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View Full Version : FEATURED MEMBER ARTICLE: Encountering Postmodernity by Philosophickle


Trout
April 29th 2007, 10:27 AM
Introduction

We live in a postmodern world. Aspiring theologians, philosophers, politicians, scientists and teachers must all accept the fact that civilization is observing the twilight of the modern age. This is not to say that modernism, or more specifically the ideals of the modern age, will not continue to survive at least nominally. The birthplace of modernity, Europe, is still largely secular in most countries though the resurgence of Islam is challenging this paradigm. America seems to be quite split at the time as is consistently reflected in each election, though in this humble observer’s eyes modernity is beginning to give way.

Of course, at the crossroads of any movement of significance there is confusion and equivocation- postmodernism is well within procedure at this point. Unfortunately, the nature and scope of the debate has caused misunderstanding nearly beyond recognition. One gets the feeling that the two sides either do not comprehend the terms of the discussion, or they are locked in some kind of intellectual inertia and choose to filibuster rather than engage. With this is mind, how can I expect to make any more progress than anyone else? This is a fair question, and one that has plagued me ever since I agreed to pursue this almost unreasonable task. I can come up with only three partial (and perhaps unsatisfactory) replies. One, my aim for this is rather modest considering some attempts at framing the dispute. You will find no answer to the probing questions here, only an attempt to give some background for each side. For example, I do not know the extent of change postmodernism demands for the “post-liberal” theologian. I’ll leave that up to the seminarians. If the anti-reductionism succeeds in becoming the ruling scientific paradigm, I will not be able to prophecy what it would mean in any branch of science. There are a few misunderstandings that are probably obvious enough to assert and clear, and I hope the readers will follow my rather trivial arguments. Second, to the sophisticated postmodernist my attempts here will provide material to work through like an archeologist. Always deconstructing, they realize that I am no neutral observer and must take into account multiple aspects of a very situated commentator in order to unravel any meaning. This will merely be another story to take merge into their story (or not, if they find the feigned objectivity too arrogant). And lastly, if this proves faithful to the facts and is found to be a reasonable outline of the way things are, the modernist may be able to come away feeling more confident about dealing with their neighborhood postmodernist proselytizer. With this in mind, we will begin with a very short (and dangerously inadequate) discussion of the two broad categories of postmodernist.

*Many thanks to James K. A. Smith for his patient handling of my questions. His books and journal articles are a must read for anyone interested in postmodernism. I also thank my teacher Mark Stevenson for his lively rejoinders to Jamie as well as his insights into the postmodern issue. Their sincerity and tenacity make me laugh at the thought of them being classmates at Emmaus.


Narratives and Naives

“Everything is relative”, says the overeducated junior of Poupon U, adding “of course there are no absolutes. Values and truth vary from culture to culture.” I call this naïve postmodernism, in that it does not properly represent the views of postmodernist thinkers. This does not mean that various “conventionalists” do not peddle these zingers in the comfort of their tenured university positions. It does mean that any postmodernist worth his or her salt would groan at the intellectual laziness of these sophists. It is because of this unreasonableness that makes them unworthy of much discussion, save distinguishing this “position” from that of contemporary postmodernism.

Sophisticated postmodernism (henceforth postmodernism) is not easy to pin down, for the simple reason that it is by its very nature reactionary. As I stated above, there are many branches to postmodernity that warrant further discussion but leave me quite at wits end. This is why we will look at the claims of postmodernity as it has presented itself professionally.

What, then, is postmodernism? The usual answer propagated by Evangelical apologists is the infamous “incredulity toward metanarratives.”1 Metanarrative, or Grand Story, is often taken as a universal story. This is a very big mistake, and one that can halt debate very quickly. Postmodernists are not worried about the scope of belief systems, though they probably do harbor doubts concerning systematic explanations. What they take offense to is the grounding of the story. According to postmodernists, the demise of foundationalism2 entails postmodernism necessarily. No “narrative” or story (science, theology, philosophy, etc.) can possibly “legitimize” their own truth. Jamie Smith sums up the postmodern position as such:

“At root, I would argue that what is at stake in postmodernism is the relationship between faith and reason.” 3

This is one of the major roadblocks in the postmodern debate today. It is not about universal doubt applied to everything, it is about neutrality. We are all firmly situated in our own circumstances, and we do not possess a bird’s-eye view of uninterpreted facts just waiting to be placed in their set order. They must be digested, mulled over, deconstructed and compared.

A few weeks ago, while struggling through a particularly poor translation of Derrida, I went to a philosophy professor of a neighboring university for help. I told him that something just wasn’t clicking- what exactly is he deconstructing? How did it become constructed in the first place? He told me one of the most helpful lines I heard for a long time- postmodernist thinkers are anti-realist. They believe that we are surrounded by constructions of reality (hence deconstruction). For example, an experience reading through Plato’s dialogues may seem like it speaks directly to us in a sort of basic way, but consciously or not we are always deconstructing the text according to the non-neutral participant we are. It is very likely that a philosophy student will get a very different meaning from the parable of the cave than that of an Indian theologian. We simply deconstruct Plato in divergent ways. Reality is very much the same- our whole lives we are fed a “story”, experience another and mix it all up into our own personal interpretive device. Now hopefully you understand the postmodernist problem with a self-legitimizing claim based on universal reason, and see the differences between this position and that of the naïve postmodernist (the relativist group).

Bulverism

Some may notice that this term has its origins in the work of one C.S. Lewis, specifically his God in the Dock. The term itself comes from an imaginary conversation Lewis envisions with a young Ezekiel Bulver listening in. The subject matter itself is of very little importance, until Ezekiel hears his mother make the statement, “You are only saying that because you are a man!” Suddenly it occurs to him- you can rebut an argument simply by drawing attention to the origins of the one presenting it!

This seems to me to be a real concern. Imagine the day when arguments are dissected by looking up the opposition’s history! Unfortunately, that seems to be entailed by the majority of academic postmodernity, and is a matter that must be dealt with clearly and quickly.

Coherentism

In many respects, postmodernism is a mood. As far as that goes, I have very little to say. However, the chief arguments for postmodernism come from epistemological considerations. That is, postmodernism is concerned with how someone justifies his or her beliefs as true. To better understand how a postmodernist would view knowledge, perhaps it is best to understand what they are universally rebelling against- foundationalism.

Foundationalism is perhaps the most popular and widely held theory of knowledge in history. Roughly, it states that all beliefs are either true because they are supported by evidence or true because they are true by definition (they are necessarily true). A foundationalist would say that all knowledge is built into a structure, much like a building. Your foundation (necessary truths) is built upon by other evidential bits of knowledge, all justified by the chunk of knowledge below it. Though this view went more or less unchallenged for millennia, it is now largely rejected for a simple reason- it is self-defeating. When one makes the statement “All knowledge is either true by definition or on the basis of evidence”, it does not seem that the foundationalist is on secure ground. In fact, that very definition of foundationalism is incoherent because it itself does not appear to be justified on either of those grounds.

With foundationalism defeated, most, of not all, postmodernists have developed a more holistic approach to the problem of foundationalism.

Largely, they have answered with what has been called “Coherentism”, or the theory that one’s beliefs are justified by their relations to other beliefs. W.V.O. Quine asks us to think of a web. This web is full of interrelated parts that are judged “true” insofar as they are consistent with one another (that is, the parts fit together). Perhaps the best illustration of the difference between coherence and foundations is a speculative series of questions asked to each of them. If you were to ask a foundationalist why he believes his particular beliefs are justified, he will tell you that he believes he is correct because he holds his belief on the basis of evidence. If you ask him about that evidence, he will answer that this evidence is also to be believed on the basis of something else, more basic and less dubitable. As you can seem this leads to a regress of sorts, and one must ask, “Does this chain of questions go on forever?” The foundationalist says no, because the regress ends in on a firm foundation of justification which would be irrational to deny. The coherentist, on the other hand, rejects this idea of an ending point, and claims that this series of justifications loops around in a circle- there is no stopping point.

As one can deduce from a bit of abstract reflection, it would be possible for two completely coherent systems of belief that do not contradict what is thought to be true. This is perhaps best seen in the theories of Thomas Kuhn, whose paradigm theories are an obvious representation of Coherentism in science. For Kuhn, it is not that some scientific theories are truer than others; they are simply different from each other. While Kuhn’s theories are well outside of this project, you would do well to acquaint yourself with his substantial undertaking.

Before we drop the curtain on this particular subject, I will note that postmodernism, while overwhelmingly adopting some sort of coherentist epistemology, is not a system of philosophy proper. There are counterexamples to nearly every illustration I’ve given, so the readers would do themselves harm to generalize the views of a few onto many.

Here’s the Rub

My duty has been to help clean up the bounds of the debate, as well as help alleviate some of the low blows inflicted upon this movement. There are still sincere questions for our postmodernist friends that seem to get danced around. You may think that some of them have been answered appropriately, and some are my own sincere reservations:

So what? Whatever you think science is, it has worked and progressed largely due to modernistic assumptions.

We must remember that the postmodernist is not so much interested in individual cases of what has or hasn’t worked. It wants to show that, say, science, does not have the ability to explain its success by itself. It is not built upon the objective march of men appealing to universal reason. They are not nihilists- they are attempting to show that even science has groundless presuppositions that more or less resemble the faith of the ancient church fathers.

Is the Bible another book that is to be deconstructed the same as any other text?

I do not myself feel qualified to answer such a query with much success, but in a sense the Bible is to be deconstructed like any other text. Though this question/veiled objection seems to carry some weight, is there much of a difference between the deconstruction of the postmodernist and the exegesis of the scholar?

On what grounds does the postmodernist critique modernism?

Postmodernism is not about destroying reason, but rather is aimed at the Enlightenment project of Cartesian certainty and autonomy. This seems to create more problems than it solves- the answer that fits the mood of the debate the best is “by faith”, even if they do not label it as such.

Personal Notes and Conclusion

I have attempted to give some useful information to those actively involved in the church and community. Postmodernism, as has been noted, is a frighteningly large and confused subject, and for anyone to interact with this lusus naturae is to be commended. In this next section I will give a few subjective thoughts (if that is not a repetition thought, I don’t know what is) that are bound to contain mistakes and emotion. It is with hope that it is useful that I share them.

My first thought when I became an undergrad is that all the teachers were going to be relativistic Socialists and orgy-loving rascals. Though I may have been partially correct for a few of them, my paranoia proved hasty and I quickly learned that they knew quite a bit more than I knew. Something I wasn’t ready for was the fact that they knew they were educated and would not stall making a fool of backwater, idealist students. And this is something that I have encountered with the majority of hard-line postmodernist I have interacted with- they do not seem to be postmodernists because they feel compelled that it is the correct position (if indeed correct positions exist for the sophisticated postmodern). Rather, they have a sort of attitude about them that just bleeds ability and accomplishment. In short, they seem pompous. Now, this goes for professional postmodernists more than anything, who derides anyone who claims to have any sort of privileged position when it comes to reality and our knowledge of it. Ironically, this seems to be the one thing a postmodernist cannot do.

Postmodernism may also be a bit of an overreaction. Martin Luther once remarked that the drunken man, after falling off one side of the horse, follows by falling off the other side. Perhaps modernity needs to be replaced or supplemented (or qualified), but postmodernity seems to bring along costly extremes with its helpful criticisms. One is reminded of the poor woman who swears off men on account of a few substandard relationships.
Lastly, I would like to add that I have a great deal of respect for the concerns of the postmodernist. I think many of their observations of the failures of modernity are direct hits and need to be digested and analyzed by any responsible thinker. This is not something that is going to go away, and one does an incredible amount of harm to society by speculating on the sidelines. Postmodernists are known for acting according to their convictions; we all have a responsibility to meet this challenge on all fronts, taking the best from it and rejecting the worst.

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END NOTES:

1) Jean-Francois Lyotard, The Postmodern Condition: A Report on Knowledge, trans. Geoff Bennington and Brian Massumi (Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1984), 24.

2) By foundationalism I mean the belief that all facts are grounded upon an indubitable base. For example, my thinking I exist could be built on the indubitable foundation that doubting I exist entails I am a thinking thing, and a thinking thing must exist. It is largely conceded that foundationalism, which traces its heritage mostly to Descartes (some trace it to Plato), has been defeated.

3) Myron Penner, Christianity and the Postmodern Turn (Grand Rapids: Brazos Press, 2005), 132.

Trout
May 1st 2007, 04:41 PM
:bump:

Little Shepherd
May 2nd 2007, 12:42 AM
I am confused on something. You first stated:Roughly, it states that all beliefs are either true because they are supported by evidence or true because they are true by definition (they are necessarily true).Then later you went on to say:When one makes the statement “All knowledge is either true by definition or on the basis of evidence”, it does not seem that the foundationalist is on secure ground. In fact, that very definition of foundationalism is incoherent because it itself does not appear to be justified on either of those grounds.I don't think I understand what you're saying. Could you please explain how this statement doesn't fulfill at least one of the main criteria of foundationalism?

I suppose you could consider the statement to be begging the question, but it's certainly no worse in this respect than the law of noncontradiction, without which any attempt to build a coherent epistemology is futile. :huh:

Philosophickle
May 2nd 2007, 12:52 AM
I am confused on something. You first stated:Then later you went on to say:I don't think I understand what you're saying. Could you please explain how this statement doesn't fulfill at least one of the main criteria of foundationalism?

I suppose you could consider the statement to be begging the question, but it's certainly no worse in this respect than the law of noncontradiction, without which any attempt to build a coherent epistemology is futile. :huh:

Sure thing DX!

Modern foundationalists believe that there are (approx.) three kinds of beliefs, but I made it two for the sake of this essay. According to them in order for a belief to be rational it must either:

1) Be apart of the foundation
2) Be built upon the foundation

Obviously, foundationalism cannot be supported by (2), as that would include circular reasoning. And the only way a belief can be apart of the foundation is:

1a) Be incorrigible (beliefs impossible to be mistaken about- I am in pain)
1b) Be evident to the senses (I perceive blueness)
1c) Be necessarily true (The Law of non-Contradiction)

Unless the statement "All rational beliefs must be (1) or (2)" [F] itself falls into these categories, it is self-defeating. And surely F is not incorrigible, it is not evident to the senses and certainly is not necessarily true. It would seem, therefore, that it is self-defeating.

Little Shepherd
May 2nd 2007, 01:39 AM
If we can say the law of noncontradiction is necessarily true, then why can't we say that [F] is necessarily true as well.I'm not so sure it doesn't fall under 1b. It certainly seems to fit the way I perceive things, almost always taking my a prior knowledge for granted. And while I know you believe that it doesn't fall under 1c, I'm not so sure that saying it's "certainly" not 1c isn't just another type of question-begging. Again I must :huh:.

Philosophickle
May 2nd 2007, 01:43 AM
I'm not so sure it doesn't fall under 1b. It certainly seems to fit the way I perceive things, almost always taking my a prior knowledge for granted. And while I know you believe that it doesn't fall under 1c, I'm not so sure that saying it's "certainly" not 1c isn't just another type of question-begging. Again I must :huh:.

Well, 1b seems to be a poor option because one could be sure of one's senses without being a classical foundationalist. That is, ones sense only show that one is perceiving something, not that our perceiving something proves foundationalism.

As for 1c, foundationalism is not necessarily true because denying foundationalism does not end in contradiction. Other necessary truths, such as the laws of logic, cannot be denied without shooting oneself in the foot. Not so much for foundationalism.

Rupert Pupkin
May 2nd 2007, 07:28 AM
Excellent article, Philosophickle!

Can I offer my own reflections, which I have been developing lately reading through a draft of a book by an expert in Husserl's and Heidegger's phenomenology, who is an excellent guy. I think that there is in fact a middle ground between the view of truth held by modernists and that held by postmodernists. The problem with the correspondence view of truth is that it presupposes some pre-intentional and pre-linguistic "Given" which can be used as the basis against which to ground the truth of propositions. But such a idea is incoherent; perception is an intentional act, and the "Given" cannot serve as the basis for rational justification unless it has an intentional and linguistic form, which is precisely what it is supposed not to have in order for it to be the "Given" (as Sellars argues). We do not perceive a shaded red-round shape and infer from that, by forming a hypothesis, that there is a ball there; we perceive the ball, and our perception of the ball is not seperable from our concept of balls. So perception already has conceptual structure embedded within it. It is therefore never possible to "get at" the pre-conceptual and pre-linguistic world which propositions are alleged to correspond to. There just are no "facts" accessible to us that are not already framed in conceptual and intentional terms.

But the problem with postmodernism is that it cannot say in what way our language relates to reality. In Wittgenstein, this is essentially left a mystery, and one that our language cannot speak of. In people like Davidson, there is a merely causal connection between our language and the world. None of these solutions will do, I don't think, and they all lead to some form of coherence view of truth.

But there is a way forward through this impasse, I think. If we allow that perception may be intentional without being linguistic, that we may perceive that such-and-such is the case without having to believe an explicit proposition "such-and-such is the case" (a move which has other justifications, but which is generally overlooked in Anglo-American thought), then we can maintain the "sensual" character of perception alongside the conceptual aspect. We do not need to choose between one or the other. We can then effectively reverse Tarski's logic in relation to the correspondence view of truth. He started with a concept of the meaning of a proposition as essentially a primitive, and from that defined truth as correspondence with the facts. But we can start by taking truth as being an undefinable primitive, and then define the concept of meaning or reference in terms of truth. We thereby can deny both the correspondence theory of truth and coherentism; we take "truth" to be an undefinable primitive term that you just have to understand in order to know how to speak. In a sense this makes truth itself a kind of transcendental condition for knowing.

I think that it is possible to occupy a space between the Given of modernism and the linguistic of postmodernism. But I am still trying to think through all the ramifications of this at the moment. I am also not sure how to work this into my theology.

Could you please explain how this statement doesn't fulfill at least one of the main criteria of foundationalism?

I note Dopey has already given a response, but I thought I'd give a brief historical perspective that might help clarify things!

To explain the idea behind foundationalism, it is helpful to put it in the context of an argument raised by the ancient Greek sceptics. It had been argued by Plato that knowledge was justified true belief. But the sceptics saw a problem with this. In order for my belief A to be knowledge, it must be justified by good reasons B. But in order for these good reasons B to really be good reasons, they must be themselves known, and hence must be justified by further good reasons C, which must be justified by further good reasons D, which must be justified by further good reasons E, and so forth, apparently ad infinitum. But since we can't hold an infinite number of beliefs, let alone know an infinite number of things, it seems that all our knowledge must be without foundation.

Foundationalism responded to this dilemma as follows. If you trace the chain of justifications backwards, you eventually get to certain beliefs which are self-evident and require no further justification. They justify themselves, so to speak. But then foundationalists split into two camps. The rationalists (Descartes, Spinoza, Leibniz), regarded the self-evident basis for knowledge as truths which are self-evident to reason. The empiricists (Locke, Berkeley, Hume) regarded the self-evident basis for knowledge as our immediate sensations in consciousness (like my perception of redness). Unfortunately, neither basis will suffice. The rationalists fell foul of the development of modern logic and the realization that logic is essentially vacuous - it just doesn't provide a sufficient basis to ground all our beliefs about the world. The empiricists fell foul of various problems such as "the myth of the Given", mentioned above, Wittgenstein's refutation of atomic propositions, and phenomenology's demonstration of the intentional character of perception. In continental philosophy the transcendentalism of Kant dealt a death blow to rationalism by demonstrating that there are transcendental "conditions for knowing" that are not themselves knowable. Husserl arrived at much the same general conclusions but put the concept of intentionality on centre stage. Foundationalism died; it left in its wake neo-Kantianism and other forms of transcendentalism, phenomenology, and ultimately took a linguistic turn as had Anglo-American philosophy since Wittgenstein.

Roughly, we can characterize premodern philosophy as being mainly concerned with metaphysics, modern philosophy as being mainly concerned with epistemology, and postmodern philosophy as being mainly concerned with semantics. Foundationalism is very much an epistemological doctrine, with epistemological concerns; and hence is essentially modernist.

Philosophickle
May 2nd 2007, 05:29 PM
Excellent article, Philosophickle!

Thank you, Rupert, even though it wasn't.

Can I offer my own reflections, which I have been developing lately reading through a draft of a book by an expert in Husserl's and Heidegger's phenomenology, who is an excellent guy. I think that there is in fact a middle ground between the view of truth held by modernists and that held by postmodernists. The problem with the correspondence view of truth is that it presupposes some pre-intentional and pre-linguistic "Given" which can be used as the basis against which to ground the truth of propositions.

This is probably true. I would tend to say that God does believe things or know things propositionally as we do.

But such a idea is incoherent; perception is an intentional act, and the "Given" cannot serve as the basis for rational justification unless it has an intentional and linguistic form, which is precisely what it is supposed not to have in order for it to be the "Given" (as Sellars argues). We do not perceive a shaded red-round shape and infer from that, by forming a hypothesis, that there is a ball there; we perceive the ball, and our perception of the ball is not seperable from our concept of balls. So perception already has conceptual structure embedded within it. It is therefore never possible to "get at" the pre-conceptual and pre-linguistic world which propositions are alleged to correspond to. There just are no "facts" accessible to us that are not already framed in conceptual and intentional terms.

I agree with you, but don't you think that it may be possible to reason backwards transcendentally? Perhaps there is something in our cognitive faculties that comes pre-packaged with a notion of what truth is, what rationality is, and the general layout of those faculties can be reasoned back to. As imperfect as it may be, perhaps we can infer from the effect to the cause, and if the correspondence theory of truth seems right or wrong, perhaps it is because we were set up that way. I just do not know.

But the problem with postmodernism is that it cannot say in what way our language relates to reality. In Wittgenstein, this is essentially left a mystery, and one that our language cannot speak of. In people like Davidson, there is a merely causal connection between our language and the world. None of these solutions will do, I don't think, and they all lead to some form of coherence view of truth.

Very true. But Wittgenstein seems to have been on to something when he set out to show that there are some things that are known, but cannot be shown (paradoxically). Maybe we just cannot know how our language (esp. propositions of belief) relate to that elusive thing-in-itself? It just so happens to be that it does and we all assume it (a sort of fideism).

But there is a way forward through this impasse, I think. If we allow that perception may be intentional without being linguistic, that we may perceive that such-and-such is the case without having to believe an explicit proposition "such-and-such is the case" (a move which has other justifications, but which is generally overlooked in Anglo-American thought), then we can maintain the "sensual" character of perception alongside the conceptual aspect. We do not need to choose between one or the other. We can then effectively reverse Tarski's logic in relation to the correspondence view of truth. He started with a concept of the meaning of a proposition as essentially a primitive, and from that defined truth as correspondence with the facts. But we can start by taking truth as being an undefinable primitive, and then define the concept of meaning or reference in terms of truth. We thereby can deny both the correspondence theory of truth and coherentism; we take "truth" to be an undefinable primitive term that you just have to understand in order to know how to speak. In a sense this makes truth itself a kind of transcendental condition for knowing.

Very interesting indeed. This sounds like an Alstonian view of non-propositional knowledge.

I think that it is possible to occupy a space between the Given of modernism and the linguistic of postmodernism. But I am still trying to think through all the ramifications of this at the moment. I am also not sure how to work this into my theology.

You and me both.

One thing that particularly challenges me is this notion knowing-but-not-knowing-how-you-know. Perhaps this is why postmodernism has a penchant for annoyance- it is willing to stop at that position and curb inquiry.

Little Shepherd
May 2nd 2007, 08:40 PM
The rationalists fell foul of the development of modern logic and the realization that logic is essentially vacuous - it just doesn't provide a sufficient basis to ground all our beliefs about the world. The empiricists fell foul of various problems such as "the myth of the Given", mentioned above, Wittgenstein's refutation of atomic propositions, and phenomenology's demonstration of the intentional character of perception. In continental philosophy the transcendentalism of Kant dealt a death blow to rationalism by demonstrating that there are transcendental "conditions for knowing" that are not themselves knowable.I think I get most of what you're saying except why it doesn't provide sufficient basis to ground all our beliefs about the world. If we have beliefs that don't fit in foundationalism, couldn't it be possible that it's the beliefs that are wrong and not foundationalism? Without knowing what the beliefs are, though, I certainly can't say. I'm just asking.

The last sentence there, though, I think I get. Transcendental conditions for knowing that aren't knowable(at least by us). I think I can buy that. After all, I do accept that there are certain things we simply have that make knowing and learning possible in the first place(I believe STR calls these things intuition), but I'm certainly not qualified to say how those things get there in the first place.

Rupert Pupkin
May 3rd 2007, 10:12 AM
Thank you, Rupert, even though it wasn't.

Ah, you're too modest!

This is probably true. I would tend to say that God does believe things or know things propositionally as we do.

I agree with you on that, but I wasn't even beginning to hope to address the question of God's knowledge. I was confining my speculation to us!

I agree with you, but don't you think that it may be possible to reason backwards transcendentally? Perhaps there is something in our cognitive faculties that comes pre-packaged with a notion of what truth is, what rationality is, and the general layout of those faculties can be reasoned back to. As imperfect as it may be, perhaps we can infer from the effect to the cause, and if the correspondence theory of truth seems right or wrong, perhaps it is because we were set up that way. I just do not know.

I think we can see that the correspondence theory is incorrect from Sellar's "myth of the Given" argument (and parallel arguments in Wittgenstein and phenomenology). The basic problem is that the correspondence theory claims a correspondence between the conceptual on the one hand, and the facts on the other. But the "facts" turn out to be conceptual themselves, so then it is just a matter of "correspondence" between concepts and concepts, which just results in coherentism. But if we take truth as an indefinable primitive (if you really didn't know what "truth" means then you couldn't assert anything), and allow for the sensuousness (i.e. non-linguistic) but still conceptual character of perception, then the whole thing takes a different form.

One additional argument for this is to account for the consciousness of animals. Animals often get little attention in philosophy, and Wittgenstein's theory almost seems to imply that they aren't conscious at all. But it seems obvious that if one dog sees a larger dog approaching, that he does indeed literally see a larger dog approaching (which is conceptual), but that this is not formulated explicitly in propositional terms, (i.e. the dog does not say to itself, "egad! a larger dog is approaching me").

Very true. But Wittgenstein seems to have been on to something when he set out to show that there are some things that are known, but cannot be shown (paradoxically). Maybe we just cannot know how our language (esp. propositions of belief) relate to that elusive thing-in-itself? It just so happens to be that it does and we all assume it (a sort of fideism).

Yes but you need to be careful about how you deal with sceptical attacks. Wittgenstein dissolves scepticism, but only in a way that is entirely unsatisfactory for a Christian theist, I think: by renderning sceptical questions nonsensical and all talk about the "thing-in-itself" as nonsensical too. I personally think that Wittgenstein does have problems in relation to how words engage with the world, and that merely insisting that this whole problem is itself meaningless is an inadequate response on his part.

Very interesting indeed. This sounds like an Alstonian view of non-propositional knowledge.

I don't know, but the basic issue is not really epistemic or concerning knowledge, but "conceptual" in a broader sense than merely semantic. We perceive the ball, and our perception therefore has conceptual content; but the question of whether we know there is a ball there on the basis of that perception is a distinct question. Our perceptions can be mistaken; I can see what I think initially is the neighbour's cat, but on closer inspection, it turns out to be a tree branch. That is a whole other question.

One thing that particularly challenges me is this notion knowing-but-not-knowing-how-you-know. Perhaps this is why postmodernism has a penchant for annoyance- it is willing to stop at that position and curb inquiry.

Yes, which tells us that for all the powerful arguments against modernism that have been raised, something is not quite right with full-blown postmodernism, either.

I think I get most of what you're saying except why it doesn't provide sufficient basis to ground all our beliefs about the world. If we have beliefs that don't fit in foundationalism, couldn't it be possible that it's the beliefs that are wrong and not foundationalism? Without knowing what the beliefs are, though, I certainly can't say. I'm just asking.

Yes, you could do this, but if you want to strip your beliefs down to, say, whatever can be proved in the predicate calculus, then you are going to have a very sceptical worldview indeed. Most of the beliefs that you take for granted in everyday life are going to be unable to be grounded. It seems a fairly unpleasant option to adopt for the sake of saving foundationalism!

The last sentence there, though, I think I get. Transcendental conditions for knowing that aren't knowable(at least by us). I think I can buy that. After all, I do accept that there are certain things we simply have that make knowing and learning possible in the first place(I believe STR calls these things intuition), but I'm certainly not qualified to say how those things get there in the first place.

The difficulty lies in showing precisely what are the trascendental conditions of knowledge. But I agree with you that they are there. That is why Kant's major work is called the "Critique of Pure Reason". In this sense Kant has sent a great shadow over Western philosophy, especially continental thought. It has gone "around the transcendental bend", as one critic derided Husserl for doing.

bentaisan
May 24th 2007, 11:32 AM
I have an observation.

1. Note: I am completely ignorant of the works of Wittgenstein, et al, except for a bit here and bit there I have picked up.
2. Thus I cannot make and argument for or against.

However, I have to note, that no matter what Wittgenstein or anyone else writes, they always assume that there are objects "out there" that are going to receive those writings, and that, by the very act of taking time to craft an epistle, undermine its content.

A more appropriate respone would be to go silent, roll a dice and perform some completely random act, or recite a Buddhist koane.

I do not know which ancient philosopher just waggled his finger when asked a question about whether things change or whether they remain the same, but I think Wittgenstein should have taken note.

Rupert Pupkin
May 24th 2007, 04:27 PM
However, I have to note, that no matter what Wittgenstein or anyone else writes, they always assume that there are objects "out there" that are going to receive those writings, and that, by the very act of taking time to craft an epistle, undermine its content.

A more appropriate respone would be to go silent, roll a dice and perform some completely random act, or recite a Buddhist koane.

I do not know which ancient philosopher just waggled his finger when asked a question about whether things change or whether they remain the same, but I think Wittgenstein should have taken note.

Don't give up, your first sentence sounds like Husserl (that in questioning whether there is an object "out there", I am already committed to the idea that there are objects distinct from myself, and hence my questioning is self-defeating; the question itself couldn't be formulated unless what it questions was true). Wittgenstein wouldn't be bothered by your objection, though, I don't think. Firstly, he would not deny that there are objects "out there" in an ordinary language sense. He'd just understand that claim non-metaphysically. Secondly, he would reply that he is playing a language game, and that game involves him in writing books, not going silent, rolling a dice or whatever. That's the rules of the game!

bentaisan
May 28th 2007, 08:51 AM
Bentaisan takes his dodecahedron dice out and roles...

Adam
July 14th 2007, 02:16 PM
I agree with you, but don't you think that it may be possible to reason backwards transcendentally? Perhaps there is something in our cognitive faculties that comes pre-packaged with a notion of what truth is, what rationality is, and the general layout of those faculties can be reasoned back to. As imperfect as it may be, perhaps we can infer from the effect to the cause, and if the correspondence theory of truth seems right or wrong, perhaps it is because we were set up that way. I just do not know.

Yes.
Socrates knew what it was in the Meno.
Which brings us back to Plato, a foundational Foundationalist.
In the Meno, Plato has Socrates instruct the slave-boy to "derive" the fundamentals of geometry by remembering what he already knew.
Stripping Plato of all his own accretions and getting back to "foundational" Socrates, what we learn is that we learn by remembering.
Touting Reincarnation is not very popular here on TWeb. Almost two years have passed since I challenged everyone to join me in the "Reincarnation" thread in Church History. It's not popular among Western philosophers either. Still, in lieu of anything else coming forward as a basis for truth, we have only my substitution for Descartes "I think, therefore I am" my own "I think, therefore I was" as a suitable foundation for truth. I have also argued extensively here on
TWeb for the "foundational" Christian theology, Origenism.
Let me explain quickly that I can't see anything anti-Christian in this teaching, since Jesus Himself taught it. Even during all but the first few months after my conversion to Roman Catholicism (1969-1992), I believed in reincarnation as my update on the then-derided doctrine of Purgatory.
You could also call my philosophy Neo-Cartesian. For my theory of knowledge, I accept Coherentism, though not in the sense Philosophickle has presented as fundamental Postmodernism. My Coherentism means I accept whatever can be reconciled with the foundational principle of reincarnation, and that this body of knowledge is so large that it confirms the starting point as true.
Adam

Rupert Pupkin
July 17th 2007, 01:53 AM
Hello all!

I've been thinking about the question of what truth is a bit more, and the more I do, the more I come to the conclusion that coherence theory is not contradictory to correspondence theory, but is quite compatible with it. I hold to what I would call perceptually grounded coherentism; but, I think, one of the advantages with that theory is that it provides an understanding of how truth can be correspondence with the facts.

Unfortunately, virtually every Christian book I've seen on postmodernism, makes a really sharp demarcation between the good, solid, and righteous correspondence theory of truth on the one hand, and the devious, nefarious, destabilizing coherence theory on the other. This seems to me just another example of how Christians who try to deal with these issues have no philosophical comprehension of contemporary philosophy. Coherence theory and correspondence theory are complementary, not in conflict.

Just to persuade those who will not be convinced by my mere say-so, I will quote one of the leading philosophers of recent times - Donald Davidson, from his essay A Coherence Theory of Truth and Knowledge. The full reference is provided at the end. The highlighting of text in the quotations is my own.

In this essay I defend what may as well be called a coherence theory of truth and knowledge. The theory I defend is not in competition with a correspondence theory, but depends for its defence on an argument that purports to show that coherence yields correspondence. (pp. 137)

It should be clear that I hope to define truth in terms of coherence and belief. (pp. 139)

I think we can draw two conclusions from these simple reflections. First, truth is correspondence with the way things are. (There is no straightforward and nonmisleading way to state this; to get things right, a detour is necessary through the concept of satisfaction in terms of which truth is characterized.) (pp. 139)

I guess yet another dumbed-down Christian myth about postmodernism bites the dust. What I love is the look on Christian's faces who've just read their first book on the evils of postmodernism, who ask me whether I hold to the coherence theory of truth or the correspondence theory. I reply, "both". You should see the look of consernation on their faces that results. Ah, the joy of stomping on stereotypes.

I'd also be most interested to hear what those TWebbers think about the above quotes, who make it a hobby to bag the coherence theory and uphold the virtues of the correspondence theory.

Reference:

Davidson, D. 2001. "A Coherence Theory of Truth and Knowledge", in Subjective, Intersubjective, Objective, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 137-157.

Adam
August 5th 2007, 09:32 PM
Too bad Rupert's been driven out of TWeb by Tektonics. In any case, his viewpoints though interesting had little intersection with mine.
Anyone interested in Origenism can find my old archived threads in Apologetics 301 or better yet go to my new thread "Origenism Explorations" I started at Wyzaard's request.
Adam