Revolt against abortion in the UK

[dizzle]

doctors are refusing to be involved in carrying out the procedure. The exodus of doctors prepared to perform the task is a nationwide phenomenon that threatens to plunge the abortion service into chaos, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) has warned.

source (http://michellemalkin.com/archives/007312.htm)

Yeah! Revolt against a revolting practice

[shadowmaster]

doctors are refusing to be involved in carrying out the procedure. The exodus of doctors prepared to perform the task is a nationwide phenomenon that threatens to plunge the abortion service into chaos, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) has warned.

source (http://michellemalkin.com/archives/007312.htm)

Yeah! Revolt against a revolting practice

Will the USA follow?

[SteveF]

Here is the original article:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article2452408.ece

The RCOG have released a statement:

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) recognises that abortion is an essential part of women's healthcare services and adequate investment and workforce is essential.

The RCOG is aware of the slow but growing problem of trainees opting out of training in the termination of pregnancy and is therefore concerned about the abortion service of the future.

The RCOG recognises that it is an important right for any doctor to object to performing abortion. The future of the sexual healthcare services requires careful workforce planning in order for abortion services to be available to the women who need it most.

Most woman find the decision to go forward for termination very difficult and it is essential that there is a trained and sympathetic workforce to help in this aspect of woman's health.

The RCOG also believes that proper education and use of contraceptives are essential to prevent unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted infections. Likewise, it is crucial that our family planning and gynaecological services have the suitable investment and funding needed to offer an appropriate service.

http://www.rcog.org.uk/index.asp?PageID=1918

I find this to be rather interesting, assuming it to be accurate. The anti-abortion movement is far less prominent than it is in the US, and we are a considerably less religious country, yet there appears to be a growing trend within the medical profession against it.

In the wider populace, abortion still seems to be supported, although changing the time limit is not unpopular:

http://www.abortionreview.org/index.php/site/article/104/

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=21554

[dizzle]

Will the USA follow?

In some ways it has, but not apparently as much. There are areas, particularly in the south, where there isn't an abortion provider for miles and miles. Also in the original article it mentions how being an abortionist is not necessarily considered honourable - that is definitely the case here as well, at least in my area of the country. No one would be proud of it and it isn't bragging rights for any woman to say "oh my husband is an abortionist."

[mossrose]

I am thankful that my doctor refuses to do abortions.

There was only one doctor in our town who did them, and he had retired for quite some time because he had HIV. He was killed in an accident a couple of years ago on a vacation in Mexico, so as far as I know there are none here now who will do them. So, they have to go to the Big City if they want one.

:yipee:


I have a very good friend in town who was a nurse for many years at our hospital. She lost her position as surgical nurse because she refused to assist with abortions. Take a stand for life, pay the consequences.

[Meta Knight]

In some ways it has, but not apparently as much. There are areas, particularly in the south, where there isn't an abortion provider for miles and miles.
Unfortunately, that doesn't carry over to the north.

Heck, there's an abortion clinic not a mile from my house that performs upwards of 75,000 abortions a year.

It's next to a doctor's office.

And, like, two blocks away from the hospital.

[Sheepdog]

And, like, two blocks away from the hospital.

very convenient for when things go wrong.


not if. when.

[SteveF]

FYI:

The number of abortions carried out in England and Wales rose by 3.9% to 193,700 in 2006. There was also a rise in the under-16 abortion rate, to 3.9 per 1,000 women, and among under-18s to 18.2 per 1,000.

Abortion has been steadily increasing since it was legalised 40 years ago - there were 22,000 terminations in 1968. The Royal College of Obstetricians said the rise was "disappointing" and showed a failure to deal with the problem of unplanned pregnancies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6765953.stm

[brother vinny]

There was only one doctor in our town who did them, and he had retired for quite some time because he had HIV. He was killed in an accident a couple of years ago on a vacation in Mexico. . ..

There's gotta be some sort of poetic justice in all this.

[Jnthn]

We've got a lot of student doctors in my fellowship, and they're coming up on if not actually on the phase of their studies when they go to abortion clinics. I've not talked with them in any detail on the matter - something I'd be hesitant to do for fear of coming across as pat - but I can tell they're troubled by this. Prayers would be welcome!

J

[Jimmy Higgins]

Unfortunately, that doesn't carry over to the north.

Heck, there's an abortion clinic not a mile from my house that performs upwards of 75,000 abortions a year.Yeah. I've got to call you on this "statistic". 75,000? What is it a factory?

Assuming that the place was open 24 hours a day, everyday of the year, including Christmas, that'd be about 9 abortions an hour.

Assuming more realistically the place is open 12 hours a day, open 6 days a week, that'd be 20 abortions an hour.

That statistic is a hoax.

[themuzicman]

Do you have proof of that Jimmy?

[Pilgrim]

Can doctor's be required to perform an abortion? I mean, other than as a life saving measure?

[Pilgrim]

Do you have proof of that Jimmy?

I don't know MM, the math alone is a common sense indicator that the numbers are exaggerated. Don't you think? I mean come on, 12 hours a day, 6 days a week = 9 abortions an hour.

When I googled "duration of abortion procedure" the results seemed to indicate that an hour visit for an abortion was a very short time. That would mean 9 doctors on staff with the supporting professionals for each procedure. That seems a little unrealistic.

On a very sad note this was the number one return on Google: http://www.earlyprivate.com/?gclid=CJn98vK-6IwCFQeHgQodUUYn0A It made me cry. The tag line from the top of the site is: "I never knew it could be so simple." My heart is breaking.

[themuzicman]

Remember that there are about 1.3 million abortions per year in the US. That's about 3,000 per day, 148 per hour, for 24 hours, 296 per hour for 12 hours, and that's 7 days a week.

So, one clinic operating at 9 abortions per hour in 32 cities, 7 days per week.

That's not wholly accurate, since abortions happen in various places, but they're going to be far more centered in the big cities than small towns.

And there's a reason PP clinics are called "Abortion mills."

I think one thing that is lost in the debate is that abortions aren't "rare." I mean, 300 per hour is a HUGE number, and that assumes 12 hours/day, 7 days/wk.

Michael

[Teallaura]

Um, guys, just because the patient should expect to be there more than an hour does not mean the doctor will take an hour to perform the procedure. I don't know if the stat is correct or not but you don't have sufficient info to really make the call - how big is this clinic, anyway?


Edit: I take it back -the stat is perfectly plausable. Look at the link Pilgrim gave - aspiration in as little as five minutes? We've been assuming D&E's but any procedure or drug which provides the 'service' counts.

[Meta Knight]

Yeah. I've got to call you on this "statistic". 75,000? What is it a factory?

Assuming that the place was open 24 hours a day, everyday of the year, including Christmas, that'd be about 9 abortions an hour.

Assuming more realistically the place is open 12 hours a day, open 6 days a week, that'd be 20 abortions an hour.

That statistic is a hoax.
My mistake. I forget where I got that number (it's been awhile since I posted that), but the actual number was 10,000. But it closed after something went awry with one patient.

[SteveF]

Can doctor's be required to perform an abortion? I mean, other than as a life saving measure?

In the UK, I think the situation is that doctors can refuse, but they must provide the patient with a reference for a doctor that will (or at least another doctor).

[Teallaura]

Doctors can refuse here in the US.

[themuzicman]

If I had to refer, I'd refer them to the abortionist that was as far away as possible from my office.

[Meta Knight]

That's not wholly accurate, since abortions happen in various places, but they're going to be far more centered in the big cities than small towns.
Michael

That's true, but I don't live in a big city. I live in a city of about 30,000.

[themuzicman]

I betcha that's the only clinic for quite a distance, and you're drawing in people from towns near and far.

Maybe you should put in a $1000 tax/abortion.

Muz

[Meta Knight]

I betcha that's the only clinic for quite a distance, and you're drawing in people from towns near and far.

Maybe you should put in a $1000 tax/abortion.

Muz
I'm sure. Though I'm sure the biggest city near me--New York--has a few of its own.

[SteveF]

If I had to refer, I'd refer them to the abortionist that was as far away as possible from my office.

Given that the UK is smaller than Texas, that really isn't very far. Basically, if you want an abortion, you can get one.

[Jimmy Higgins]

Do you have proof of that Jimmy?Only common sense and sunflash's concession below.
Remember that there are about 1.3 million abortions per year in the US. That's about 3,000 per day, 148 per hour, for 24 hours, 296 per hour for 12 hours, and that's 7 days a week.
You obviously don't have a good grasp on magnitudes. 3000 abortions per day, that's an approximate 60 per state per day. So on average, about 8 abortions occur in each state each hour during the work week. You can double the number for biggish states. 16 abortions an hour. This would seemingly dismiss the 75,000 abortions a year at a single place. But somehow you think your analysis supported it.

Edit: I take it back -the stat is perfectly plausable. Look at the link Pilgrim gave - aspiration in as little as five minutes? We've been assuming D&E's but any procedure or drug which provides the 'service' counts.That's egregiously misleading though. Someone says abortion, people think of a medical procedure not The Pill.

My mistake. I forget where I got that number (it's been awhile since I posted that), but the actual number was 10,000. But it closed after something went awry with one patient.That number is high, but certainly within the realm of possibility.

[Cynic Sage]

There's gotta be some sort of poetic justice in all this.

Wow! That was kind of Falwellian of you, Vinny. :twitch:

[RumTumTugger]

Edit: I take it back -the stat is perfectly plausable. Look at the link Pilgrim gave - aspiration in as little as five minutes? We've been assuming D&E's but any procedure or drug which provides the 'service' counts.
That's egregiously misleading though. Someone says abortion, people think of a medical procedure not The Pill.

The Pill is an abortifant. If people are being mislead it isn't by those of us who point that fact out.

Yep the pro-aborts sure know how to mislead people, don't they? :pot:

[Jimmy Higgins]

The Pill is an abortifant. If people are being mislead it isn't by those of us who point that fact out.
Yep the pro-aborts sure know how to mislead people, don't they? :pot:Many people don't put The Pill and surgical abortion as equals. That has nothing to do with misleading, many people simply don't agree as to the comparison. Every month a person uses The Pill doesn't mean a fetus was aborted.

[Teallaura]

Many people don't put The Pill and surgical abortion as equals. That has nothing to do with misleading, many people simply don't agree as to the comparison. Every month a person uses The Pill doesn't mean a fetus was aborted.
Frankly, I'm just as happy to be wrong (as demonstrated by Sunflash's correction) but as far as the stats go an abortion is an abortion so if you are counting abortions without categorizing them then abortifacients would be counted in the figures. It's irrelevant what people think of as an abortion - abortifacients met the definition and would be counted.

The BC pill itself although it can be an abortifacient would not be counted since that was not the reason it was prescribed. You do realize an abortifacient actually causes an abortion rather than merely preventing conception, right? The BC pill isn't what I was getting at - RU84 is.

[Jimmy Higgins]

The BC pill itself although it can be an abortifacient would not be counted since that was not the reason it was prescribed. You do realize an abortifacient actually causes an abortion rather than merely preventing conception, right? The BC pill isn't what I was getting at - RU84 is.That issue depends on who you talk to. Some feel "The Pill" is an abortion because one of the mechanisms is to retard implantation of a fertilized egg into the Uterean wall. So BC or Plan B is considered an abortion by some people. Being able to tell where certain people draw these lines becomes difficult.

I can easily understand why someone would consider RU-84 an abortion drug.

[Teallaura]

That issue depends on who you talk to. Some feel "The Pill" is an abortion because one of the mechanisms is to retard implantation of a fertilized egg into the Uterean wall. So BC or Plan B is considered an abortion by some people. Being able to tell where certain people draw these lines becomes difficult.

I can easily understand why someone would consider RU-84 an abortion drug.For statistical purposes it really doesn't matter - RU-84 isn't used for anything else; BC pills are prescribed for contraception. You go with the reason for the prescription, not the possible side effects.

Also, you're confusing BC pills with Morning After pills - the incidence of abortion with the latter is believed to be much higher, hence the opposition being much greater.

[Jimmy Higgins]

For statistical purposes it really doesn't matter - RU-84 isn't used for anything else; BC pills are prescribed for contraception. You go with the reason for the prescription, not the possible side effects.

Also, you're confusing BC pills with Morning After pills - the incidence of abortion with the latter is believed to be much higher, hence the opposition being much greater.I'm not confusing anything, merely speaking what I've been told by Pro-Birthers. I even think there are people at TWeb that would disagree with your stance that typical Birth Control pills aren't abortifacients.

[Teallaura]

I didn't say that, Jimmy - I said they aren't prescribed as abortifacients and therefore wouldn't be counted in abortion figures - unlike RU-84. In point of fact I already said they can be abortifacients.

[SteveF]

Another update in the ongoing abortion debate in the UK:

Doctors have called for a relaxation of the rules to allow women quicker access to abortions in early pregnancy.

The British Medical Association conference backed a motion calling for abortions to be approved by just one doctor, rather than the current two.

The call only covers terminations in the first trimester, effectively the first three months of pregnancy.

However, the Department of Health said there were no plans to modify the current legislation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6242382.stm

[Raphael]

Hmmmmm. In South Africa things are a little different.

By law the clinics (normal medical clinics, not a specific abortion only clinic) are not allowed to refuse to do an abortion. Irrespective of age. Girls as young as 12 years are having multiple abortions, without parental consent, and there is no legal way the nurses can refuse.

In many places in South Africa abortion is used as the only method of birth control. These girls will often travel many kilometres (some of them walking) to a clinic that is not local (so they won't be found out and shame the family) in order to have an abortion. There is no counselling, no painkillers are given.

This information is from a documentary on the Special Assignment current affairs program on SABC TV. The documentary was called Silent Cries. Details here: http://www.sabcnews.com/specialassignment/20061114.html
My wife and I were crying while watching Silent Cries especially when they showed the nurse carries out the remains of that precious child in a stainless steel bucket and dump it into a whole in the ground where they put their biological waste.

Also many children are using their pregnancies (yes children are pregnant) in order to get health care grants. Here is the transcript of one documentary dealing with it (caution some graphic terms are used):
http://www.sabcnews.com/specialassignment/20060725bscript.html