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A critical take on Inspiring Phiosophy's evidence for the Resurrection

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  • A critical take on Inspiring Phiosophy's evidence for the Resurrection



    I plan on addressing some of the claims in this video in 5 minute increments. Would like to hear feedback from other users on the forum.

    1. At 1:42 IP says "it's widely agreed that Jesus was buried in a nearby tomb. We have multiple attestation from early sources."
    Actually, Paul does not mention a "tomb" at all in his firsthand material and the Markan empty tomb narrative was copied by the authors of Matthew and Luke (2 source hypothesis, synoptic problem). John's gospel was written so late that it's more probable he knew of the Markan narrative and adapted it to fit his story as well. This is argued by Louis A. Ruprecht in This Tragic Gospel, Crossan in The Passion in Mark (pgs. 138-145) and Adela Yarbro Collins http://austingrad.edu/images/SBL/Collins.pdf
    Some scholars such as CK Barret, Frans Neirynck, Gilbert Van Belle argue for the possibility of a more direct literary dependence of the gospel of John on some or all of the synoptic gospels.

    So in the end, there is no confirmed independent testimony of the empty tomb but rather the evidence points to Matthew and Luke copying, while John had knowledge of the Markan narrative which cannot be demonstrated to come before the year 70.

    ----

    2. At 1:53 IP cites Josephus Jewish War 4.317 as evidence for burying crucifixion victims but there are numerous problems with this in regards to Jesus as Bart Ehrman explains - http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forum...#msg1275426509

    ----

    3. At 1:57 IP states that Jewish law demanded that even foreigners and criminals had to be buried. But Jewish law is irrelevant here because Jesus was executed by the Romans under Pilate, not the Jews. The evidence we have for Pilate is that he did not care about respecting Jewish law or their sensitivities - Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.1-2; Philo Embassy to Gaius 302, Luke 13:1. In fact, Pilate was eventually removed from Judea for not keeping good relations with the Jews.

    ----

    4. At 2:02 IP cites the one archaeological instance of a crucifixion victim being buried but doesn't the fact that the remains of only one person being recovered confirm the ancient sources saying that victims were denied a proper burial? All the contemporary sources which describe crucifixion seem to imply that the victim was left hanging to serve as food for scavenging animals.


    Archaeologist Jodi Magness in pg. 48 argues:



    Jews buried criminals in entirely different locations as attested by the Mishnah Sanhedrin 6:5:

    "And they did not bury them in the graves of their fathers, but two burying places were arranged for the Court (Beth Dīn), one for (those) stoned and (those) burned, and one for (those) beheaded and (those) strangled."

    A unique grave was not necessary for crucified people, since crucifixion was not an official Jewish penalty.

    The Tosefta 9:8-9 states that criminals may not be buried in their ancestral burying grounds but have to be placed in those of the court. This is justified by a quoting of the Psalm of David: "Do not gather my soul with the sinners" (26:9). In b. Sanhedrin 47a - "a wicked man may not be buried beside a righteous one."

    Josephus comments on the end of a biblical thief, (Jos. Ant. V, 44). Somewhat similarly, he says of anyone who has been stoned to death for blaspheming God, (Jos. Ant. IV, 202).

    Judging from all this historical evidence we should infer that Jesus was most likely buried in a grave that was reserved for criminals if he was even buried at all. It's highly unlikely that he was given his own "new" and "empty" tomb where "no one had ever been laid" like the later gospels describe.

    ----

    5. At 2:19 IP says that "only a few skeptical scholars from the Jesus seminar deny that Jesus was buried in a tomb" but this relies on a now discredited appeal to Gary Habermas' "70-75% figure" which has numerous problems. https://evaluatingchristianity.wordp...-unpersuasive/
    http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/.../4857#habermas

    I'm curious as to how IP can honestly claim this without interviewing all the scholars that teach at secular universities in both the U.S. and Europe. From reading critical scholarship, it's pretty evident that more than "just a few" scholars doubt the empty tomb.

    ----

    6.https://books.google.com/books?id=ZI...page&q&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=z-...page&q&f=false----

    7. At 4:40 IP cites multiple attestation of people seeing Jesus including Paul and the gospels but only Paul's testimony is firsthand and he makes it clear that what he saw was a vision or had a spiritual experience. Most scholars date Mark c. 70 and he doesn't even narrate any of the resurrection appearances in the earliest manuscripts. Why would he leave the most important part of the story out? Matthew dates to c. 80, Luke 85-90, and John 90-110. All of which are too late to have been written within the lifetime of the original followers of Jesus.
    Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 01-23-2016, 04:05 PM.

  • #2
    To many issues to answer all at once. Just this one last one shows you lack accurate information:
    Most scholars date Mark c. 70 and he doesn't even narrate any of the resurrection appearances in the earliest manuscripts.
    Only three known manuscripts of Mark omit the long ending in its entirety. One of two the Vaticanus has a blank column with enough space to add the long ending. The other, the Sinaiticus, that section of the manuscript was replaced by another scribe. The three Greek manuscripts are Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, & 304. Only .2% of a Greek manuscripts of Mark. The other 99.8% give witness to the longer reading.

    BTW the video only makes reference to Mark 15:42-16:8.
    Last edited by 37818; 01-23-2016, 07:36 PM.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      To many issues to answer all at once. Just this one last one shows you lack accurate information: Only three known manuscripts of Mark omit the long ending in its entirety. One of two the Vaticanus has a blank column with enough space to add the long ending. The other, the Sinaiticus, that section of the manuscript was replaced by another scribe. The three Greek manuscripts are Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, & 304. Only .2% of a Greek manuscripts of Mark. The other 99.8% give witness to the longer reading.

      BTW the video only makes reference to Mark 15:42-16:8.
      Yes, that's true. However, the manuscripts that omit 16:9-20 are considered the most reliable ones.

      Also, the style of the long ending is significantly different from the rest of Mark.

      I'll respond to the OP tomorrow/later tonight. I'm about to head out the door and want to give it the attention it deserves.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by psstein View Post
        Yes, that's true. However, the manuscripts that omit 16:9-20 are considered the most reliable ones.
        That may be the view of the "majority" of scholars. But evidence can be shown that being the most reliable is not not the case there being high number of corrections and variations between the two. The two key things that the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts do have in their favor being that they are the two oldest most complete texts as a whole NT.

        Also, the style of the long ending is significantly different from the rest of Mark.
        It as an epilogue being written in a more compressed narrative would be a different style from the rest of Mark. Again the video ends its reference to Mark's account at 16:8.

        I'll respond to the OP tomorrow/later tonight. I'm about to head out the door and want to give it the attention it deserves.
        Last edited by 37818; 01-23-2016, 09:13 PM.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          To many issues to answer all at once. Just this one last one shows you lack accurate information: Only three known manuscripts of Mark omit the long ending in its entirety. One of two the Vaticanus has a blank column with enough space to add the long ending. The other, the Sinaiticus, that section of the manuscript was replaced by another scribe. The three Greek manuscripts are Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, & 304. Only .2% of a Greek manuscripts of Mark. The other 99.8% give witness to the longer reading.

          BTW the video only makes reference to Mark 15:42-16:8.
          Are those not the earliest manuscripts? The original version of Mark ended at verse 8 while the other "witnesses" were influenced by Luke's ending which came 15-20 years later. It doesn't matter if 99.8% of the manuscripts reflect an ending that was not original to the composition.
          Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 01-23-2016, 11:29 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Part 2

            8.----

            9.----

            10. At 7:22 in regards to the early creed, there are some indicators that it has been altered.

            - Maurice Casey, Jesus of Nazareth, pg. 457 https://books.google.com/books?id=nO...page&q&f=false

            ----

            11.----

            12. At 9:51 IP cites "early sermons preserved in Acts":

            - Bart Ehrman, How Jesus Became God, pg. 117

            Most scholars date Acts 80-90 but a growing number prefer a late date for the composition of Acts in the early 2nd century. http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/actapo358006.shtml

            To be continued...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
              Are those not the earliest manuscripts? The original version of Mark ended at verse 8 while the other "witnesses" were influenced by Luke's ending which came 15-20 years later. It doesn't matter if 99.8% of the manuscripts reflect an ending that was not original to the composition.
              The evidence supports the interpretation that the long ending is older than the oldest two manuscripts that omit it. Conservative and secular scholarship interpret the same evidence differently. The view point in the video takes Mark as ending with 16:8. And so you therefore know for fact that the long ending was not composed buy Mark? I would dare say a majority of professing Christians might conceed that the long ending is not part of the original composition by the writer of the work called Mark. The NT stories of the resurrection are not dependant on that long ending 16:9-20. Nor are the arguments made in the video.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                The evidence supports the interpretation that the long ending is older than the oldest two manuscripts that omit it.
                Explain exactly how this is the case. From my understanding, the exact opposite is true.

                Conservative and secular scholarship interpret the same evidence differently. The view point in the video takes Mark as ending with 16:8. And so you therefore know for fact that the long ending was not composed buy Mark? I would dare say a majority of professing Christians might conceed that the long ending is not part of the original composition by the writer of the work called Mark. The NT stories of the resurrection are not dependant on that long ending 16:9-20. Nor are the arguments made in the video.
                I think the overall point is if the earliest gospel does not narrate the appearances, (you know, the most important part), then we can't be sure what he thought about them or that they actually took place like the later authors depict. Not only does this speak against traditional "Peter's secretary" authorship (why would Peter's secretary leave out the appearance to Peter?), it also supports the theory that the gospel documents exhibit a story that grew in chronological order. Paul c. 50 - visions; Mark c. 70 - missing body, no appearances; Matthew c. 80 - has appearances in which "some doubted"; Luke 85-90 - has a physical flesh and bones appearance and is the first to introduce the 40 day period followed by ascension; John 90-110 has Thomas actually touch the wounds of Jesus. These reports are inconsistent in how they represent the resurrection and exhibit the accretion of significant details that look suspicious based on their absence from the earliest sources.
                Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 01-24-2016, 10:51 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                  I plan on addressing some of the claims in this video in 5 minute increments. Would like to hear feedback from other users on the forum.
                  For those of us who do not want to watch the 45-minute video to which you are and will continue to be responding to, would you mind expressing your own perspective or conclusions in a couple of sentences or as concisely as you feel comfortable doing? There are certainly some points below with which I agree, but I confess that I have not yet decided if it is worthwhile for me to read all of your posts yet.
                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just a handful of points, as I've quite a few things to do today:

                    1. Casey seems to have not understood that Jesus' early disciples had some ability in Greek; they clearly did not only speak Aramaic. It's not an "either/or" case, which Casey never seemed to get. The tradition in 1 Cor 15:3-8 is ancient, and scholars vary on how much of it is actually pre-Pauline. It's often thought that the tradition concluded with the appearance to James.

                    2. Paul may not know of the empty tomb, but the tradition he quotes does. The Greek indicates an empty tomb. A paper appeared last summer about this.

                    3. Mark not having resurrection appearances means nothing. The appearances are, I think, implied.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by psstein View Post
                      3. Mark not having resurrection appearances means nothing. The appearances are, I think, implied.
                      Explain.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post

                        1. At 1:42 IP says "it's widely agreed that Jesus was buried in a nearby tomb. We have multiple attestation from early sources."
                        Actually, Paul does not mention a "tomb" at all in his firsthand material and the Markan empty tomb narrative was copied by the authors of Matthew and Luke (2 source hypothesis, synoptic problem). John's gospel was written so late that it's more probable he knew of the Markan narrative and adapted it to fit his story as well. This is argued by Louis A. Ruprecht in This Tragic Gospel, Crossan in The Passion in Mark (pgs. 138-145) and Adela Yarbro Collins http://austingrad.edu/images/SBL/Collins.pdf
                        Some scholars such as CK Barret, Frans Neirynck, Gilbert Van Belle argue for the possibility of a more direct literary dependence of the gospel of John on some or all of the synoptic gospels.

                        So in the end, there is no confirmed independent testimony of the empty tomb but rather the evidence points to Matthew and Luke copying, while John had knowledge of the Markan narrative which cannot be demonstrated to come before the year 70.
                        John and Luke give a parallel account, Luke 24:10-12. John's account has Mary M running off immediately, [before the other women went into the tomb and ran off to tell the disciples,] and Mary M arriving to tell both Peter and John. John 20:1-10. It is only the long ending of Mark [16:9], not referenced in the Video which mentions what would be in agreement with John's account [20:11-16].

                        Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        To many issues to answer all at once. Just this one last one shows you lack accurate information: Only three known manuscripts of Mark omit the long ending in its entirety. One of two the Vaticanus has a blank column with enough space to add the long ending. The other, the Sinaiticus, that section of the manuscript was replaced by another scribe. The three Greek manuscripts are Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, & 304. Only .2% of a Greek manuscripts of Mark. The other 99.8% give witness to the longer reading.

                        BTW the video only makes reference to Mark 15:42-16:8.
                        Are those not the earliest manuscripts? The original version of Mark ended at verse 8 while the other "witnesses" were influenced by Luke's ending which came 15-20 years later. It doesn't matter if 99.8% of the manuscripts reflect an ending that was not original to the composition.
                        I would argue the long ending of Mark, if not written by the author of the Mark account, if to be a late addition, to be have been influenced by both Luke and John. See my above. That would still allow the long ending to be older than Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.
                        Last edited by 37818; 01-24-2016, 05:40 PM.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          To view video from 1:41 to 1:53 minutes in

                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=101&end=113

                          To view video from 1:53 to 1:57 minutes in

                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=113&end=117

                          To view video from 1:57 to 2:02 minutes in

                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=117&end=122

                          To view video from 2:02 to 2:19 minutes in

                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=122&end=139

                          To view video from 2:19 to 4:10 minutes in

                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=139&end=250

                          To view video from 4:10 to 4:20 minutes in

                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=250&end=260

                          To view video from 4:20 to 6:09 minutes in

                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=260&end=369

                          To view video from 6:09 to 7:00 minutes in

                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=369&end=420

                          To view video from 7;00 to 7:22 minutes in

                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=420&end=442

                          To view video from 7:22 to 8:25 minutes in

                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=442&end=505

                          To view video from 8:25 to 9:51 minutes in

                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=505&end=591

                          To view video from 9:51 to 10:51 minutes in

                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=591&end=651

                          To view video from 1:41 to 10:51 minutes in

                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=101&end=651

                          [code]
                          https://www.youtube.com/v/A0iDNLxmWVM&start=101&end=651
                          [code]
                          The time in "&start=" and "&end=" are in seconds.
                          So 1:41 becomes 101 = 60 x 1 + 41.
                          And 10:51 becomes 651 = 60 x 10 + 51.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I listened/watched about 30 minutes.
                            Good apologetics. But's that's just what it is. It marshalls evidence for the truth of the Resurrection and downplays all the alternatives. It is not an impartial nor rigorous study.
                            From my point of view several of the proofs fail. He assumes everyone agrees James was the natural brother of Jesus. All Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and others (like Lutheran me, following Martin Luther) regard him as a cousin or step-brother. I also believe that the writer of John 19:20 was a cousin of Jesus and thus his closest relative, so Jesus saying "here is your son" follows naturally and implies nothing about James, not a closer relative of Jesus.
                            In spite of me being a fervent believer in the Resurrection, count me unimpressed.
                            As for Mark 16:9-20, why would we want this snake-handling regarded as legitimate, anyway? No, John 21 was the original ending of GMark.
                            Last edited by Adam; 01-24-2016, 07:44 PM.
                            Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by psstein View Post
                              Just a handful of points, as I've quite a few things to do today:

                              1. Casey seems to have not understood that Jesus' early disciples had some ability in Greek; they clearly did not only speak Aramaic. It's not an "either/or" case, which Casey never seemed to get. The tradition in 1 Cor 15:3-8 is ancient, and scholars vary on how much of it is actually pre-Pauline. It's often thought that the tradition concluded with the appearance to James.
                              They would have known pigeon Greek at best but if they knew any Greek at all is highly speculative. In any case, we have no idea what shape or form the creed was in before Paul "received" it and it's clearly been altered.

                              2. Paul may not know of the empty tomb, but the tradition he quotes does. The Greek indicates an empty tomb. A paper appeared last summer about this.
                              The creed only says "he was buried." It does not say he was "buried in a tomb." Also, if the "burial" was "according to the scriptures" (1 Cor 15:4) then this may be well within the range of midrash or pesher interpretation of Isaiah 53:9 or some other OT text and not a reference to an actual historical event. The creed is not an eyewitness report claiming "I saw Jesus buried."

                              3. Mark not having resurrection appearances means nothing. The appearances are, I think, implied.
                              It's implied that he will "appear" in Galilee but in what shape or form is not given. If we run with the theory that the author of Mark thought that Jesus was the "Son of Man" then he could have believed Jesus would make his triumphant return in Galilee. It's not clear from Mark's ending that Jesus was still on earth or not. All Mark leaves us with is a missing body.

                              Comment

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