Ethanol

[Meh_Gerbil]

Am I the only person who thinks converting food to fuel is perhaps the best indication that we have a suicidal addiction to automobiles?

I heard a guy on the radio the other day who claimed we could create all this fuel without interupting food supplies. I don't see how we can produce billions of gallons of fuel without causing the prices of bread and meat to go up - is this really the direction we want to take the battle?

Isn't it bad enough that the fuel I purchase has to come from the middle east - do I have to starve a bunch of Mexicans now or what? Please, oh please let me pay $5 a gallon before we raise the price of bread for poor Mexicans by 25% - for heaven's sake, can we stop this nonsense already?

How about this plan: Let the free market determine the cost of fuel (whatever the Arabs wanna raise the price to is fine by me) and let it alone already.

[$cirisme]

I don't really think the ethanol thing is workable anyway. :shrug:

[Trout]

The ethanol thing is jacking up the price of corn through the roof.

I'm sick of it, corn futures are at TEN stinking dollars, a couple years ago you could buy all the corn you wanted for half that.

[Abelard]

How about this plan: Let the free market determine the cost of fuel (whatever the Arabs wanna raise the price to is fine by me) and let it alone already.

Establishing ethanol as more than an novelty market could help eliminate the price supports that keep corn and oil artificially high.

Just think of all those acres now in CRP being used to add supply to the energy market. Think of the economic effect of thousands of small, clean distilleries producing ethanol near the point of purchase instead of a few dirty refineries incurring excessive distribution costs and subsequent environmental hazards.

[Trout]

Establishing ethanol as more than an novelty market could help eliminate the price supports that keep corn and oil artificially high.

The market had a knee-jerk reaction to the impending ethanol craze. There'll be thousands more acres of corn planted this year, and a subsequent downturn in the corn prices when the ethanol thing doesn't pan out. IMO.

Sunflowers are being grown where I'm at to supply a new bio-diesel plant. They have more oil that's easier to extract, so I'm told.

But there are hundreds of combines burned to the ground trying to harvest sunflowers every year.



Just think of all those acres now in CRP being used to add supply to the energy market. Think of the economic effect of thousands of small, clean distilleries producing ethanol near the point of purchase instead of a few dirty refineries incurring excessive distribution costs and subsequent environmental hazards.

I'm excited about that prospect at least here locally.

[Crow]

Isn't it bad enough that the fuel I purchase has to come from the middle east - do I have to starve a bunch of Mexicans now or what? Please, oh please let me pay $5 a gallon before we raise the price of bread for poor Mexicans by 25% - for heaven's sake, can we stop this nonsense already?
.

If the past is any indication of the future, rising energy costs are going to also raise the price of bread for poor Mexicans. Corn is grown using petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides and planted, tilled, harvested, and transported using petro fueled machinery. Heck, those Mexicans won't even get jobs out of it because field corn production is almost entirely mechanized. Poor folks bread and everyone else's will go up if we go the 5 buck a gallon route too.

I dunno what to make of it. Long term I'd say major creation of nuclear electric plants and switch over to electric powered or primarily electric powered vehicles, but I'm just thinking out loud here. I'm sure someone will come along and tell me what a horrible idea that is and they might even be right. In the meantime, I don't know how much of a difference ethanol vs gas is really going to make. There's a petroleum cost associated with putting land into tillage and maintaining it that way which I don't generally see factored in when this stuff is discussed. I'm thinking that we might be saving a little on the oil by going ethanol, but it's not a cure.

Presently corn is so cheap that people are burining it in pellet stoves to heat their houses, I kid you not. If it costs more to produce and transport because oil goes up, the price rises. If it costs more because the demand goes up, well, it just costs more because of supply and demand. Until we decide it's worth our while to find other ways to get our energy, we're stuck, and no one but me seems to like nuclear, or so it feels when I'm feeling unappreciated and sorry for myself. Anyway, we're all screwed. No one's happy except Eturnal because he can say it's a sign of the last days. No point me worrying about it. Might as well have a drink and watch TV.

[Ryokan]

Am I the only person who thinks converting food to fuel is perhaps the best indication that we have a suicidal addiction to automobiles? Its not really a good analogy. Yeah, America's more dependant on cars than Europe. But this is a population density and cultural thing.


I heard a guy on the radio the other day who claimed we could create all this fuel without interupting food supplies. I don't see how we can produce billions of gallons of fuel without causing the prices of bread and meat to go up - is this really the direction we want to take the battle?Well, the cold truth isright now there is not nearly enough ethanol to do that, and given the ease of growing corn and sugar, I doubt it would significantly effect food prices. Especially since a reduction in the use of oil for cars would lower the price for oil used in fertilizer.


Isn't it bad enough that the fuel I purchase has to come from the middle east - do I have to starve a bunch of Mexicans now or what? Please, oh please let me pay $5 a gallon before we raise the price of bread for poor Mexicans by 25% - for heaven's sake, can we stop this nonsense already? Don't worry Gerbs, its not gonna be like that.

[Tickle Me Mercury]

How about this plan: Let the free market determine the cost of fuel (whatever the Arabs wanna raise the price to is fine by me) and let it alone already.

Oh wouldn't that be a novel idea.

[Rubia Warren]

Last week at a Meijer here in Indiana, the price of beef was very high. There was a sign above it on the wall blaming corn prices & ethanol for them. I dunno if their sign is true or not.

I am glad I bought several slabs of new york strips a few months ago from a local country butcher for under 3 bucks a pound and stuck them in the deep freeze.

Looks like the cookouts will be at my house this summer, guys. Bring the poor mexicans too if you want. They might need the protein. :nsm:

[Conductor42]

Gerbil, I love.............................. what you said. :smile:

[Rubia Warren]

It is often reported that one effect of NAFTA is that it is putting small mexican corn farmers out of business. A typical story on that can be found here:http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/01/eveningnews/main1773839.shtml

If that is true, then while immediately the price of tortillas rise because US corn is jumping in price due to ethanol but doesn't that mean that it opens up an opportunity for mexican farmers to grow corn again that could be used for tortillas?

[Ryokan]

It is often reported that one effect of NAFTA is that it is putting small mexican corn farmers out of business. A typical story on that can be found here:http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/01/eveningnews/main1773839.shtml

If that is true, then while immediately the price of tortillas rise because US corn is jumping in price due to ethanol but doesn't that mean that it opens up an opportunity for mexican farmers to grow corn again that could be used for tortillas?

Or ethanol. Nafta clobbered Mexican farmers, largely because American farmers are heavily subsidized in a way Mexican farmers aren't.

[themuzicman]

The US overproduces so much corn, that the price was at the point where farmers couldn't afford to reap their crops. The US Government was paying farmers NOT to produce.

Ethanol should provide some relief from that problem, and allow the federal government to let up on paying people not to plant.

Yes, the price will go up some, but I think things will moderate as the government (painfully slow as it is) gets its act together.

And farmers will produce again.

Michael

[Rubia Warren]

Just seemed to me like it would make mexican farmers happy because they could get in the market again. :nsm:

[apostoli]

Hi Meh_Gerbil,


Am I the only person who thinks converting food to fuel is perhaps the best indication that we have a suicidal addiction to automobiles?

I heard a guy on the radio the other day who claimed we could create all this fuel without interupting food supplies. I don't see how we can produce billions of gallons of fuel without causing the prices of bread and meat to go up - is this really the direction we want to take the battle?It has been a big debate in my country (Australia) also. However, the reality is that our industry and communications are dependent on fuel and worldwide oil stocks are dwindling. Nuclear isn't an option until someone figures out a way to dispose of the waste and other options such as coal are too polluting to be considered as a long term solution (in WWII there was an adaption to allow cars to run on coal. In my country most electricity is produced from coal powered turbines).

We have a show on TV for farmers called Landline and recently there was a segment on feed and farmer worries concerning the price going up as production heads owards biofuels. The interesting thing is that ethanol can be produced from many crops, and one of those is a major feed crop (forget which one). But! It turns out that after extracting the active ingredient, the feed is better for cattle etc once the alcahol is extracted. So rather than feed prices going up, they might actually come down because of increased production and the feed will be better. Ironic isn't it!

Here is a sample article from Landline...
http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2006/s1679589.htm

To quote the intro...

When Henry Ford's Model T rolled off the assembly line at the beginning of the 20th Century, he had planned to fuel the cars with ethanol, made from corn and potato starch provided by American farmers. Rudolph Diesel's internal combustion engine was designed to run on peanut oil. But a cheaper fuel came on the market - a by-product from the oil industry called gasoline, and the rest, as they say, is history. Every year, more cars, tractors, planes, buses, trucks and factories combine to burn up more of the world's finite oil resources. Global consumption is just over 83 million barrels a day, which means every month, the world chews through a volume of oil almost equal to that of Sydney Harbour, and that figure is growing all the time.

[Conductor42]

The US overproduces so much corn, that the price was at the point where farmers couldn't afford to reap their crops.

So in other words, because our farmers are being stupid, the govt needs to steal money from us and give it to them. Just brilliant, I tell you.

[bridgeforsale]

Am I the only person who thinks converting food to fuel is perhaps the best indication that we have a suicidal addiction to automobiles?

I heard a guy on the radio the other day who claimed we could create all this fuel without interupting food supplies. I don't see how we can produce billions of gallons of fuel without causing the prices of bread and meat to go up - is this really the direction we want to take the battle?

Isn't it bad enough that the fuel I purchase has to come from the middle east - do I have to starve a bunch of Mexicans now or what? Please, oh please let me pay $5 a gallon before we raise the price of bread for poor Mexicans by 25% - for heaven's sake, can we stop this nonsense already?

How about this plan: Let the free market determine the cost of fuel (whatever the Arabs wanna raise the price to is fine by me) and let it alone already.

I've definitely heard your concern echoed by others, while I'm no expert on ethanol I think your view takes somewhat of a shortsighted outlook. All indicators say that the future of ethanol (if there is one) will be in cellulose ethanol. That is ethanol composed from stronger fibers like switch grass (which is the old US prairy grass). Switch grass grows upwards of 10 feet tall and is much more efficient than corn. In fact there are cellulose ethanol plants being built in Canada and Spain now (and I think some smaller demonstration plants have already shown success).

Moreover, there is much going on with shale oil & oil from tar sands in Alberta Canada (who is already our leading supplier of oil). Hopefully all of these things will come together to take the pressure off of our food stocks. However, ethanol has become so profitable for corn producers that government subsidies will probably be eliminated in the near future. My concern is what happens to corn production after ethanol? We're already moving toward more efficient cars, hydrogen is probably a mere few decades away; and when the bottom drops out of ethanol family farms will be in big trouble (and perhaps big farming will take over the already dismal number of family farms). Moreover, another little discussed element in this whole thing is genetic crops. We can probably go along way with gentech in farming to boost output for ethanol. However, I'm pulling for cellulose ethanol in the near term since it's near neutral in greenhouse gases (the switchgrass almost inhales as much carbon dioxide as the cars it will fuel emits), we will avert any possible future crisis in farming, and mainly pressure on food supplies would cease to be a concern.. Anyway, just some thoughts.

AW