Father Forgive Them...

[Dee Dee Warren]

I have permission to post in full from my friend Uri's blog

http://apologus.notsorry.net/2007/04/24/forgive-them-for-they-know-not-what-they-do/

Note: Tim has written a few thoughts on those final words of our Lord from the cross. His exegesis is precise in my estimation and may help answer some difficult questions.

By Tim Gallant

On a forum recently, another Christian suggested that, in line with Jesus’ example, Christians ought to forgive the person who committed the killings at Virginia Tech, and pray that he could enter the kingdom of heaven.

I’d say that’s a somewhat simplistic application, for numerous reasons:

1) Jesus’ prayer (and Stephen’s later, in imitation) had to do with people who were sinning against Himself, not others. It is not my place to forgive somebody who harms you; that would be presumptuous on my part.

2) Jesus’ own prayer is not a plea that those who killed Him enter the kingdom of heaven.

3) It should be noted that the situation with Jesus Himself is considerably more complex than is often recognized. The Greek term translated “forgive” there literally has the idea of “leave alone” and is employed elsewhere in the Gospels in Jesus’ parable about the barren fig tree (Luke 13.6-9). The owner says “Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?” (The cutting-down theme is an extension of John the Baptist’s earlier warning that the ax was already laid at the root of the trees, and those not bearing good fruit would be cut down and thrown into the fire; see e.g. Lk 3.9.) But the vinedresser begs the owner to “forgive” (leave alone, 13.8 ) the tree this year also, and he will dig around it, fertilize it etc; after that, if it doesn’t bear fruit, the owner can then cut it down (13.9). The forgiveness of the tree is not a dismissal of responsibility, but a temporary (but valuable!) reprieve.

The point with Jesus’ prayer of forgiveness is that, by rights, judgment should have descended immediately upon those who rejected and killed Him (and in particular, the official leadership of Jerusalem), but He grants them space for repentance. That space is a generation; Jesus Himself warns that Jerusalem will be destroyed because she did not recognize her visitation by her Messiah and Lord (Luke 19.43-44). (The city was destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70.)

On a more general level, Jesus’ example is emphatically not one of dismissal of justice for the sake of universal forgiveness for all. By that standard, every evil man and Satan himself would all be ultimately forgiven. But the Bible doesn’t teach that; to the contrary, it warns that all will stand before God and receive recompense for what they have done in the body.

A complete biblical position therefore involves not just Jesus’ words on the cross (which are indeed very significant and important); it places those words in context, and also recognizes their harmony with other biblical passages (such as Rom 13, which says that the ruling authorities “bear the sword” for the purpose of executing justice).

[Soyeong]

1) Jesus’ prayer (and Stephen’s later, in imitation) had to do with people who were sinning against Himself, not others. It is not my place to forgive somebody who harms you; that would be presumptuous on my part.
While most of us were not directly sinned against, many of us felt anger about what had happed. Through forgiving, we are giving up out right to ever get angry about it again.

[Storico]

While most of us were not directly sinned against, many of us felt anger about what had happed. Through forgiving, we are giving up out right to ever get angry about it again.

If we're angry, and we have a problem with that anger, maybe we should ask God to deliver us from that anger, and to show us how to instead help those who are hurting. I was thinking about this earlier, and in another thread I said the same thing.... is this ours to forgive? Was it done to us, or to the kids at V-Tech? Was it done as the shooter made a mockery of our name and creation, or was it done as the shooter made a mockery of God's name and his creation?

I know some of us feel anger. Maybe what we're forgiving isn't the actual shooter, but the situation we're in, in the world today, where we feel out of control and helpless when someone takes a gun to school so that they can use it against others. If anything, maybe we should put our hurt and anger and bewilderment to the best use possible, and ask how we can turn it into something that'll console people and bring healing. That's probably the most constructive way I can think of, anyway.

The problem with forgiving what isn't ours to forgive is that it is presumptuous. Would we be able to meet a family that lost their son or daughter, and tell them "I've forgiven your daughter/son's killer"? Probably not. They'd ask you why you'd taken it on yourself to forgive that. What I'd like to say, though, is that we can pray for those families. We can pray that THEIR forgiveness and peace comes to them, so that they can feel the release and the relief they need. Maybe we can reach out to them in practical ways, with cards and emails and messages of hope, so that we help them see that there just might be something to forgive. We don't always have to be the ones forgiving to make forgiveness our way of life.

I'd like to share my favourite hymn here: it's called 'Peace Prayer'. http://www.signpostmusic.com/bell/lyrics/simple/peaceprayer.htm

[Genesius]

Forgiveness does not mean approval, or even that there should be no punishment for the act committed. Forgiveness that the Lord speaks of is a spritual forgiveness, one that leads to peace and understanding. It is a forgiveness of the individual not of his actions. We are asked to forgive everyone, even our enemies. Of course everyone has heard of Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Everyone has different abilities to forgive, some can do so more and better than others. The Lord knows the heart.

The exegesis is correct in stating that justice must be done. But what we see as justice is far off from what God sees as justice. We want to repay an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, the Lord searches for mercy and forgiveness. If someone would want to pray for this man's forgiveness, I think this is the best thing, but God will be just.

[Pilgrim]

I have permission to post in full from my friend Uri's blog

http://apologus.notsorry.net/2007/04/24/forgive-them-for-they-know-not-what-they-do/

Note: Tim has written a few thoughts on those final words of our Lord from the cross. His exegesis is precise in my estimation and may help answer some difficult questions.

By Tim Gallant

On a forum recently, another Christian suggested that, in line with Jesus’ example, Christians ought to forgive the person who committed the killings at Virginia Tech, and pray that he could enter the kingdom of heaven.

I’d say that’s a somewhat simplistic application, for numerous reasons:

1) Jesus’ prayer (and Stephen’s later, in imitation) had to do with people who were sinning against Himself, not others. It is not my place to forgive somebody who harms you; that would be presumptuous on my part.

2) Jesus’ own prayer is not a plea that those who killed Him enter the kingdom of heaven.

3) It should be noted that the situation with Jesus Himself is considerably more complex than is often recognized. The Greek term translated “forgive” there literally has the idea of “leave alone” and is employed elsewhere in the Gospels in Jesus’ parable about the barren fig tree (Luke 13.6-9). The owner says “Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?” (The cutting-down theme is an extension of John the Baptist’s earlier warning that the ax was already laid at the root of the trees, and those not bearing good fruit would be cut down and thrown into the fire; see e.g. Lk 3.9.) But the vinedresser begs the owner to “forgive” (leave alone, 13.8 ) the tree this year also, and he will dig around it, fertilize it etc; after that, if it doesn’t bear fruit, the owner can then cut it down (13.9). The forgiveness of the tree is not a dismissal of responsibility, but a temporary (but valuable!) reprieve.

The point with Jesus’ prayer of forgiveness is that, by rights, judgment should have descended immediately upon those who rejected and killed Him (and in particular, the official leadership of Jerusalem), but He grants them space for repentance. That space is a generation; Jesus Himself warns that Jerusalem will be destroyed because she did not recognize her visitation by her Messiah and Lord (Luke 19.43-44). (The city was destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70.)

On a more general level, Jesus’ example is emphatically not one of dismissal of justice for the sake of universal forgiveness for all. By that standard, every evil man and Satan himself would all be ultimately forgiven. But the Bible doesn’t teach that; to the contrary, it warns that all will stand before God and receive recompense for what they have done in the body.

A complete biblical position therefore involves not just Jesus’ words on the cross (which are indeed very significant and important); it places those words in context, and also recognizes their harmony with other biblical passages (such as Rom 13, which says that the ruling authorities “bear the sword” for the purpose of executing justice).

This piece, while very thought provoking does not do the job of contextualization it asks others to do. For instance, Christ not only forgives Saul for his murderous assault on the newly established "Way" but goes one step further entrusting to Paul the message of the Gospel to be delivered to the unbelievers. Clearly Paul was not only sinning against Christ himself but in his pursuit and persecution of early Christians was sinning against ordinary folks.

And so I agree with the author, the answer is not that simple. Indeed, not as simply as he himself would have it be.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Is it really wrong to feel angry? Maybe I'm an exception, but when I see some psychopath go shooting up a bunch of fellow youth that did nothing to him and robbing them of their lives in the prime of their youth, I get angry. In fact, I'd say I should get angry. I see no basis for saying "Well, let's try to understand him and get in touch with his feelings." No. Not all anger is a bad thing.

Of course, this doesn't mean that we act as judge, jury, and executioner, but if you feel angry, that's entirely justified. Evil ought to make us angry and maybe if it did more often, we'd really do something about it.

[Gabby]

Can I forgive him for stealing one more piece of my sense of security and robbing the innocence away from my children, making us all more afraid? Can I/should I forgive him for making me just that much more cynical of our world and the people in it? :shrug:

[Pilgrim]

Can I forgive him for stealing one more piece of my sense of security and robbing the innocence away from my children, making us all more afraid? Can I/should I forgive him for making me just that much more cynical of our world and the people in it? :shrug:

I don't know if you can, but you should. Not seven times, but seven times seven times...

[Genesius]

Is it really wrong to feel angry? Maybe I'm an exception, but when I see some psychopath go shooting up a bunch of fellow youth that did nothing to him and robbing them of their lives in the prime of their youth, I get angry. In fact, I'd say I should get angry. I see no basis for saying "Well, let's try to understand him and get in touch with his feelings." No. Not all anger is a bad thing.

Of course, this doesn't mean that we act as judge, jury, and executioner, but if you feel angry, that's entirely justified. Evil ought to make us angry and maybe if it did more often, we'd really do something about it.

I don't think this is an issue of getting angry or not. Of course one should get angry and saddened and hurt over this event. The question becomes what do you want to do, now that you're angry? Do you want revenge? Sure. Justice? Damn right. Forgiveness? Hmmm, maybe not so much.

Revenge and Justice from an angered state will do nothing to quell the anger or heal anyone. Do we really hate this guy? I don't think so. I think we should love him. Does that mean he shouldn't be punished? I don't think that's necessarily true either, we all should hate his actions and be angered by them.

We should want him to be healed. We should want him to see Christ and the Kingdom of heaven, but how will that ever happen if we don't forgive him. There are times when I get angry with myself, I hate my own actions, but I don't think I ever really hate myself, or don't want forgiveness.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Just one further point. The original post, and comments since, have omitted to address the phrase that follows these words of Jesus, "for they do not know what they are doing". I am not saying I have any brilliant ideas about them either, but surely they are crucial in understanding the forgiveness here? This is the reason that Jesus gives for extending forgiveness to them.

Regarding praying that the killer in question enter the kingdom of heaven, that is absurd. We can only pray for people who are alive. Praying for the dead achieves nothing. Furthermore, there is surely little doubt in this case about where this particular individual will stand at the judgement. Forgiving others will not save them, and in any case is of no benefit to them once they are dead.

We should pray for the salvation of even the most wicked person while they are alive. But once they are dead, that's it. Game over.