No Intelligent, Rational Person is for War, Except….

[dizzle]

No intelligent, rational, reasonable, decent person is for war. No intelligent, rational, decent person is for war. But if my father and your fathers didn’t go off to fight World War II, I would have been incinerated in a German concentration camp oven. So I’m very grateful to the guys who didn’t believe in war, but fought it to protect the free world from vile evil. And that is exactly what’s going on now. Militant Islam is vile evil. Every day, they’re blowing up their own people for power. It’s inhuman. And you really believe we shouldn’t stop that?

http://www.drlaura.com/blog/2007/03/12/no-intelligent-rational-person-is-for-war-except/

[Trout]

And you really believe we shouldn’t stop that?

I'm no pacifist, but I believe the pacifist would want to end the threat from any warring element through a peaceful process, not a violent one. :nsm:

Of course the pacifist believes we should stop the violent sects of radical Islam.

[Timothy Leary]

I understand that perspective, but non-violent options are out there as well. The question is which is more effective, and which will result in the best scenario for everyone.

[Amazing Rando]

I understand that perspective, but non-violent options are out there as well. The question is which is more effective, and which will result in the best scenario for everyone.

Rather than asking the question, "which is more effective," I prefer the question "which is more faithful?," both to the heart of the gospel and to the cross of Jesus Christ, for they are the only measures that really matter. Although as John Howard Yoder has pointed out, ultimately the faithful road is the most effective road, for it is the faithful road that God vindicates through the peculiar power of the kingdom, of which the resurrection is the firstfruits.

I have no real beef with this piece, for it doesn't impact Christian ethics in any way and makes no claims to. Dr. Laura (1.) not a Christian, (2.)doesn't make any biblical arguments in this piece, and (3.) the topic is addressed from an entirely secular, emotional perspective that anyone, be they Christian or atheist, or muslim, or whoever, could discuss without faith convictions being brought out into the discussion at all. According to the wisdom of the fallen world which is dying because of its blindness and sin-clouded vision, her emotional appeals make perfect sense. Just don't call it a "Christian" ethic. Since Dr. Laura makes no claims to be a Christian disciple and a member of God's kingdom, I can see nothing really wrong with it, though I do think that due to the nonbiblical nature of the piece that it might better be discussed in a different forum than Biblical Ethics.

[shadowmaster]

I'm no pacifist, but I believe the pacifist would want to end the threat from any warring element through a peaceful process, not a violent one. :nsm:

Of course the pacifist believes we should stop the violent sects of radical Islam.


Shadowmaster thinks thatalmost everyone, not just pacifists, would prefer a peaceful process. Do you know one that could work with the violent sects of radical Islam?

[dizzle]

I have this weird idea that Christians should discuss the ideas and comments of non-Christians amongst ourselves in a Biblical paradigm. I am just one wild and crazy girl.

That is the intent. In fact I think Dr. Laura does implicitly make a claim to MORALITY and whether or not she claims it is Christian morality or not, she is claiming it is RIGHT morality, thus appropriate to measure up to Biblical ethics.

And it is correct, no one prefers war. That is silly, and arguing that just because war is an option it is the only option. As far as being faithful, it is pretty hard to read the Bible and not see wars as being commanded by God. To condemn it as unethical IMHO is to cast a shadow upon the workings of God. To claim that something changed with Christ in this regard I also do not buy. In fact, I believe it is immoral and wrong NOT to support the death penalty in principle (not necessarily the way it is meted out in our particular countries) and NOT to support a just war. To me THAT is being faithful to the law, holiness, and character of God.

(before anyone gets worked up - I think Christian can mistakenly believe things I don't think are in line with Christian morality - this is not a slam on anyone's salvation etc, ad nauseum. There are Christians who mistakenly hold immoral positions on abortion. There were Christians who held immoral positions on slavery in the antebellum American South. Yes I realize that the early church was pacificist. Yes I argue that they were wrong on that issue. I find complete pacificism to be completely contrary to the whole of Revelation and thus unBiblical. I find pursuing a peaceful option until there are no other options exactly what we should do. Refusing or condemning the death penalty is to speak ill against the rationale for which God commanded it, and thus, disrespect to the price for robbing from the image of God and disrepectful to the person so robbed.)

[Trout]

Shadowmaster thinks thatalmost everyone, not just pacifists, would prefer a peaceful process. Do you know one that could work with the violent sects of radical Islam?

I'm no pacifist, but let me respond:

The pacifist believes that non-violence is the only answer, the pacifist fully trusts that God's will is going to be done and that God can accomplish His will without His church picking up arms and fighting. The pacifist trusts God, he doesn't take matters into his own hands.

In that light; do i think something can work other than Christians taking up arms? Yes.

Do I think it can be done apart from God? No.

God can certainly do it many other ways.

[shadowmaster]

I'm no pacifist, but let me respond:

The pacifist believes that non-violence is the only answer, the pacifist fully trusts that God's will is going to be done and that God can accomplish His will without His church picking up arms and fighting. The pacifist trusts God, he doesn't take matters into his own hands.

In that light; do i think something can work other than Christians taking up arms? Yes.

Do I think it can be done apart from God? No.

God can certainly do it many other ways.

Shadowmaster has mixed emotions about that. To say one will do nothing and just hope and pray that God will solve the problem, does not seem responsible to him. Shadowmaster knows some Christians who were laid off and then did nothing except "depend upon the Lord". Their families suffered enormously until they realized that an effort was required on their part.

Certainly God is a major factor and nothing will happen apart from Him. That, however, is no excuse for doing nothing except being negative towards towards solutions that are unappealing. Pacifism did not prevent WWI or WWII. At the same time it certainly appears as God intervened with the Soviet Union in an unexpected fashion.

A mixed bag of real data. (IHHO)

[Trout]

Shadowmaster has mixed emotions about that. To say one will do nothing and just hope and pray that God will solve the problem, does not seem responsible to him. Shadowmaster knows some Christians who were laid off and then did nothing except "depend upon the Lord". Their families suffered enormously until they realized that an effort was required on their part.

Answering as a pacifist which I am not I don't think your comparison is fair. Taking up arms would be the equivalent of being laid off and taking a job as a prostitute. You would be making a morally wrong choice.

For the pacifist, war is wrong, war is sin. He cannot engage in sin.


Certainly God is a major factor and nothing will happen apart from Him. That, however, is no excuse for doing nothing except being negative towards towards solutions that are unappealing. Pacifism did not prevent WWI or WWII. At the same time it certainly appears as God intervened with the Soviet Union in an unexpected fashion.

A mixed bag of real data. (IHHO)

Mixed indeed.

[technomage]

Militant Islam is vile evil. Every day, they’re blowing up their own people for power. It’s inhuman. And you really believe we shouldn’t stop that?

Case in point:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraqi insurgents used two children as a cover to get through a checkpoint in Baghdad and then blew up the car while the kids were still inside, a U.S. general said Tuesday.Two adults jumped from the car, leaving the children in the back. Moments later, the car exploded, witnesses said.

Cite (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/20/iraq.main/index.html).

[dizzle]

Remember this is a Christian-only area, but as thread starter I have no problems with any posts made and the participation had and as far as I am concerned, such posts within the spirit of the OP may continue.

[technomage]

Remember this is a Christian-only area, but as thread starter I have no problems with any posts made and the participation had and as far as I am concerned, such posts within the spirit of the OP may continue.

Drat! Sowwy. I keep forgetting to see which forum new posts are in.

[Gabby]

The powers that be would like it to be know that Justin and Shadowmaster have obtained permission to post in the Christian only Biblical Ethics Forum thread, "No Intelligent, Rational Person is for War, Except....".

[3kixintehead]

I understand that perspective, but non-violent options are out there as well. The question is which is more effective, and which will result in the best scenario for everyone.

Like what?

[Ecualegacy]

And it is correct, no one prefers war.

For most, that is true. Unfortunately, the power mongers of this world find it very useful. Bin Ladin, Sadaam, Hitler, Stalin, and so on LOVED war. They thought it was a great means to get what they wanted. Well, perhaps in a utlilitarian sense, they would have preferred something quicker and less time consuming. Hmmm. Not so sure about Bin Ladin on that now that I think of it.