Domesticating new species

[Crow]

What do you think about the domestication of new species?

This is something I've thought a good deal about because in the past with reptiles and currently with short tailed opossums, I've been involved in breeding and therefore the initial selection process which can eventually result in a new species of domesticated animal.

In the past, working with various reptiles, primarily ball pythons, I selectively bred captive individuals. Some traits are becoming more common in captive populations, either by intentional selection (pattern morphs) or by as a result of individuals possessing these traits being inherently more efficient captive breeders. (decreased wariness of humans, adaptability to captive living conditions, decreased light/temperature external breeding cues)

Personally, I don't have an ethical problem with creating new domesticated strains as long as the native wild populations are not depleted in the process and we can meet the needs of the animals. Many of these currently non-domesticated but captive bred animals make delightful pets. (Max, the short tailed opossum, is nosing at my neck as I type this) Many are more suited to apartment life than some of our long-domesticated species. Max, for instance, requires a 16" by 36" cage with exercise wheel, hiding areas, and little else but fresh food, water, and a couple of minutes of cage cleaning daily. At this point in my life I don't have the space to keep many other pets I enjoy, like large dogs, in an ideal manner. But I still enjoy my critters.

Max the opossum seems to enjoy his life wholey--he's a greedy insistant little attention hog. I can't claim the same for the captive primates and large felines I've encountered. Should some species never be domesticated? I don't feel that captive conditions meet the physical and emotional needs of highly social animals, like lions, as an example, and that safety concerns demand that we not attempt to make housepets out of them.

I would be interested in hearing your opinions on domesticating new species, pro and con.

[The Curtmudgeon]

Personally, I think some of the old species need domestication.

The (starting with my sister's cat that peed all over my Irish cap) Curtmudgeon

[Crow]

And it never goes away, now matter how many times you wash it....

I can tell you a horror story about what my sister-in-law's cat used to murder my corn plant.....

[Teallaura]

Try white vinegar in the wash - it will usually get out the odor if the thing is colorfast enough to tolerate it.


There are similar efforts being made with zebra. Most focus on the crossbreeding with horses or donkeys (Zorses - I forget what the donkey crosses are called but no it's not zonkey :ahem:) but there are also efforts with purebred strains. Makes sense given how really uncontrollable a zebra can be.

Animals are not people. They should not be abused but there's no reason why they shouldn't be domesticated (presuming that they can be).

[Darth Executor]

What do you think about the domestication of new species?

This is something I've thought a good deal about because in the past with reptiles and currently with short tailed opossums, I've been involved in breeding and therefore the initial selection process which can eventually result in a new species of domesticated animal.

In the past, working with various reptiles, primarily ball pythons, I selectively bred captive individuals. Some traits are becoming more common in captive populations, either by intentional selection (pattern morphs) or by as a result of individuals possessing these traits being inherently more efficient captive breeders. (decreased wariness of humans, adaptability to captive living conditions, decreased light/temperature external breeding cues)

Personally, I don't have an ethical problem with creating new domesticated strains as long as the native wild populations are not depleted in the process and we can meet the needs of the animals. Many of these currently non-domesticated but captive bred animals make delightful pets. (Max, the short tailed opossum, is nosing at my neck as I type this) Many are more suited to apartment life than some of our long-domesticated species. Max, for instance, requires a 16" by 36" cage with exercise wheel, hiding areas, and little else but fresh food, water, and a couple of minutes of cage cleaning daily. At this point in my life I don't have the space to keep many other pets I enjoy, like large dogs, in an ideal manner. But I still enjoy my critters.

Max the opossum seems to enjoy his life wholey--he's a greedy insistant little attention hog. I can't claim the same for the captive primates and large felines I've encountered. Should some species never be domesticated? I don't feel that captive conditions meet the physical and emotional needs of highly social animals, like lions, as an example, and that safety concerns demand that we not attempt to make housepets out of them.

I would be interested in hearing your opinions on domesticating new species, pro and con.

Hey, I want an albino lion as a pet. :sad:

[rogue06]

There are similar efforts being made with zebra. Most focus on the crossbreeding with horses or donkeys (Zorses - I forget what the donkey crosses are called but no it's not zonkey :ahem:) but there are also efforts with purebred strains. Makes sense given how really uncontrollable a zebra can be.


I think you mean Zeedonk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/).

I know that dogs were the first animal species domesticated, but does anyone know which animal species was the last to be domesticated (so far)? I once heard that it was goats but I have no idea if that's true.

[Teallaura]

Thanks! :flowers:


Not sure, but I'd bet on geese - those suckers are mean!

[rogue06]

After reading the links in the thread, "Chimps are people too, insists scientist," (www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=1946129) could you imagine the legal and ethical problems that would arise over any attempt to domesticate apes?


























No, I don't mean like in "Planet of the Apes" :wink:

[Crow]

Try white vinegar in the wash - it will usually get out the odor if the thing is colorfast enough to tolerate it.


There are similar efforts being made with zebra. Most focus on the crossbreeding with horses or donkeys (Zorses - I forget what the donkey crosses are called but no it's not zonkey :ahem:) but there are also efforts with purebred strains. Makes sense given how really uncontrollable a zebra can be.

Animals are not people. They should not be abused but there's no reason why they shouldn't be domesticated (presuming that they can be).

Zebras crossed with horses and donkey's aren't really a species. They are sterile hybrids, like mules.

An interesting thing that is going on right now with zebras is an attempt to recreate an extinct animal, the quaaga. If you hit the link "Quaaga Project News" from this linked page, you can see how the efforts are turning out.

http://www.quaggaproject.org/

I agree that animals aren't people, nor should they be extended human rights. When I think along the lines of how people should interact with animals, good husbandry is what best describes my beliefs. Destroying species and robbing future generations of the enjoyment of living in a world rich in diversity of life is a gross form of selfishness. Selective breeding to create domestice lines isn't abusive when it's done with regard for animal's needs and the animals are treated humanely.

I was raised by a father and a stepfather who both placed high stock in a person who treated their animals humanely. They shared a belief that those who are brutal with animals are deeply lacking in both character and compassion and that this lack will not confine itself to animals but will play out in their relationships with people as well.

[Crow]

I think you mean Zeedonk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/).

I know that dogs were the first animal species domesticated, but does anyone know which animal species was the last to be domesticated (so far)? I once heard that it was goats but I have no idea if that's true.

There are species currently in the process of domestication. One that I've worked with is the ball python. Below are some color morph which are being selectively bred for in captive populations.

Some changes aren't as obvious. I've worked with wild caught ball pythons straight from Africa and pythons which are the result of 10+ generations of captive breeding and I can see differences in temperment that are similar to those which exist between wolves and dogs. The pythons with many generations of captive breeding behind them aren't as easily frightened, don't exhibit the same degree of prey imprinting, and aren't as dependent on lighting cues to breed. These traits are begining to become fixed in our captive populations because it's the less wary and less prey imprinted and less light sensitive snakes that breed in captivity more easily and these snakes are producing the largest proportion of captive offspring and passing these qualities on.

Below are some pictures which illustrate the changes being produced by the earliest stages of domestication of reptiles. These likely echo some which our ancestors saw when they began to selectively breed wolves, ultimately producing the domestic wolf which we now call the dog.

[Teallaura]

Zebras crossed with horses and donkey's aren't really a species. They are sterile hybrids, like mules.I'm well aware of that (although there are recorded cases of mules giving birth :teeth: Yes, I know how rare that is.) however using the hybrid helps give insight into managment for the zebra (a big issue - zebra are nuts!). More importantly it means that there has to be considerably more handling of the zebra themselves which is resulting in more selective breeding of zebra and with the additional knowledge of the animals a better understanding of what to breed for.


An interesting thing that is going on right now with zebras is an attempt to recreate an extinct animal, the quaaga. If you hit the link "Quaaga Project News" from this linked page, you can see how the efforts are turning out.

http://www.quaggaproject.org/ (http://www.quaggaproject.org/)
:yes: I knew that - it's totally cool! However, it hasn't anything to do with domestication proper. The game plan is eventual reintroduction.


I agree that animals aren't people, nor should they be extended human rights. When I think along the lines of how people should interact with animals, good husbandry is what best describes my beliefs. Destroying species and robbing future generations of the enjoyment of living in a world rich in diversity of life is a gross form of selfishness. Selective breeding to create domestice lines isn't abusive when it's done with regard for animal's needs and the animals are treated humanely.

I was raised by a father and a stepfather who both placed high stock in a person who treated their animals humanely. They shared a belief that those who are brutal with animals are deeply lacking in both character and compassion and that this lack will not confine itself to animals but will play out in their relationships with people as well.:thumb:

[Crow]

I'm well aware of that (although there are recorded cases of mules giving birth :teeth: Yes, I know how rare that is.)


They studied a mule that gave birth and found out that there was nothing ordinary about that mule--it was a chimera. In addition to hybrid tissues there were horse only derived tissues, which is how it was possible for that animal to reproduce.

So for a mule to give birth, it must be both a hybrid and a chimera. It's no wonder that is such a rare event.

[Jedidiah]

I am thinking about becoming domesticated myself.

[The Curtmudgeon]

I am thinking about becoming domesticated myself.

Just remember, the next step after being domesticated is being neutered.

The (why live in a house when there's a perfectly good cave around?) Curtmudgeon

[Teallaura]

:huh: I thought that was the first step?






























:grin:

[The Curtmudgeon]

:huh: I thought that was the first step?

Stay away from me, you madwoman! PUT THAT KNIFE DOWN!!

The ( :eek: ) Curtmudgeon

[Jedidiah]

Just remember, the next step after being domesticated is being neutered.

The (why live in a house when there's a perfectly good cave around?) Curtmudgeon

Only if you are young. Why else wait so long to do it?

[Gabby]

[QUOTE=Teallaura;1946045]There are similar efforts being made with zebra. Most focus on the crossbreeding with horses or donkeys (Zorses - I forget what the donkey crosses are called but no it's not zonkey :ahem:) but there are also efforts with purebred strains. Makes sense given how really uncontrollable a zebra can be.

QUOTE]


Debra.. :lol:

[BeJoyous]

I have always thought that mules were strange looking.

[NeilUnreal]

The book Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond has some interesting ruminations on why most of the economically important species that could be domesticated have already been domesticated. Of course, that doesn't necessarily include animal species domesticated as pet or as the result of changes in economics (e.g. plants which produce chemical we did not know how to industrially extract in the past).

-Neil

[Crow]

I think the shift is that we're domesticating animals for different reasons. The more recent species that I've had contact with or bred are far removed from the traditional pet species--marsupials (sugar gliders, opossums) and reptiles.(monitor lizards, pythons) The tendency in the new domestics, other big cats and similar species kept by big fools, is to keep animals which fit into busy schedules and which do not demand tons of human contact or social interaction with a group of their own kind.

[rogue06]

I think the shift is that we're domesticating animals for different reasons. The more recent species that I've had contact with or bred are far removed from the traditional pet species--marsupials (sugar gliders, opossums) and reptiles.(monitor lizards, pythons) The tendency in the new domestics, other big cats and similar species kept by big fools, is to keep animals which fit into busy schedules and which do not demand tons of human contact or social interaction with a group of their own kind.


Uh, wouldn't that be cats?

[Crow]

Uh, wouldn't that be cats?

Reptiles and many small mammals require even less care and interaction than cats. I could load my opossum's cages with food and water and not handle them for a couple of weeks and as long as the turds got tossed out of their litterbox occasionally and the rat wheel was there to run on, they would be just fine. They like social interaction, but they don't seem to need it or miss it when it's not available.

They don't claw stuff, they don't cost much to feed, and they're happy when you have time to fool with them and happy when you don't. I wouldn't keep a dog at this stage in my life because I'm plain not willing to devote the time to it that it requires. My possum Snoots is playing in my hair as I type--human hair is fascinating to possums. Cats demand more attention than she does--she doesn't even require that I respond to her or show some sort of recognition. She likes it when I do, but she's OK with just playing in my hair if I don't feel like fooling with her.

[rogue06]

I had a couple of friends who had a pet skunk named Spook. Yes, its musk glands had been removed. It liked to get on the back of the sofa and dig through your hair (looking for insects I presumed). What a great scalp massage. But to make a long story short, trying to keep a skunk as a pet just didn't work out.

[Crow]

Skunks can make decent pets. We had a couple of them when I was a kid.

They were kept outside though, because ours weren't descented and they were somewhat pungent.

Some people appreciate a high degree of wild behaviors and traits in their animals, and for such people, skunks, possums, coons, and even groundhogs make great pets.

[The Curtmudgeon]

I have an anecdotal story of a FOAF that kept a wildcat (note: not a feral cat, but a lynx or something like it) as a pet. It got along great with its owner's friends, but it was really more than a certain would-be burglar was expecting....

The (burglar gets a police-escorted ambulance ride to nearby hospital) Curtmudgeon

[rogue06]

Yeah, they lived in an apartment though later moved into a house. Spook was very territorial. Whenever anyone would come in it would charge forward and try to spray them. Unsuccessfully of course. And yes, the place always had a dank funky odor due to the skunk.

[Crow]

I have an anecdotal story of a FOAF that kept a wildcat (note: not a feral cat, but a lynx or something like it) as a pet. It got along great with its owner's friends, but it was really more than a certain would-be burglar was expecting....

The (burglar gets a police-escorted ambulance ride to nearby hospital) Curtmudgeon

I never had anything that spectacular happen but my highly territorial 4 1/2 foot long B&W tegu once chased some Jehovah's Witnesses out of my house when they sat on her couch.

[rogue06]

[Quote=The Curtmudgeon]I have an anecdotal story of a FOAF that kept a wildcat (note: not a feral cat, but a lynx or something like it) as a pet. It got along great with its owner's friends, but it was really more than a certain would-be burglar was expecting....

The (burglar gets a police-escorted ambulance ride to nearby hospital) Curtmudgeon[/i]


:lmbo:

Years ago I knew an old man who kept a Bob cat as a pet. The man had a farm (now an office complex) not far outside of city limits and would pour a can of Pabst's Blue Ribbon in a bowl for the cat to drink. He claimed it had once killed two German Shepherds that thought they had 'treed' it.