran attending church every week and reciting the Nicene or Apostles each time).

            I see total FUTILITY in Theodicy or trying to "solve" the "Problem of Evil" if conceding creation ex nihilo. It's patently obvious that in such a world God COULD HAVE created nicer, more obviously "fair" living conditions. Case closed.

            If instead we picture a "universe" back to the "beginning" if such a thing can be conceived (I well remember as a boy of about 9 "tripping out" at the concept and becoming extremely fearful), would any or at any rate "OUR" God have existed fully the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Being we all (?) picture. Would not more likely "something" chaotic have "existed" that "evolved" into what we can really call God? If we at least entertain this idea, we might "picture" a state in which the Being(s) is (are) fluid in such a way that more then one "Will" subsists. Might such not develop into mutual hostility? Perhaps even such an opposition we even now in the West (and in Mahayana Buddhism) dogmatize as God vs. Satan. More than one essence? Dualism?
            I propose just such a scenario. Our own world in which we casually think even in monotheistic religions of God vs. the Devil(s) may not represent current reality, but a still play-acted vision of what once was, billions of years ago, back before God won the battle against Satan. (Maybe not so long ago--the Hindu Mahabharata suggests a cosmic battle only thousands of years ago--again, maybe a recapitulation of events billions of years ago.)

            There I said it. "Play-acting." That's my idea of several decades ago, probably the 1960's. I'm not aware of any literarature or person I've met who countenanced such a casual view of ultimate Reality. All suffering and pain vanishes as just the agreed-upon conditions in which we "all" struggle to keep "life" from being too boring. And saying that makes the prior paragraphs irrelevant--maybe God did create this all as a cosmic Shakespearean play we have all agreed to "act" within, all the pain and suffering being a means of exercising our minds and wills.
            Be assured that this thread makes no assumptions either way. I meant it when I said, 'everyone has a shot at it.'
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              It simply makes the least mess of the scriptures and the doctrines of God.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                A thread on this was started in Christianity 201 a Christians only section. I thought it worthwhile to start one her so everyone can have a shot at it.

                Question: Does scripture determine that creation ex nihilo the only option?
                I dont think so. Its more like he formed the universe out of the pre-exiting primordial chaos. That primordial chaos could be thought of as the quantum energy field, aka the cosmos, out of which universes form and come to be. But in my opinion, if we are going to admit that the "Cosmos," the quantum field, is itself eternal and uncreated, then we should admit as well that it is in need of nothing to sustain its existence. The necessity of a supernatural cause in order to sustain that which is itself eternal seems to me to be nothing more than a contrivance by those who desire that there be a supernatural cause.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  The necessity of a supernatural cause in order to sustain that which is itself eternal . ..
                  Are you saying that since the universe is eternal it is a necessary universe and incapable of going out of existence?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by arnoldo View Post
                    Are you saying that since the universe is eternal it is a necessary universe and incapable of going out of existence?
                    Yes, that is what I am saying. If the universe didn't come into existence, then it can't go out of existence. I also find the concept of absolute nothingness to be incomprehensible.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I solved the Problem of Evil (twice, two different ways) and nobody even notices. Yet everyone notices my "Dirty Dozen" list and craves to be on it.
                      Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Adam View Post
                        I solved the Problem of Evil (twice, two different ways) and nobody even notices. Yet everyone notices my "Dirty Dozen" list and craves to be on it.
                        I noticed one of the times. And you seemed to get mad when I asked a question or two about how your view might have differed from that of Origen. Merry Christmas!
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          A thread on this was started in Christianity 201 a Christians only section. I thought it worthwhile to start one her so everyone can have a shot at it.

                          Question: Does scripture determine that creation ex nihilo the only option?
                          No. Scripture doesn't determine anything.

                          (you did say you wanted everyone...)

                          P.S. Fab festival
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by arnoldo View Post
                            Are you saying that since the universe is eternal it is a necessary universe and incapable of going out of existence?
                            In this concept universes are created and die by natural causes and natural law within a greater Quantum timeless existence, the void in the Bible. This void or Quantum timelessness existence has always existed infinitely as a reflection of God's attributes with the potential to Create universes.

                            I am not sure what would be 'necessary' here. From the human perspective, nothing is necessary concerning the nature of God and Creation,
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              No. Scripture doesn't determine anything.

                              (you did say you wanted everyone...)

                              P.S. Fab festival
                              I agree, and yes scripture in and of itself does not determine anything!
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment

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