Obeying God does not save a person from sin. Justification is not received through one's obedience to God. Obeying God is one of the consequences of receiving a new nature, a new heart. Some people claim that if God guarantees that a person will obey God after becoming a Christian, then that person is really saved by his obedience. What do you think about this? I would disagree with the claim that if God guarantees that a person will obey God after he becomes a Christian, then that person is really saved by his obedience. Something can be guaranteed in the life of a Christian without it being the thing that saves him. Obeying God is the natural outcome of being born again; it is neither the cause of salvation nor the means by which salvation is received.
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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God guarantees obedience in the life of the believer
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Originally posted by Jaxb View PostObeying God is one of the consequences of receiving a new nature, a new heart.
Even Paul struggled... "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. If God guaranteed obedience in the life of the believer, Paul wouldn't be so "messed up".
He said very clearly in Romans 6, 7 and 8 that we were once slaves to sin, but are now slaves to Christ. But even a slave can be disobedient. It is that reminder - "that was then, this is now", that inspires us to obedience, and keeps us on the right path.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Jaxb View PostObeying God does not save a person from sin. Justification is not received through one's obedience to God. Obeying God is one of the consequences of receiving a new nature, a new heart. Some people claim that if God guarantees that a person will obey God after becoming a Christian, then that person is really saved by his obedience. What do you think about this? I would disagree with the claim that if God guarantees that a person will obey God after he becomes a Christian, then that person is really saved by his obedience. Something can be guaranteed in the life of a Christian without it being the thing that saves him. Obeying God is the natural outcome of being born again; it is neither the cause of salvation nor the means by which salvation is received.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThis part really stood out to me, and I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, consequence usually denotes a bad result. (though, not by definition. )
Even Paul struggled... "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. If God guaranteed obedience in the life of the believer, Paul wouldn't be so "messed up".
He said very clearly in Romans 6, 7 and 8 that we were once slaves to sin, but are now slaves to Christ. But even a slave can be disobedient. It is that reminder - "that was then, this is now", that inspires us to obedience, and keeps us on the right path.
Paul is not referring to himself in Romans 7 -- rather he is showing how the Law cannot make one righteous by taking on the example of a Jew who tries to live by the Law. (and ultimately fails due to his own sinful passions / flesh)
The giveaway and key to this passage is when Paul says:
Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Remember this is in context of the rest of 6, 7, and 8.
Romans 6:17-18
But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
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Originally posted by phat8594 View PostOoooh....time to derail already?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Jaxb View PostObeying God does not save a person from sin. Justification is not received through one's obedience to God. Obeying God is one of the consequences of receiving a new nature, a new heart. Some people claim that if God guarantees that a person will obey God after becoming a Christian, then that person is really saved by his obedience. What do you think about this? I would disagree with the claim that if God guarantees that a person will obey God after he becomes a Christian, then that person is really saved by his obedience. Something can be guaranteed in the life of a Christian without it being the thing that saves him. Obeying God is the natural outcome of being born again; it is neither the cause of salvation nor the means by which salvation is received.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThis part really stood out to me, and I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, consequence usually denotes a bad result. (though, not by definition. )
Even Paul struggled... "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. If God guaranteed obedience in the life of the believer, Paul wouldn't be so "messed up".
He said very clearly in Romans 6, 7 and 8 that we were once slaves to sin, but are now slaves to Christ. But even a slave can be disobedient. It is that reminder - "that was then, this is now", that inspires us to obedience, and keeps us on the right path.
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Originally posted by Jaxb View PostI was thinking of a consequence in the sense of a good result.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Jaxb View PostObeying God does not save a person from sin. Justification is not received through one's obedience to God. Obeying God is one of the consequences of receiving a new nature, a new heart. Some people claim that if God guarantees that a person will obey God after becoming a Christian, then that person is really saved by his obedience. What do you think about this? I would disagree with the claim that if God guarantees that a person will obey God after he becomes a Christian, then that person is really saved by his obedience. Something can be guaranteed in the life of a Christian without it being the thing that saves him. Obeying God is the natural outcome of being born again; it is neither the cause of salvation nor the means by which salvation is received.Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?
Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.
Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.
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Originally posted by Wildflower View PostIf obedience was guaranteed, why did Paul have to point out the deeds of the flesh and exhort fellow believers not to practice them? Why did he tell fellow believers that committing the deeds of the flesh equates to not inheriting the kingdom? I think the threat of disobedience was real. I think the new heart and nature made choice available, but does not guarantee obedience.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Jaxb View PostI was thinking of a consequence in the sense of a good result.
I had been involved for several years in a church that held sinless perfection, or eradication of the carnal nature, or entire sanctification, or second blessing, whatever you call it. It was a great church, people were coming to the Lord for salvation, or revival. Great preaching. But there was that constant fear that if you did something wrong, if you drifted away, you would lose your salvation until you repented. I had no doubt that the Lord led me there for a while, but when I moved away closer to my job, I went back to a Bible believing Baptist church.Last edited by Faber; 01-04-2016, 08:15 PM.When I Survey....
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There is obedience to God's unmerited favor called grace.
". . . Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." -- 1 Peter 1:2.
". . . In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:8.
". . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:8-10.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Jaxb View PostObeying God does not save a person from sin. Justification is not received through one's obedience to God. Obeying God is one of the consequences of receiving a new nature, a new heart. Some people claim that if God guarantees that a person will obey God after becoming a Christian, then that person is really saved by his obedience. What do you think about this? I would disagree with the claim that if God guarantees that a person will obey God after he becomes a Christian, then that person is really saved by his obedience. Something can be guaranteed in the life of a Christian without it being the thing that saves him. Obeying God is the natural outcome of being born again; it is neither the cause of salvation nor the means by which salvation is received.
Would a person not really be born again if he thought that he could lose his salvation through disobedience?
I would say that obeying God comes from the human will, our choice, which hopefully acts together with the grace of God in us, cooperate with grace. All Christians have that grace, but not all respond the same to it. It is easy for me to respond correctly to some things, but other things I have to work on. Those things I have to train myself to resist the sin and temptation. No matter how one views justification, he still has to work on himself.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThis part really stood out to me, and I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, consequence usually denotes a bad result. (though, not by definition. )
Even Paul struggled... "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. If God guaranteed obedience in the life of the believer, Paul wouldn't be so "messed up".
He said very clearly in Romans 6, 7 and 8 that we were once slaves to sin, but are now slaves to Christ. But even a slave can be disobedient. It is that reminder - "that was then, this is now", that inspires us to obedience, and keeps us on the right path.
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Originally posted by phat8594 View PostWhere do you get that God guarantees the obedience of a believer? I think that is the better question.
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