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Outis
02-22-2014, 07:23 AM
320

Darth Executor
02-22-2014, 07:33 AM
It worked out great for the Natives, their example should be followed.

One Bad Pig
02-22-2014, 08:22 AM
What happened to the Native Americans was a travesty from beginning to end, with few exceptions.

That said, two wrongs don't make a right.

Also, not sure this belongs here. Opening post does not appear to be intended to provoke serious discussion.

Baldie the Limey
02-22-2014, 10:50 AM
I'm quite sure that their way of life was owed to European explorers anyway. Horses enabled them to develop more, and they warred with each other to the point of extinction at times. Their way of life wasn't all roses and buttercups.

One Bad Pig
02-22-2014, 12:03 PM
I'm quite sure that their way of life was owed to European explorers anyway. Horses enabled them to develop more, and they warred with each other to the point of extinction at times. Their way of life wasn't all roses and buttercups.
Horses were indeed a European import, but their use was quite voluntarily taken up by those tribes which did so (a distinct minority, btw). And yeah, Indian culture has been romanticized quite a bit by those looking back, but just about every culture does that.

Outis
02-22-2014, 12:09 PM
What happened to the Native Americans was a travesty from beginning to end, with few exceptions.

Agreed.


That said, two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't accept the suggestion that immigration without assimilation is intrinsically wrong. It can be workable, it can be unworkable, but I reject the suggestion that there's a hard and fast rule either way.


Also, not sure this belongs here. Opening post does not appear to be intended to provoke serious discussion.

Ye of little faith....

Outis
02-22-2014, 12:13 PM
I'm quite sure that their way of life was owed to European explorers anyway. Horses enabled them to develop more, and they warred with each other to the point of extinction at times. Their way of life wasn't all roses and buttercups.

You may have a distorted understanding of pre-columbian Native culture. You also seem to be over-generalizing. _Some_ Native nations warred to the point of extinction or near extinction. Many did not. It's just like saying "Native Americans were hunter-gatherers"--some were, many were not.

However, my main point is regarding all the angst in some political quarters about immigrants, and not nearly so much about the First Nations.

One Bad Pig
02-22-2014, 12:21 PM
I don't accept the suggestion that immigration without assimilation is intrinsically wrong. It can be workable, it can be unworkable, but I reject the suggestion that there's a hard and fast rule either way.
I agree, there's no hard and fast rule either way (though I would nearly categorically reject demands for complete assimilation). It depends on expectations of the immigrant's destination, IMO. The United States has historically expected a fair amount of assimilation. Japan, on the other hand, does not want you, and will not permit you to assimilate.

Outis
02-22-2014, 12:47 PM
I agree, there's no hard and fast rule either way (though I would nearly categorically reject demands for complete assimilation). It depends on expectations of the immigrant's destination, IMO.

Like so many issues in American politics, there is a wide variety of points of view on that issue. At the most extreme ends, you have (a) those who believe that immigrants should segregate themselves into enclaves with no thought given to education in American culture, or (b) those who believe that immigrants, if allowed at all, should be required to abandon all connection to their ancestral culture and learn English within five years or be returned to their place of origin.

Like so many areas of conflict in American opinion, the best results are half improvise, half compromise, and are generally condemned by many from both extremes.


The United States has historically expected a fair amount of assimilation. Japan, on the other hand, does not want you, and will not permit you to assimilate.

One cannot justly or even sensibly compare immigration cultures without taking into account the cultures themselves. Japan has a culture that is similar to ours only in very few particulars. A comparison, if possible at all, must take into account the differences as well as the similarities.

But yet the argument from some (even from some present here) reminds me of another meme I've seen on the Internet from time to time:

322

seanD
02-22-2014, 12:53 PM
I'm quite sure that their way of life was owed to European explorers anyway. Horses enabled them to develop more, and they warred with each other to the point of extinction at times. Their way of life wasn't all roses and buttercups.

That's a historical misconception typically believed by arrogant westerners ignorant of the history.

Bill the Cat
02-22-2014, 01:05 PM
320

The difference is that the Europeans made no mistake that their intent was conquest. The illegals today have no such ambition. They come to bilk the current system of resources, while the Europeans planned (and succeeded) to replace the existent one. Comparing the two isn't very proper IMHO...

seanD
02-22-2014, 01:12 PM
The difference is that the Europeans made no mistake that their intent was conquest. The illegals today have no such ambition. They come to bilk the current system of resources, while the Europeans planned (and succeeded) to replace the existent one. Comparing the two isn't very proper IMHO...

That's not true. There are radical Mexican groups that do express such conquest.

Outis
02-22-2014, 01:14 PM
They come to bilk the current system of resources, while the Europeans planned (and succeeded) to replace the existent one. Comparing the two isn't very proper IMHO...

Why not? Theft is theft. (And broad-brush generalization is broad-brush generalization.)

Juvenal
02-22-2014, 01:31 PM
"If you want to speak English, go back to England."

Bill the Cat
02-22-2014, 01:35 PM
That's not true. There are radical Mexican groups that do express such conquest.

A very small minority of them. The Europeans' goal was pretty unanimous.

Outis
02-22-2014, 01:36 PM
That's not true. There are radical Mexican groups that do express such conquest.

Drop-in-the-bucket compared to those who emigrate to America, and drop-in-the-ocean compared to those who stay at home.

Bill the Cat
02-22-2014, 01:37 PM
Why not? Theft is theft. (And broad-brush generalization is broad-brush generalization.)

:brood: It's like a cashier skimming from the till versus a hostile corporate takeover of the entire business. They are only comparable in that both are taking something from one party to another.

Outis
02-22-2014, 01:38 PM
"If you want to speak English, go back to England."

Perhaps it should be "Press One for Cherokee, Two for English," of course replacing Cherokee with the language appropriate to the area the office is in.

Bill the Cat
02-22-2014, 01:38 PM
"If you want to speak English, go back to England."

They don't speak Southern, so I'll pass... :teeth:

Outis
02-22-2014, 01:39 PM
:brood: It's like a cashier skimming from the till versus a hostile corporate takeover of the entire business. They are only comparable in that both are taking something from one party to another.

Ah, so the corporate takeover is acceptable because they succeeded, but the skimming cashier is not. Good to have you clarify your stance on that one, Bill. :thumb:

Bill the Cat
02-22-2014, 01:42 PM
Ah, so the corporate takeover is acceptable because they succeeded, but the skimming cashier is not. Good to have you clarify your stance on that one, Bill. :thumb:

Oh, no. I didn't mean to suggest that. What the Europeans did was atrocious, but it is entirely different from what the illegals are doing today. An apple is still a fruit, after all, even when you try to compare it to oranges...

seanD
02-22-2014, 01:44 PM
Drop-in-the-bucket compared to those who emigrate to America, and drop-in-the-ocean compared to those who stay at home.

Pure speculation. You don't know the intent of immigrants anymore than I do. And just to clarify, so as there are no political preconceptions, I personally find the immigrant issue irrelevant politically. What effects it would have culturally I don't know, but anyone with a modicum of economic understanding would know that this is a disaster on America's economy. But I'm of the belief that America is already the sinking titanic economically, so things like immigration reform and Obamacare are just byproducts of that. Just thought I'd clarify that. But your speculation is still just speculation nonetheless.

Outis
02-22-2014, 02:07 PM
Oh, no. I didn't mean to suggest that.

I know, but imprecise grammar left the opening, and I couldn't resist.


What the Europeans did was atrocious, but it is entirely different from what the illegals are doing today. An apple is still a fruit, after all, even when you try to compare it to oranges...

As I tried to point out earlier, this is a broad-brush generalization. Some immigrants come to the US to milk the system, yes. Some do not. Do you anything even resembling hard data on whose doing what, or is it sufficient to you to accuse the whole for the sins of the part?

Outis
02-22-2014, 02:17 PM
Pure speculation. You don't know the intent of immigrants anymore than I do.

Yet you presented your claim as if these people were numerically significant. Tell me, Sean, what percentage of immigrants support a Reconquista?

Baldie the Limey
02-22-2014, 02:23 PM
That's a historical misconception typically believed by arrogant westerners ignorant of the history.

Looks like I better turn in my American History GCSE.

Outis
02-22-2014, 02:25 PM
Looks like I better turn in my American History GCSE.

Yup. Either that or look for better information.

Bill the Cat
02-22-2014, 02:25 PM
I know, but imprecise grammar left the opening, and I couldn't resist.



As I tried to point out earlier, this is a broad-brush generalization. Some immigrants come to the US to milk the system, yes. Some do not. Do you anything even resembling hard data on whose doing what, or is it sufficient to you to accuse the whole for the sins of the part?

Understand that I do not mean to imply that the sole reason is to intentionally bilk the system, but it is a necessary side-effect of their moral justification for breaking US immigration law. Whether their primary goal is to take resources that they are not legally entitled to, the fact remains that a vast majority do just that.

http://asr.sagepub.com/content/78/4/574.abstract

Outis
02-22-2014, 02:45 PM
Understand that I do not mean to imply that the sole reason is to intentionally bilk the system, but it is a necessary side-effect of their moral justification for breaking US immigration law. Whether their primary goal is to take resources that they are not legally entitled to, the fact remains that a vast majority do just that.

http://asr.sagepub.com/content/78/4/574.abstract

Bill, have you actually read the article? The article makes much of the facts that the decision to illegally migrate is based on a complexity of factors, of which "bilking the system" does not appear in the list. Indeed, the article makes quite clear that crime rates for illegal immigrants are lower than for citizens. With the exception of the initial decision to cross the border, immigrants tend to be very law abiding, moral, and work oriented.

I'm not sure how you're making that into "bilking the system."

Darth Xena
02-22-2014, 03:30 PM
Bill, have you actually read the article? The article makes much of the facts that the decision to illegally migrate is based on a complexity of factors, of which "bilking the system" does not appear in the list. Indeed, the article makes quite clear that crime rates for illegal immigrants are lower than for citizens. With the exception of the initial decision to cross the border, immigrants tend to be very law abiding, moral, and work oriented.

I'm not sure how you're making that into "bilking the system."

though it will be verboten to say this, depends upon the origin in many cases. In South Florida for instance, what you said would hold true for Cubans.

Darth Executor
02-22-2014, 03:36 PM
Indeed, the article makes quite clear that crime rates for illegal immigrants are lower than for citizens.

No Idioutis, it says INCARCERATION rates are lower. Probably because most are thrown out of the country. :duh:

Outis
02-22-2014, 03:47 PM
though it will be verboten to say this, depends upon the origin in many cases. In South Florida for instance, what you said would hold true for Cubans.

I don't know why it would be "verboten". There are vast cultural differences between Mexico and Cuba. Indeed, there are cultural differences (not as vast, but present) between Northern Mexico and Central Mexico. I would imagine the poll results would be quite different had they been conducted in Cuba, and I would even hazard that they would be noticeably (but not as significantly) different if the poll had been conducted in Mexico City rather than in border areas.

Epoetker
02-22-2014, 08:37 PM
I have much less interest in how immigration played out in the past than in who supports it today: (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/34028/34028-h/34028-h.htm)


It is an easy and patriotic matter for the lawyer, minister, professor, employer, or investor, placed above the arena of competition, to proclaim the equal right of all races to American opportunities; to avow his own willingness to give way should even a better Chinaman, Hindu, or Turk come in to take his place; and to rebuke the racial hatred of those who resist this displacement. His patriotism and world-wide brotherhood cost him and his family nothing, and indeed they add to his profits and leisure.

Or, in this case, Outis's ghoulishly hateful liberal smugness. Guess he must live in a majority-white district.

And the difference between a corporate takeover and a slow flood of dependents is the same as the difference between declared war and constant, low-level tribal conflict-wars eventually end, a new order is declared and followed, and people no longer have to spend their time, blood, and money worrying about how to survive or finish the conflict, and can so focus on things like art, science, religion, and other hobbies of peace.

Versus in tribal conflict, where the war is your life, and there is nothing else but a constant state of seeking opportunities to get back at whoever your enemy of the day is.

Sort of like in Cleveland today, now that I think about it: (http://stuffblackpeopledontlike.blogspot.com/2014/02/be-all-that-you-can-be-in-army-disabled.html)


Cleveland authorities have made several arrests following the mob beating of a disabled Army veteran by a group of teenagers.

Last Friday, the victim, Matthew Robinson, was surrounded by between six and eight teenagers while riding the RTA Healthline. Robinson told WOIO that he was attacked by the teens, then robbed of his possessions.

During the attack, the teens made several derogatory remarks about Robinson.
“What they were saying was, ‘Knock that boy out!’ ‘White boy.’ ‘Cracker,’” he was quoted as saying about the incident. “They were saying, ‘Knock that white boy out.’”

This week, three suspects – Kenneth Matthews, Ronald Reid Williams and an unnamed 16-year-old girl – were arrested by Cleveland and RTA police. The latter filmed the attack with her cell phone, and was said to still have the video at the time of her apprehension.

Despite the arrests, concern remains as other attacks of a similar nature have happened in the area, most of which are said to have been perpetrated by other young culprits, according to WOIO.

Added Robinson of the danger, “Your mother or sister could be on the bus, and the same thing could happen to them.”

Or Outis the Cripple. Tell me, Outis, given that your sympathies seem to lie with the OPPRESSED MINORITIES, if I saw a group of black thugs about to go all Matthew Robinson on your weak and disabled body, would it be more appropriate to use my very able body and presumed concealed firearms to put a stop to it, or would it be better to allow you to experience that diversity firsthand, as no doubt someone who looked like you did something bad to someone who looked like them sometime in the past? Should I change my response if the gang members were Mexican?

I eagerly await your response.

Bill the Cat
02-23-2014, 05:34 AM
Bill, have you actually read the article?

Yes. That's why I commented on their "moral justification for breaking US immigration law" and the fact that they are consuming resources without putting in to the pool.


The article makes much of the facts that the decision to illegally migrate is based on a complexity of factors, of which "bilking the system" does not appear in the list.

The decision to illegally migrate is only the beginning phase of their illegal occupancy. Once here, they rely on what amounts to bilking the system, such as using the ER with no intention of paying for the bill.


Indeed, the article makes quite clear that crime rates for illegal immigrants are lower than for citizens. With the exception of the initial decision to cross the border, immigrants tend to be very law abiding, moral, and work oriented.

Yet they bilk the system for resources without paying taxes to sustain it.


I'm not sure how you're making that into "bilking the system."

Paprika
02-23-2014, 05:35 AM
320

What goes around comes around.