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Trout
May 20th 2007, 07:57 PM
CRTL "Gonzales v. Carhart" Analysis

Colorado Right To Life
Summary of the Ruling Upholding
the Partial-birth Abortion Ban
By Pastor Bob Enyart
Denver Bible Church
(for Colorado Right to Life)

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/attachment.php?attachmentid=43058&stc=1&d=1180164385Shirley Dobson, on the day of the ruling, agreed with talk show host Hugh Hewitt that the Supreme Court upholding the partial-birth abortion ban, "is an answer to prayer." The tragedy, which she was unaware of, but which Hewitt as a lawyer should have known, is that not a single abortion, late-term or otherwise, has been or will be, canceled due to this ban. And THE BAN ITSELF NEVER HAD EVEN THE POSSIBILITY OF PREVENTING A SINGLE ABORTION. Fifteen years of focused effort went toward achieving this ban, and tens of millions of dollars have been raised to continue that long fight, and during those years U.S. abortionists have killed 20,000,000 children. And now that we have our PBA ban in place, law enforcement cannot use it to protect the life of even a single pre-born child. The justices of the 5-to-4 majority, all of whom were appointed by Ronald Reagan, George Bush, or George W. Bush, namely, Kennedy, Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, and Alito, rendered a ruling that has no moral component whatsoever and is merely regulatory. On page 30 at Section IV (A), these men optimistically suggest that, "The medical profession, furthermore, may find different and less shocking methods to abort the fetus in the second trimester, thereby accommodating legislative demand."

Our Christian leaders have misled millions into thinking this ban would prevent at least some abortions. In reality, pro-lifers volunteered, they made phone calls, and gave money, all to promote a ban that utterly lacked the authority to save even a single baby. Sadly, our leaders are not wiser than that. Rank-and-file pro-lifers were never told that this ban had no ability to actually save a child, and instead was a public relations event "to keep the issue in the news." But the children deserved better. Almost all our leaders, from the protestant Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family, to the Roman Catholic president of National Right to Life Wanda Franz, led Christians to believe that the PBA ban would reduce late term abortions. Two less-known syndicated Christian radio hosts, unnamed, were saying exactly that while celebrating this ruling until they took a call from Colorado Right To Life board member Lolita Hanks, RN, MS, who informed them that late-term abortionists will continue unabated under this ruling because the ban only prohibits a particular technique, and does NOT prohibit the murder of even a single child.

Even the justices themselves wrote, on page 26 at Section IV, that, "The question is whether the Act... imposes a substantial obstacle to late-term... abortions. The Act does not on its face impose a substantial obstacle..." The following analysis documents the ruling's repeated and aggressive affirmation of the right to kill unborn children, whether inside or significantly outside the womb, including by pulling the arms and legs of babies out of the birth canal and ripping them off. Many pro-lifers now celebrating would probably shed tears if they actually read the ruling itself. The opinion, quoted extensively below, is repeatedly vulgar in its affirmation of the brutal tearing apart of living unborn children. Section III (C) (1) for example, regarding the late-term abortion procedure called dilation and evacuation, which this ruling repeatedly upholds as remaining legal, states that "D&E will often involve a physician pulling a ‘substantial portion' of a still living fetus, say, an arm or leg, into the vagina prior to the death of the fetus." Then for the purpose of this current opinion, Kennedy, Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, and Alito ruled that, "the removal of a small portion [such as ‘of a still living fetus, say, an arm or leg,' first pulled outside of the mother, as far as up to the navel] of the fetus is not prohibited." (See documentation below).

Leaders and Ministries Celebrating the Ruling
National Right to Life (http://www.nrlc.org/press_releases_new/Release041807.html): "applauds... ruling"
Americans United for Life (http://www.unitedforlife.org/press_releases/070418.htm): "praises ruling"
Family Research Council (http://www.lifenews.com/nat3048.html): "Court no longer endorses... killing of innocent, partially-born babies"
Priests for Life (http://www.priestsforlife.org/pressreleases/07-04-18-pba-ban.htm): "we are grateful"
Wendy Wright of Concerned Women for America (http://www.cwfa.org/articles/12818/MEDIA/life/index.htm): "Court votes to protect babies from painful abortion"
Paul Schenck of D.C.'s National Pro-Life Action Center: "the Court... has begun to right (http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin364.htm) a terrible wrong"
Troy Newman of Operation Rescue (http://www.operationrescue.org/?p=615): "celebrates the... ruling... and hails the victory"
The Christian Coalition (http://www.cc.org/content.cfm?id=382): "commends the five justices"
American Family Association (http://www.afa.net/culture/GetArticle.asp?id=359) Gregory Rummo article: "reason has prevailed"
U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2007/07-068.shtml): "welcomes [the] decision"
Beverly LaHaye (http://www.cwfa.org/articles/12821/CWA/life/index.htm), founder CWA: "justice was served"
D. James Kennedy's Center for Reclaiming America (http://www.coralridge.org/specialdocs/StatementSupremeCourtRuling04182007.htm): "good news for unborn children... enormously good news"
Jay Sekulow of American Center for Law & Justice (http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=472): "happy to report... a significant victory"
Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family (http://listen.family.org/miscdaily/A000000461.cfm): "We thank God for this victory that affirms the value of human life"

Leaders and Ministries Condemning the Ruling
Ambassador Alan Keyes, RenewAmerica.us
American Life League and president Judie Brown
Editor Jim Rudd of CovenantNews.com
Operation Save America / Operation Rescue and director Flip Benham
John Archibald, founding board member, National Right to Life, Americans United for Life
Dr. Charles Rice, Professor Emeritus of Law at the University of Notre Dame
Editor John Lofton of The American View
Calvary Chapel South Denver pastor Gino Geraci
Ken & Jo Scott of ProLife Colorado
Crossroad Baptist Church pastor Chuck Baldwin
Brian Martin, on behalf of theologyweb.com
TheologyOnline.com (Google 8 of 30,100,000 for: theology)
Missionaries to the Preborn and founder Matt Trewhella
Colorado Right To Life and president Brian Rohrbough

(Other ministries wishing to be added to the list condemning the ruling, please email your contact information.)

Gonzales v. Carhart, April 18, 2007 (Upholding Congress' 2003 PBA Ban)

Verbatim quotes from the ruling follow, with all our comments appearing . Bold and underlined emphasis can bring the reader quickly to the key factual, and the most egregious, portions of the decision. (The entire ruling is here at SupremeCourtUS.gov (http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06pdf/05-380.pdf) and you can download for printing or emailing a .PDF file of the analysis you are now reading from KGOV.com (http://kgov.com/files/docs/CRTL-PBA-Ruling-Analysis.pdf).)

Justice Kennedy delivered the opinion of the Court.
[John Roberts, Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, and Samuel Alito joined.]

p.3, I (A)
Between 85 and 90 percent of the approximately 1.3 million abortions performed each year in the United States take place in the first three months of pregnancy, which is to say in the first trimester. The most common first-trimester abortion method is vacuum aspiration (otherwise known as suction curettage) in which the physician vacuums out the embryonic tissue.

pp. 3-4, I (A)
Of the remaining abortions that take place each year, most occur in the second trimester. The surgical procedure referred to as "dilation and evacuation" or "D&E" is the usual abortion method in this trimester.

p. 4, I (A) [The ruling will build upon this description of a procedure that remains legal as of this opinion.]
Some [doctors] may keep dilators in the cervix for two days, while others use dilators for a day or less... The doctor grips a fetal part with the forceps and pulls it back through the cervix and vagina, continuing to pull even after meeting resistance from the cervix. The friction causes the fetus to tear apart. For example, a leg might be ripped off the fetus as it is pulled through the cervix and out of the woman. The process of evacuating the fetus piece by piece continues until it has been completely removed.

p. 5, I (A)
Some doctors, especially later in the second trimester, may kill the fetus a day or two before performing the surgical evacuation. They inject digoxin or potassium chloride into the fetus, the umbilical cord, or the amniotic fluid. Fetal demise may cause contractions and make greater dilation possible. Once dead, moreover, the fetus' body will soften, and its removal will be easier. Other doctors refrain from injecting chemical agents, believing it adds risk with little or no medical benefit.

p. 6, I (A)
For discussion purposes this D&E variation will be referred to as [I]intact D&E. The main difference between the two procedures is that in intact D&E a doctor extracts the fetus intact or largely intact with only a few passes. There are no comprehensive statistics indicating what percentage of all D&Es are performed in this manner.

p. 6, I (A)
...the doctor extracts the fetus in a way conducive to pulling out its entire body, instead of ripping it apart. One doctor, for example, testified:
"If I know I have good dilation and I reach in and the fetus starts to come out and I think I can accomplish it, the abortion with an intact delivery, then I use my forceps a little bit differently. I don't close them quite so much, and I just gently draw the tissue out attempting to have an intact delivery, if possible."
Rotating the fetus as it is being pulled decreases the odds of dismemberment.

pp. 6-7, I (A)
A doctor also "may use forceps to grasp a fetal part, pull it down, and re-grasp the fetus at a higher level-sometimes using both his hand and a forceps-to exert traction to retrieve the fetus intact until the head is lodged in the [cervix]."

p. 7, I (A)
Intact D&E gained public notoriety when, in 1992, Dr. Martin Haskell gave a presentation describing his method of performing the operation. ...
"At this point, the right-handed surgeon slides the fingers of the left [hand] along the back of the fetus and ‘hooks' the shoulders of the fetus with the index and ring fingers (palm down). While maintaining this tension, lifting the cervix and applying traction to the shoulders with the fingers of the left hand, the surgeon takes a pair of bluntcurved Metzenbaum scissors in the right hand. He carefully advances the tip, curved down, along the spine and under his middle finger until he feels it contact the base of the skull under the tip of his middle finger. [T]he surgeon then forces the scissors into the base of the skull or into the foramen magnum. Having safely entered the skull, he spreads the scissors to enlarge the opening. The surgeon removes the scissors and introduces a suction catheter into this hole and evacuates the skull contents. With the catheter still in place, he applies traction to the fetus, removing it completely from the patient."

p. 7-8, I (A)
Here is another description from a nurse who witnessed the same method performed on a 26½-week fetus and who testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee:

p. 8, I (A)
"Dr. Haskell went in with forceps and grabbed the baby's legs and pulled them down into the birth canal. Then he delivered the baby's body and the arms-everything but the head. The doctor kept the head right inside the uterus... The baby's little fingers were clasping and unclasping, and his little feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors in the back of his head, and the baby's arms jerked out, like a startle reaction, like a flinch, like a baby does when he thinks he is going to fall. The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening, and sucked the baby's brains out. Now the baby went completely limp... He cut the umbilical cord and delivered the placenta. He threw the baby in a pan, along with the placenta and the instruments he had just used."

p. 8, I (A)
Dr. Haskell's approach is not the only method of killing the fetus once its head lodges in the cervix, and "the process has evolved" since his presentation. Planned Parenthood, 320 F. Supp. 2d, at 965.

p. 8, I (A)
Another doctor, for example, squeezes the skull after it has been pierced "so that enough brain tissue exudes to allow the head to pass through." ... Still other physicians reach into the cervix with their forceps and crush the fetus' skull. ... Others continue to pull the fetus out of the woman until it disarticulates at the neck, in effect decapitating it. These doctors then grasp the head with forceps, crush it, and remove it.

p. 9, I (A)
Yet one doctor would not allow delivery of a live fetus younger than 24 weeks because "the objective of [his] procedure is to perform an abortion," not a birth. ... The doctor thus answered in the affirmative when asked whether he would "hold the fetus' head on the internal side of the [cervix] in order to collapse the skull" and kill the fetus before it is born. ... Another doctor testified he crushes a fetus' skull not only to reduce its size but also to ensure the fetus is dead before it is removed. For the staff to have to deal with a fetus that has "some viability to it, some movement of limbs," according to this doctor, "[is] always a difficult situation."
[Thus PBA, which was one of the quickest ways to kill the baby, was also the most difficult to witness for staff, the pro-life community, and the general public. Other late-term techniques that remain legal are typically more painful for the child and impose longer suffering, but are less visibly obvious as the murder of a living child. This ban has no authority to save a single child's life, but what it does unwittingly is to push the crime of late-term abortion back into the darkness of the womb, where it lurks out of the public consciousness.]

p. 9, I (A)
Doctors also may abort a fetus through medical induction. The doctor medicates the woman to induce labor, and contractions occur to deliver the fetus. Induction, which unlike D&E should occur in a hospital, can last as little as 6 hours but can take longer than 48. It accounts for about five percent of second-trimester abortions before 20 weeks of gestation and 15 percent of those after 20 weeks. Doctors turn to two other methods of second-trimester abortion, hysterotomy and hysterectomy, only in emergency situations because they carry increased risk of complications. In a hysterotomy, as in a cesarean section, the doctor removes the fetus by making an incision through the abdomen and uterine wall to gain access to the uterine cavity. A hysterectomy requires the removal of the entire uterus. These two procedures represent about .07% of second-trimester abortions.

p. 10, I (B)
Congress found, among other things, that "[a] moral, medical, and ethical consensus exists that the practice of performing a partial-birth abortion ... is a gruesome and inhumane procedure that is never medically necessary and should be prohibited." Second, and more relevant here, the Act's language differs from that of the Nebraska statute struck down in Stenberg.

p. 11, I (B) [Quoting Congress' 2003 PBA Act]
This subsection does not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother...
[A doctor trying to save the mother's life never has to stop to first intentionally kill the baby. The PBA ban from its inception never had even the possibility of preventing a single abortion, and yet even at that, it contains horrendous and destructive particulars and precedents.]

pp. 15-16, II
[Any legal process, ruling, or law that violates Do not murder is inherently lawless and should be opposed. Meanwhile, this Section II excerpt implies that at least one justice in the future may rule against abortion itself (at least late-term), but is overruling and violating for now the ultimate legal principal Do not murder.]
We assume the following principles for the purposes of this opinion. Before viability, a State "may not prohibit any woman from making the ultimate decision to terminate her pregnancy." ... It also may not impose upon this right an undue burden which exists if a regulation's "purpose or effect is to place a substantial obstacle in the path of a woman seeking an abortion before the fetus attains viability." ... On the other hand, "[r]egulations which do no more than create a structural mechanism by which the State, or the parent or guardian of a minor, may express profound respect for the life of the unborn are permitted, if they are not a substantial obstacle to the woman's exercise of the right to choose." ... Casey, in short, struck a balance.... We now apply its standard to the cases at bar.

p. 16, III
In this litigation the Attorney General does not dispute that the Act would impose an undue burden if it covered standard D&E.

p. 17 III (A)
...the Act's definition of partial-birth abortion requires the fetus to be delivered "until... in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk [I]past the navel is outside the body of the mother."
[This could produce gruesome new abortion techniques, such as delivery to the naval, then killing the baby by stabbing him from belly to heart, or cutting off his legs for him to bleed to death, prior to final "extraction."]

p. 17 III (A)
For purposes of criminal liability, the overt act causing the fetus' death must be separate from delivery. And the overt act must occur after the delivery to an anatomical landmark.
[The PBA Ban Act and this ruling permit the abortionist to remove the baby up to the navel, and then kill him.]

p. 18 III (A)
If a living fetus is delivered past the critical point by accident or inadvertence, the Act is inapplicable. ...no crime has occurred.
[The abortionist can still perform a text-book PBA if he was attempting to remove the baby only to the navel, but it unintentionally slipped out farther, as Planned Parenthood testimony claims occurs occasionally when dilation is greater than expected. Of course an abortionist would have few witnesses to this, and could claim any intent, and possibly continue to perform PBAs as desired. As a bad law goes, this PBA ban never had even the possibility of preventing a single abortion, and further, it's not even a very effective prohibition of the procedure itself.]

p. 20, III (C)
We next determine whether the Act imposes an undue burden, as a facial matter, because its restrictions on second-trimester abortions are too broad... The Act prohibits intact D&E... it does not prohibit the D&E procedure in which the fetus is removed in parts.

p. 20, III (C) (1)
The Act's intent requirements, however, limit its reach to those physicians who carry out the intact D&E after intending to undertake both steps at the outset.

p. 20, III (C) (1)
The Act excludes most D&Es in which the fetus is removed in pieces, not intact.
[Late-term abortion remains legal. Throughout the 15 years that millions of Christian pro-lifers supported this effort, many, if not most, were led to believe that this PBA ban was going to outlaw all late-term abortions. The responsibility for that flow of misinformation and the wasted years, money, and blood, lies squarely with our local and national pro-life ministries, our "conservative" media personalities, and our Christian and pro-life leaders.]

p. 21, III (C) (1)
The statute in Stenberg prohibited "‘deliberately and intentionally delivering into the vagina a living unborn child, or a substantial portion thereof..." ... Congress, it is apparent, responded to these concerns because the Act departs in material ways from the statute in Stenberg. It adopts the phrase "delivers a living fetus," ...instead of "‘delivering... a living unborn child, or a substantial portion thereof..."
[The court identified changes in the PBA bans that help it meet with their approval, and they first list the change of "child" to "fetus." This ruling has no positive moral component, but is merely regulatory.]

p. 21, III (C) (1) [concurring with their Stenberg ruling from 2000:]
"D&E will often involve a physician pulling a ‘substantial portion' of a still living fetus, say, an arm or leg, into the vagina prior to the death of the fetus."

p. 22, III (C) (1)
...the removal of a small portion [such as "say, an arm or leg"] of the fetus is not prohibited.

p. 23, III (C) (1)
The fatal overt act must occur after delivery to an anatomical landmark [the navel]...
[As long as the abortionist delivers the baby only to his navel, killing him at that point remains absolutely legal, and according to the justices, it is that very fact that leads them to uphold this PBA ban.]

p. 24, III (C) (2)
...respondents say... doctors cannot predict the amount the cervix will dilate before the abortion procedure. It might dilate to a degree that the fetus will be removed largely intact. To complete the abortion, doctors will commit an overt act that kills the partially delivered fetus. Respondents thus posit that any D&E has the potential to violate the Act... Brief for Respondent Planned Parenthood... This reasoning, however, does not take account of the Act's intent requirements, which preclude liability from attaching to an accidental intact D&E.
["Accidental" partial-birth abortions remain legal, and the great majority of such "accidents" would likely never even be reported to authorities by the abortion clinic staff or the mother.]

p. 26, III (C) (2) [Now that the court has upheld the PBA Ban Act, the law will simply be]
Respondents have not shown that requiring doctors to intend dismemberment before delivery to an anatomical landmark [past the navel] will prohibit the vast majority of D&E abortions. [Therefore, exactly because late-term abortion remains legal with this ruling, the justices reasoned:] The Act, then, cannot be held invalid...

p. 26, IV
Under the principles accepted as controlling here [principles which violate, Do not murder], the Act, as we have interpreted it, would be unconstitutional "if its purpose or effect is to place a substantial obstacle in the path of a woman seeking an abortion before the fetus attains viability."

p. 26, IV
The question is whether the Act, measured by its text in this facial attack, imposes a substantial obstacle to late-term, but previability, abortions. The Act does not on its face impose a substantial obstacle...

p. 27, IV (A)
Under our precedents it is clear the State has a significant role to play in regulating the medical profession.
[This majority upheld this ruling because it is merely "regulating" a technique. As to the actual issue of the personhood of the child, and the murder of the innocent, consider what Justice Antonin Scalia said (http://pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resources/transcript3.php3) on Feb. 4, 2002 at a Pew Forum on Religion, Politics, and the Death Penalty. "[T]he only one of my religious views that has anything to do with my job as a judge is the seventh commandment - thou shalt not lie. ... I will strike down Roe v. Wade, but I will also strike down a law that is the opposite of Roe v. Wade. ... One [side] wants no state to be able to prohibit abortion and the other one wants every state to have to prohibit abortion, and they're both wrong..." All Christians should grieve at this. That is not pro-life, it is pro-choice, by process. Scalia, a hero of the pro-life community, hereby grotesquely rejects God's enduring command, Do Not Murder, as the most fundamental of all legal principles. What is the good of not lying, if you then honestly rule to kill the innocent? Our pro-life and Christian leaders have turned the wicked humanist values of moral relativism and legal positivism into the greatest obligation of government. And many conservative judges, who grew up with an inclination toward Judeo-Christian morality and absolutes, could have developed into heroes of life, but instead, they utterly destroy the ultimate legal defense of the unborn, which is not based upon following an arbitrary, man-made, legal process, but only upon personhood and the God-given right to life.]

p. 29, IV (A)
...some doctors may prefer not to disclose precise details of the means that will be used, confining themselves to the required statement of risks the procedure entails. From one standpoint this ought not to be surprising. Any number of patients facing imminent surgical procedures would prefer not to hear all details, lest the usual anxiety preceding invasive medical procedures become the more intense. This is likely the case with the abortion procedures here in issue.
[Kennedy, affirmed by Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, and Alito, thus trivializes the grotesque particulars of ripping apart a living baby by comparing it to getting queasy by talk of incisions and blood."]

p. 30, IV (A)
The medical profession, furthermore, may find different and less shocking methods to abort the fetus in the second trimester, thereby accommodating legislative demand.
[This Gonzales v. Carhart opinion is NOT a pro-life victory. To claim so is ignorance or worse. And Colorado Right To Life is committed to dispelling any such ignorance from the movement. There will be opposing camps, but neither side will be able to claim ignorance to the radically pro-abortion findings of this PBA ruling, nor to the utter inability of the PBA ban to protect a single unborn child. Regulating murder is always wrong, and we find it here to be foolhardy also, and the error of regulating murder is not only evident in the ill-conceived PBA ban, but in every example of compromised incrementalism where "pro-life" laws further erode the personhood of the child by concluding with the meaning, "and then you can kill the baby.". The "conservative" Supreme Court justices are NOT "moving toward life" as our leaders claim. Rather, the pro-life campaign around the ban, and now around its ruling, is instead a public relations ploy to convince pro-lifers that our ministry leaders are effective and worthy to receive continued donations and support. These justices actually make their own public relations suggestion, that the abortionists might find a less shocking method to kill older children. Congratulations to the ACLJ and Jay Sekulow.]

p. 30, IV (A)
It is objected that the standard D&E is in some respects as brutal, if not more, than the intact D&E...
[After making this observation, the justices do not even attempt to rebut this objection. Their only comment has to do, not with the brutality against the child, but with "the public's perception." Of course, PBA was less "brutal" (it was far quicker and more painless) than the more common, painful, prolonged, and now legally preferred, techniques to kill older kids. Perhaps our Christian leaders will now launch a new 15-year campaign to outlaw some other method, and while they unwittingly continue to undermine the personhood of the child, we will spill the blood of another 20,000,000 kids, after which we pro-lifers can all celebrate another great victory.]

p. 30-37, IV (B) [This section regards PBA and the "health of the mother."]

p. 33, IV (B)
Physicians are not entitled to ignore regulations that direct them to use reasonable alternative procedures.
[Typical of the extreme hubris of humanism, even the "conservative" justices feel safe ignoring God's enduring command, Do not murder, but no abortionist should dare ignore their regulation on how to kill a child. This is the fruit of a quarter-century of Christian legal-positivism on "our own" judges. Thus these "pro-life" judges refer to "the removal of a small portion [such as "say, an arm or leg"] of the fetus" as a "reasonable alternative" procedure.]

p. 33, IV (B)
In Casey the controlling opinion held an informed-consent requirement in the abortion context was "no different from a requirement that a doctor give certain specific information about any medical procedure."
[Fifteen years after pro-lifers celebrated our misguided "Casey" effort, the "conservative" justices, conditioned by our own pro-life efforts, are more entrenched than ever in viewing abortion as a regulatory matter and having NOTHING to do with personhood or a God-given right to life.]

p. 34, IV (B) [partly quoting the National Abortion Federation as though it were legitimate:]
"[e]xperts testifying for both sides" agreed D&E was safe.
["Pro-life" justices call D&E safe? It has a greater than fifty percent fatality rate.]

p. 34-35, IV (B)
If the intact D&E procedure [PBA] is truly necessary in some circumstances, it appears likely an injection that kills the fetus is an alternative under the Act that allows the doctor to perform the procedure.
[Some pro-lifers who actually read this ruling weep upon realizing they squandered the blood of children killed by partial-birth abortion on a sham victory. Consistent with past behavior, it is likely that many pro-life leaders will not read this ruling either, making it easier for them to celebrate what is actually evil.]

p. 35, IV (B)
...the Act... does not construct a substantial obstacle to the abortion right.
[Gonzales v. Carhart also here calls abortion rights "constitutional rights," and throughout the ruling reaffirms the "right" to kill an unborn child, further entrenching child killing in legal precedent, and even in the precedent of "conservative" judges, who have a far greater commitment to their own wicked rulings than to God's enduring command, Do not murder. Thus, every time pro-lifers give "our own" justices an opportunity to regulate child-killing, by the force of judicial arrogance, we push those justices even farther from ever outlawing abortion based upon personhood and the God-give right to life.

p. 36, IV (B)
...legitimate abortion regulations [fall] under the Commerce Clause...


p. 37-38, V [This Section addressed the "life of the mother" exception to the PBA ban.]
...the proper means to consider exceptions [to the ban] is by as-applied challenge. The Government has acknowledged that preenforcement, as-applied challenges to the Act [are] the proper manner to protect the health of the woman if it can be shown that in discrete and well-defined instances a particular condition has or is likely to occur in which the procedure prohibited by the Act must be used... The Act is open to a proper as-applied challenge in a discrete case.

p. 38, V
No as-applied challenge need be brought if the prohibition in the Act threatens a woman's life because the Act already contains a life exception.
[Of course, if a mother's life were truly at risk, the doctor would never need to further complicate matters by delaying delivery of the baby long enough to first kill it. Further, doctors often perform a Caesarian section in an emergency, and that of course requires no intermediate step to intentionally kill the baby.]

-End of Excerpts-

We conclude this summary with examples of how pro-life ministries are misrepresenting Gonzales v. Carhart. Nikolas Nikas, president of the pro-life Bioethics Defense Fund, praised this ruling with a celebratory press release (http://www.bdfund.org/_Buzz_Article_.asp?BuzzID=24) which opened with this quote from the decision:

"The government may use its voice and its regulatory authority to show its profound respect for the life within the woman." -[I] Justice Kennedy, majority opinion, Gonzales v. Carhart issued 4/18/2007The Bioethics Defense Fund misleads pro-lifers even with this quote, which is NOT a new finding. (It appears in the ruling at p. 27, Section IV, A.). The justices regurgitate this from the 1992 Casey decision, and since that decision celebrated by pro-lifers as a victory 15 years ago, U.S. abortionists have killed 20,000,000 children. The current decision is purely regulatory, and further destroys personhood and the child's right to life.

(Pro & Con Lists Repeated):

Leaders and Ministries Celebrating the Ruling
National Right to Life (http://www.nrlc.org/press_releases_new/Release041807.html): "applauds... ruling"
Americans United for Life (http://www.unitedforlife.org/press_releases/070418.htm): "praises ruling"
Family Research Council (http://www.lifenews.com/nat3048.html): "Court no longer endorses... killing of innocent, partially-born babies"
Priests for Life (http://www.priestsforlife.org/pressreleases/07-04-18-pba-ban.htm): "we are grateful"
Wendy Wright of Concerned Women for America (http://www.cwfa.org/articles/12818/MEDIA/life/index.htm): "Court votes to protect babies from painful abortion"
Paul Schenck of D.C.'s National Pro-Life Action Center: "the Court... has begun to right (http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin364.htm) a terrible wrong"
Troy Newman of Operation Rescue (http://www.operationrescue.org/?p=615): "celebrates the... ruling... and hails the victory"
The Christian Coalition (http://www.cc.org/content.cfm?id=382): "commends the five justices"
American Family Association (http://www.afa.net/culture/GetArticle.asp?id=359) Gregory Rummo article: "reason has prevailed"
U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2007/07-068.shtml): "welcomes [the] decision"
Beverly LaHaye (http://www.cwfa.org/articles/12821/CWA/life/index.htm), founder CWA: "justice was served"
D. James Kennedy's Center for Reclaiming America (http://www.coralridge.org/specialdocs/StatementSupremeCourtRuling04182007.htm): "good news for unborn children... enormously good news"
Jay Sekulow of American Center for Law & Justice (http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=472): "happy to report... a significant victory"
Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family (http://listen.family.org/miscdaily/A000000461.cfm): "We thank God for this victory that affirms the value of human life"

Leaders and Ministries Condemning the Ruling
Ambassador Alan Keyes, RenewAmerica.us
American Life League and president Judie Brown
Editor Jim Rudd of CovenantNews.com
Operation Save America / Operation Rescue and director Flip Benham
John Archibald, founding board member, National Right to Life, Americans United for Life
Dr. Charles Rice, Professor Emeritus of Law at the University of Notre Dame
Editor John Lofton of The American View
Calvary Chapel South Denver pastor Gino Geraci
Ken & Jo Scott of ProLife Colorado
Crossroad Baptist Church pastor Chuck Baldwin
Brian Martin, on behalf of theologyweb.com
TheologyOnline.com (Google 8 of 30,100,000 for: theology)
Missionaries to the Preborn and founder Matt Trewhella
Colorado Right To Life and president Brian Rohrbough

(Other ministries wishing to be added to the list condemning the ruling, please email your contact information.)

The partial birth abortion ban has no authority to save even a single child but instead it pushes the killing of late-term babies back into the darkness and out of public view. Thus we have squandered the blood of every child killed by partial-birth abortion using their deaths, not to push for a law that will save any children, but for publicity. And we have helped the abortion industry present itself as more humane by robbing ourselves of the most powerful visual weapon we would ever have to convince people of the wickedness of abortion, namely, the blood of the children being killed out in the open for all to see.
Christ has saved us, those of us who trust in Him. But He has not yet redeemed our flesh, which draws all of us toward sin, until we go to be with the Lord. Rank-and-file pro-lifers must raise their voices to insist that our leaders stop misleading us about pro-life strategy. The children deserve better.

Pastor Bob Enyart
Bob Enyart Live (http://kgov.com/)
Denver Bible Church (http://denverbiblechurch.org/enyart.html)
(for Colorado Right to Life)
Please sign the CRTL pledge (http://coloradorighttolife.org/40YearsPledge.htm) titled 40 Years/50 Million Dead/One Commitment.

Amazing Rando
May 20th 2007, 09:01 PM
:huh:

Trout
May 20th 2007, 09:49 PM
:huh:

There is a coding issue, cir is working on it.

yxboom
May 26th 2007, 02:44 AM
The formatting has been fixed .

Jimmy Higgins
May 29th 2007, 09:33 AM
Honestly, I had no idea why the anti-abortion people were parading around about this judgment. From day one all this stuff was rather clear. And as far as my understanding, this article isn't even pessimistic enough about the reality of the situation.

lao tzu
May 29th 2007, 10:34 AM
Who is Brian Martin?

dizzle
May 29th 2007, 06:50 PM
Honestly, I had no idea why the anti-abortion people were parading around about this judgment. From day one all this stuff was rather clear. And as far as my understanding, this article isn't even pessimistic enough about the reality of the situation.

We agree on something. :faint:

JonLanceBarker
May 29th 2007, 10:22 PM
well, i suppose some small victory can be salvaged...it's a very small legal foot shuffle in the right direction.
if we can't go right through the front door, we've got to make our way through the back.
please, pray for the pregnancy care centers as they work to save tiny lives from abortion and fathers and mothers from committing murder.
pray for them as they teach new families to value both Creator and creation.

Swardus
June 7th 2007, 07:53 AM
It's a step in the right direction on a very long road. But it would seem to me that abortion is unconstitutional as stated in the Preamble: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." It's my understanding that Pres. Lyndon Johnson used the part "...promote the general welfare..." to justify creating the Welfare System. So, Logically, "...to ourselves and our posterity, ..." is as must part of the constitution as all of the articles and amendments, and therefore carries the same legal weight! All of the verbs In this Preamble are present tense, which denotes the here and now without any exclusions. So, our "posterity", i.e., "the unborn", are being stripped of there constitutional rights which exist -even before they are conceived! I wish that people will take notice of this fact found in a document which is memorized by every school-age child in the nation.

dizzle
June 7th 2007, 07:59 AM
Good point on the posterity thing Swardus

Abelard
June 7th 2007, 11:52 AM
The sooner we move away from the anti-abortion industry power brokers and go back to teaching the difference between love and sex the better it will be for everybody.

rhutchin
June 7th 2007, 08:34 PM
Anyone can complain. Few are able to outline a program of actions to do away with abortion that is politiclaly and culturally feasible.

Enyart has proved himself to be a complainer. What we need are visionaries of which there are few if any. Attacking the partial abortion procedure was better than anything Enyart has come up with.

rhutchin
June 7th 2007, 08:36 PM
The sooner we move away from the anti-abortion industry power brokers and go back to teaching the difference between love and sex the better it will be for everybody.

Good idea. Tell us how you are personally involved in that effort so we can all emulate your efforts.

JonLanceBarker
June 7th 2007, 10:42 PM
Good idea. Tell us how you are personally involved in that effort so we can all emulate your efforts.

well, i don't know how Abelard is personally involved, but my church finances a pregnancy care center in our city.
i'd say that's a good thing to emulate. :pray:

Abelard
June 8th 2007, 09:38 AM
Good idea. Tell us how you are personally involved in that effort so we can all emulate your efforts.

I teach Sunday School, and we do discuss "rompin'". How about you, rhutchin? I think Rompin' Rhutchin sounds alright - you'd probably do a good job teaching middle schoolers!

JonLanceBarker
June 8th 2007, 10:31 PM
I teach Sunday School, and we do discuss "rompin'". How about you, rhutchin? I think Rompin' Rhutchin sounds alright - you'd probably do a good job teaching middle schoolers!

umm...i was hoping we might avoid that sort of brotherly name-calling here.
sure, let's all jump on rhutchin because he's tired of hearing complaints without solutions.

Abelard
June 9th 2007, 01:34 AM
Maybe that didn't come out right. Rompin' is the kids term for sex, and I was trying to be playful.

I certainly didn't intend to call Rhutchin a name or be insulting. I was trying to inject a little levity, but I see now my post was less than clear. I truly apologize if it sounded unkind.

Being good with middle schoolers is a compliment in my book. That is who I teach and it's a hard age. Their brains tell them they are grown up, society tells them they are still kiddies, and then they get hormones dumped in on top of everything.

Thanks for pointing that out, Lance. I did a really poor job of communicating what I intended.

Yankee_Doodle
June 9th 2007, 05:53 AM
It's a step in the right direction on a very long road. But it would seem to me that abortion is unconstitutional as stated in the Preamble: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." It's my understanding that Pres. Lyndon Johnson used the part "...promote the general welfare..." to justify creating the Welfare System. So, Logically, "...to ourselves and our posterity, ..." is as must part of the constitution as all of the articles and amendments, and therefore carries the same legal weight! All of the verbs In this Preamble are present tense, which denotes the here and now without any exclusions. So, our "posterity", i.e., "the unborn", are being stripped of there constitutional rights which exist -even before they are conceived! I wish that people will take notice of this fact found in a document which is memorized by every school-age child in the nation.

I'm not sure this particular argument would ever win the day.....but I do know that abortion regulation is properly the police power of the individual states (as is all regulation concerning the health & welfare of citizens). To find a privacy right inside the womb must be the most convoluted legal decision in history. However, one should realize that even total victory at the supreme court would only be a beginning. Most states would keep abortion legal (exactly how it is today). Moreover, as we saw pre-Roe banning abortion probably won't cut down on the number of abortions in a dramatic way. I have a mixed opinion on this issue; but I certainly agree Roe was bad law and PBA is horrific. I don't see anything getting done unless Christians are able to reach females who are considering this procedure & offer them a viable alternative. Everything else is just whining & complaining as rhutch said. Who will care for the more than one million orphaned infants every year? I think the ability exists within the Christian community but we keep hoping Uncle Sam will relieve of us of the duty to provide an answer (beyone picketting, shouting, complaining, harrassing, but getting nothing accomplished except hollow legal decisions like this one).

AW

Dr. Jack Bauer
June 9th 2007, 06:06 AM
I have a mixed opinion on this issue; but I certainly agree Roe was bad law and PBA is horrific. I don't see anything getting done unless Christians are able to reach females who are considering this procedure & offer them a viable alternative. Everything else is just whining & complaining as rhutch said. Who will care for the more than one million orphaned infants every year? I think the ability exists within the Christian community but we keep hoping Uncle Sam will relieve of us of the duty to provide an answer (beyone picketting, shouting, complaining, harrassing, but getting nothing accomplished except hollow legal decisions like this one).

AW

That's ridiculous and immoral. If abortion is wrong because it is unjustifiable homicide, then you're saying that we shouldn't whine about homicide unless we are prepared, ourselves, to help the perpetrator and/or house/care for the victim.

I reject that outright, as would anyone with moral sense after serious reflection - hopefully including you.

Yankee_Doodle
June 9th 2007, 11:11 AM
That's ridiculous and immoral. If abortion is wrong because it is unjustifiable homicide, then you're saying that we shouldn't whine about homicide unless we are prepared, ourselves, to help the perpetrator and/or house/care for the victim.

I reject that outright, as would anyone with moral sense after serious reflection - hopefully including you.

Fair enough; actually I do oppose abortion. However, I was merely pointing out the reality. First, legally banning the practice will not solve the problem. Of course we can assume that pro-choice groups exaggerate the number of illegal abortions pre-Roe as pro-life groups probably understate the number. The first anti-abortion statutes began to appear in the U.S. in the 1820's. These laws generally started by targeting dubious vendors who were selling what were essentially "poisons" to terminate a pregnancy. The criminalization movement began in the 1860's. Notwithstanding the inflated numbers of "back-alley abortion" deaths often cited by pro-choice groups (of between 5 - 10,000 per year) the average number of annual deaths due to illegal abortions between 1940 - 1970 was around 1,500 (this tries to account for under-reporting of causation). This was still a high number IMO. The number of illegal abortions prior to Roe v. Wade is assumed to have been between 200,000 and 1.2 million (the disparity is obviously due to the unavailability of any reliable data). However, most unbiased researchers assume it was roughly consistent with the number of abortions we see today (when calculated as a percentage of the population). Therefore, legalization has done little to impact the numbers (remember that "the pill" [progesterone] was available since the 1940's and the diaphragm and condom was available much earlier...although it's wide availability was banned in some states until the landmark decision Griswald v. CT in 1965...however, even after the wide availability of birth control the number of abortions were still consistent with the numbers we see today, as a percentage of the population).

Therefore, we can reasonably assume that illegalization will not significantly reduce the number of abortions nationwide (especially these days). Moreover, overturning Roe and sending it back to the states will likely not result in illegalization (at least in the vast majority of states) & a federal law banning abortion would likely fail a federalism challenge. Therefore, a new approach & strategy is IMO required. This is what I was pointing out. I share opposition to abortion but I unlike most who share this view understand that government has rarely served as a solution to social problems.

This is why I favor a realigned approach; focusing on reaching females considering abortion and building an infrastructure that is equipped to provide a real alternative (namely adoption, foster care, and orphanages). So anyone can say what they want about me or the few that share my view; but all I see from the way things are now is: hate, exploitation by politicians, and absolutely nothing being accomplished. My interest is in actually saving these lives, not punishment and not enforcing a subjective moral principal (that runs counter to the separation clause, which I strongly support along with the rest of our constitutional rights). With tens of millions of potential lives lost I would think there's others out there like me who are frustrated with the failed approach of the pro-life movement to date. I'm not calling for abondoning the push to overturn Roe. Rather I'm hoping for a shift of our focus to save these lives that are being lost under our noses. We can still support pro-life politicians; but we can also shift our time & money into productive endevours that will really save lives...I would hope most could agree with this?

This sort of goes to my approach to charity in general. Take the focus of charity to Africa to date. It has been on giving hands outs, not providing a hand up. I saw a program on a wonderful pharmacy franchise in Africa that was started by a frustrated American corporate lawyer. These are the sort of efforts Christians ought to focus their support on. A hand out is fine; but we need to build networks that can provide real long term solutions. How else can we combat for example the spread of Islam in Africa if not by being the living example of mercy that Christ calls us to be (rather than focusing on divisiveness)? We must be a permenant presense in the lives of all people, not just the occassional guy or gal who is handing them food (but then leaving them to the tyranny of Muslim extremists). The same goes for abortion. Do we want our lasting impression in some young girl, who is going through probably the worse part of her life, to be shouts of baby killer and heathen? Or do we want to show her the love of Christ and provide her a REAL alternative? That IMO is the real question.

AW

Amazing Rando
June 9th 2007, 11:20 AM
It's about being prepared to give of ourselves so that others might live. I think he's got a point. We can't just "whinge" (to use a Socrates word- remember him?) about how much we hate abortion and do nothing else. To be truly faithful to our Christian calling, we need to stand up and give self-sacrificially and in order to promote viable alternatives to women (and men!) who choose life instead of abortion. Christian crisis pregnancy centers, Christian families being more open to the possibility of adoption, and churches being willing to support needy single mothers financially, spiritually, and personally are essential aspects of a faithful Christian response, just as confronting people with the immorality of the abortion industry is. But we've got to be more than just morality police. We've got to be willing to suffer ourselves and, for the sake of the unborn child, bear the burdens of the desperate, needy souls who find themselves contemplating abortion.

Amazing Rando
June 9th 2007, 11:31 AM
Fair enough; actually I do oppose abortion. However, I was merely pointing out the reality. First, legally banning the practice will not solve the problem. Of course we can assume that pro-choice groups exaggerate the number of illegal abortions pre-Roe as pro-life groups probably understate the number. The first anti-abortion statutes began to appear in the U.S. in the 1820's. These laws generally started by targeting dubious vendors who were selling what were essentially "poisons" to terminate a pregnancy. The criminalization movement began in the 1860's. Notwithstanding the inflated numbers of "back-alley abortion" deaths often cited by pro-choice groups (of between 5 - 10,000 per year) the average number of annual deaths due to illegal abortions between 1940 - 1970 was around 1,500 (this tries to account for under-reporting of causation). This was still a high number IMO. The number of illegal abortions prior to Roe v. Wade is assumed to have been between 200,000 and 1.2 million (the disparity is obviously due to the unavailability of any reliable data). However, most unbiased researchers assume it was roughly consistent with the number of abortions we see today (when calculated as a percentage of the population). Therefore, legalization has done little to impact the numbers (remember that "the pill" [progesterone] was available since the 1940's and the diaphragm and condom was available much earlier...although it's wide availability was banned in some states until the landmark decision Griswald v. CT in 1965...however, even after the wide availability of birth control the number of abortions were still consistent with the numbers we see today, as a percentage of the population).

Therefore, we can reasonably assume that illegalization will not significantly reduce the number of abortions nationwide (especially these days). Moreover, overturning Roe and sending it back to the states will likely not result in illegalization (at least in the vast majority of states) & a federal law banning abortion would likely fail a federalism challenge. Therefore, a new approach & strategy is IMO required. This is what I was pointing out. I share opposition to abortion but I unlike most who share this view understand that government has rarely served as a solution to social problems.

This is why I favor a realigned approach; focusing on reaching females considering abortion and building an infrastructure that is equipped to provide a real alternative (namely adoption, foster care, and orphanages). So anyone can say what they want about me or the few that share my view; but all I see from the way things are now is: hate, exploitation by politicians, and absolutely nothing being accomplished. My interest is in actually saving these lives, not punishment and not enforcing a subjective moral principal (that runs counter to the separation clause, which I strongly support along with the rest of our constitutional rights). With tens of millions of potential lives lost I would think there's others out there like me who are frustrated with the failed approach of the pro-life movement to date.

AW

:thumb: Particularly on the part about governments rarely serving as a solution to social problems.

I read in Hauerwas and Willimon's Resident Aliens (I think that's where it was, anyway) about an abortion clinic with hundreds of people outside shouting "Abortion is Murder!" and holding up enormous signs graphically depicting aborted fetuses, haranguing everyone who entered or left the clinic, calling them names, spitting at them, and shoving leaflets with graphically aborted fetuses on it into their faces. That was on one side of the street.

On the other side of the street stood a solitary woman, standing silently and holding up a small sign that read "I will adopt your baby."

It's that second form of protest that strikes me as more faithful to the kingdom and to the paradigm Jesus set for us to emulate.

dizzle
June 9th 2007, 11:51 AM
... bear the burdens of the desperate, needy souls who find themselves contemplating abortion.

Sorry Rando, I hate to come down on you, but that saccharine nonsense does nothing but promote a misty-eyed unreality. Here is the FACT. MOST women (not all) who seek abortion are NOT "desparate needy souls." Get a freakin' grip. SOME are, but MOST are not. MOST are as I was - irresponsible selfish women who simply care about themselves more than the human life they are carrying. That is the reality. Yes, I know it doesn't inspire doe-eyes and tissues, but it is the truth, which is preferable.

dizzle
June 9th 2007, 11:53 AM
Before anyone in this thread dares to say rape is wrong, please demonstrate to me how often you volunteer to take on the burden of a rapists rehabilitation and leave him alone with your daughters.

This really gets me incensed. THESE ARE BABIES THAT ARE BEING SLAUGHTERED.

dizzle
June 9th 2007, 11:59 AM
Therefore, we can reasonably assume that illegalization will not significantly reduce the number of abortions nationwide (especially these days).

And I think that is absolutely unsupportable. It is patently false that legalization does not have an impact on behaviour. I can appeal to vast personal experience in this realm. You can bet your biscuits that I wouldn't have murdered two of my children if it weren't legal. Neither would have multiple family members I know. In fact I would say about of my peer group the number of women I know who have had abortions is staggering - none of these women would have done it illegally.

Legalization is a huge misogynistic lie that is a large part of turning women into murderers of their own children.

Amazing Rando
June 9th 2007, 12:09 PM
Sorry Rando, I hate to come down on you, but that saccharine nonsense does nothing but promote a misty-eyed unreality. Here is the FACT. MOST women (not all) who seek abortion are NOT "desparate needy souls." Get a freakin' grip. SOME are, but MOST are not. MOST are as I was - irresponsible selfish women who simply care about themselves more than the human life they are carrying. That is the reality. Yes, I know it doesn't inspire doe-eyes and tissues, but it is the truth, which is preferable.

Certainly many do act out of purely selfish motivations with no regard for the life growing inside them. I just hope to promote awareness that the reality is not always so simple as demonizing and condemning the woman (though that does seem appropriate in some cases). While some are as you describe, some are coerced, deceived, bullied, and otherwise forced into corners where they perceive no viable alternative. They are frequently ignored or condemned by the church rather than reached out to.

This really gets me incensed.

Yes, I can tell by your screaming in all caps. Perhaps I should take my leave if it enrages you so much.

THESE ARE BABIES THAT ARE BEING SLAUGHTERED.

Have a good day!
:outtie:

dizzle
June 9th 2007, 12:41 PM
Certainly many do act out of purely selfish motivations with no regard for the life growing inside them. I

Most.

Yes, I can tell by your screaming in all caps. Perhaps I should take my leave if it enrages you so much.

I pity anyone who doesn't think the murder of children by their mothers isn't something to "scream" about. The minute I start talking about this dispassionately or painting things in unrealistic shades of rose, is the day I have lost any heart.

They are frequently ignored or condemned by the church rather than reached out to.

Oh come on. It is so fashionable today to do the Christian self-flaggelation thing, but quite frankly, my experience is that this is false. And really, the lack of rapist programs in the church disturbs me. What about those desparate hurting souls? (that is sarcasm for those impaired in that department). Where were the Nazi outreach programs for those desparate Germans who were put into the untenable situation of having to be forced into killing Jews (more sarcasm for those still impaired after the last sentence)

I am so glad I don't think Christians suck that much.

lao tzu
June 9th 2007, 01:07 PM
Fair enough; actually I do oppose abortion. However, I was merely pointing out the reality. <snip>

Two out of three ain't good (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=67244)

The above thread is a bit dusty, but I'd appreciate your input if you'd like to try to resurrect it.

As ever, Jesse

Yankee_Doodle
June 9th 2007, 01:11 PM
:thumb: Particularly on the part about governments rarely serving as a solution to social problems.

I read in Hauerwas and Willimon's Resident Aliens (I think that's where it was, anyway) about an abortion clinic with hundreds of people outside shouting "Abortion is Murder!" and holding up enormous signs graphically depicting aborted fetuses, haranguing everyone who entered or left the clinic, calling them names, spitting at them, and shoving leaflets with graphically aborted fetuses on it into their faces. That was on one side of the street.

On the other side of the street stood a solitary woman, standing silently and holding up a small sign that read "I will adopt your baby."

It's that second form of protest that strikes me as more faithful to the kingdom and to the paradigm Jesus set for us to emulate.

That's an excellent example....thanks

AW

Amazing Rando
June 9th 2007, 01:42 PM
That's an excellent example....thanks

AW

Two books that really helped me come to see this were Stanley Hauerwas and William Willimon's Resident Aliens: Life in the Christian Colony (http://www.amazon.com/Resident-Aliens-Life-Christian-Colony/dp/0687361591/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product/104-5912558-6448729) (see chapter 4 on a more ecclesiological, "church-centered" solution to the abortion issue), and Richard Hays' The Moral Vision of the New Testament: Community, Cross, New Creation, A Contemporary Introduction to New Testament Ethics (http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Vision-New-Testament-Contemporary/dp/006063796X/ref=sr_1_2/104-5912558-6448729?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181410722&sr=1-2) (chapter 18 on a way to fight abortion more in line with the cross of Christ). Both are by Methodist pastor/scholars, so I think they might resonate with you.

Yankee_Doodle
June 9th 2007, 01:43 PM
Most.



I pity anyone who doesn't think the murder of children by their mothers isn't something to "scream" about. The minute I start talking about this dispassionately or painting things in unrealistic shades of rose, is the day I have lost any heart.



Oh come on. It is so fashionable today to do the Christian self-flaggelation thing, but quite frankly, my experience is that this is false. And really, the lack of rapist programs in the church disturbs me. What about those desparate hurting souls? (that is sarcasm for those impaired in that department). Where were the Nazi outreach programs for those desparate Germans who were put into the untenable situation of having to be forced into killing Jews (more sarcasm for those still impaired after the last sentence)

I am so glad I don't think Christians suck that much.

First DZ I understand you're anger & I also realize that many of these women in fact simply don't want to be inconvenienced by the rigors of a pregnancy. However, only about 27% of women cite this as a reason for their abortive choice. Well over a third are financially and emotionally ill equipped to handle child rearing. The balance have an abortion for a variety of other reasons (e.g. abusive relationships, parental fear, etc.). Therefore, your assertions don't tell the whole story.....

My view extends far beyond simply how to handle abortion. I think women that are disposed to abortion have not been exposed to faith in Christ in a real way. What do we have today? When I go into a protestant service or catholic mass (and I've been aptly exposed to both) what I see is very few people in their 20's or 30's attending either by theirself or with friends. I see either baby boomer (or perhaps slightly younger) parents with young children or senior citizens knocking on deaths door. Why is this? I blame this first and foremost on poor theological teaching. I think the notion, taught by most churches; that one can hope to enter the kingdom by living a heathen life and then proclaiming at the moment of death "I believe" is probably inaccurate (or at least not true of those who became saved much earlier).

IMO Holiness and entire sanctification are required "during life" to enter the kingdom (as Christ said we must be more righteous than a Pharisee if we are to enter His kingdom). Will God blame people for their ignorance? I'm sure it depends on many factors (none of which any of us can proclaim to know). However, I think idea's such as perseverance, the sort of fatalism of Catholicism or Calvinism, or the notion of "once saved always saved" have poisoned the well of Western Christianity. I'm not of the school that it's my church or hell (in fact I think that's somewhat of a bigotted view). However, I think poor Biblical teaching is the starting place for the dysfunctions we see in Christianity today. The next critical factor is that most parents don't practice what they preach. They bring their kids to church, but do they Bible study theirselves; and do they really have unrelenting faith? Because those who don't are living in a dream world if they expect their children to have it. Additionally, do most people really understand we're all sinners? That is how many teenage girls can count on love & compassion if she comes home and declares daddy I'm pregnant (which of course would be much less likely to happen if that girl understood the true level of holiness that Christ demands of His faithful)? Finally, how many churches go out and retreave the lost (as we're called to do) with the love of Christ (and not with anger)? How many churches demand a high level of participation (most seem thankful they can get anyone at all to attend service and tithe)? Am I blasting Christianity? I love Jesus with every singe ounce of my being, therefore I am incapable of blasting Christianity. However, do we need something new in America? You're darn right we do.

AW

dizzle
June 9th 2007, 02:36 PM
First DZ I understand you're anger & I also realize that many of these women in fact simply don't want to be inconvenienced by the rigors of a pregnancy. However, only about 27% of women cite this as a reason for their abortive choice. Well over a third are financially and emotionally ill equipped to handle child rearing.

That "well over a third" is again for primarily selfish reasons, thus my point stands. My assertions and experience match. Yeah, I could have cited "not enough money" and "emotional reasons" as well, and it would be crap. Very few women on that side of the abortion controversy are going to be quite so blunt. I certainly wouldn't have. In brutally honest retrospect, I can. As have numerous women I have ministered to over this issue. In fact, AW you mean well, but let me tell you something you might not realize. In my experiences with post-abortion women, years after the fact, when they come to grips with what they have done, feel resentment at the people who make excuses for them and enabled them as your comments do. Women deserve better. Many people have bought into the incipient misogyny that claims that women are so weak-minded that we can excuse their little murders for financial and "emotional" reasons as legitimate. It is quite Victorian actually. Just back then we called it hysteria. And blamed it on their womb.

You see, though I rarely play the "woman card" - I have been there. You have not. I have personally been part of the lie that enables women to murder their children. I have had two abortions and was an abortion-clinic defender (I mean that literally, I was physically present at clinics to form a barrier against pro-life protesters) I minister to these women on a level you never can.

Amazing Rando
June 9th 2007, 03:05 PM
Finally, how many churches go out and retreave the lost (as we're called to do) with the love of Christ (and not with anger)? How many churches demand a high level of participation (most seem thankful they can get anyone at all to attend service and tithe)? Am I blasting Christianity? I love Jesus with every singe ounce of my being, therefore I am incapable of blasting Christianity. However, do we need something new in America? You're darn right we do.

Here's a good "something new" that calls the church back to doing what it should have been doing all along- witnessing to the transformative power of God's reign to redeem even the most desperate, lonely, and selfish of circumstances: Abortion: Theologically Considered (http://lifewatch.org/abortion.html) :thumb:

Yankee_Doodle
June 9th 2007, 04:50 PM
Here's a good "something new" that calls the church back to doing what it should have been doing all along- witnessing to the transformative power of God's reign to redeem even the most desperate, lonely, and selfish of circumstances: Abortion: Theologically Considered (http://lifewatch.org/abortion.html) :thumb:

excellent article & it goes to my point exactly.

AW

Yankee_Doodle
June 9th 2007, 05:01 PM
That "well over a third" is again for primarily selfish reasons, thus my point stands. My assertions and experience match. Yeah, I could have cited "not enough money" and "emotional reasons" as well, and it would be crap. Very few women on that side of the abortion controversy are going to be quite so blunt. I certainly wouldn't have. In brutally honest retrospect, I can. As have numerous women I have ministered to over this issue. In fact, AW you mean well, but let me tell you something you might not realize. In my experiences with post-abortion women, years after the fact, when they come to grips with what they have done, feel resentment at the people who make excuses for them and enabled them as your comments do. Women deserve better. Many people have bought into the incipient misogyny that claims that women are so weak-minded that we can excuse their little murders for financial and "emotional" reasons as legitimate. It is quite Victorian actually. Just back then we called it hysteria. And blamed it on their womb.

You see, though I rarely play the "woman card" - I have been there. You have not. I have personally been part of the lie that enables women to murder their children. I have had two abortions and was an abortion-clinic defender (I mean that literally, I was physically present at clinics to form a barrier against pro-life protesters) I minister to these women on a level you never can.

I do not view my comments as enabling women to make an abortive choice. My comments are being made inside the Christian shell of Tweb to you & all other Christians reading this. I simply think that there are better, or I should say more effective ways to reach these women then we're doing now? Obviously current efforts (that really are in some cases way over the top) are not working. We as Christians should have centers that we draw women considering abortion to with a LOVING outreach. These centers should be staffed with Christians, but Christians with social service & psychological experience and education (not judgmental zealots). Finally, we need to be ready to respond with care (prenatal -- adoption/foster care/orphanages). Will we care about the culpability of the woman or the life of the fetus...that's the question? If we place that unborn life first then we will do everything we can to stop its killing. Again, to prove my position (that a change in tactics are needed) one only need look at Christian successes to date.

Under my proposition outreach would be a hundred times more aggressive and sustained. I don't propose we make a public pronouncement of aleviating or assigning blame for abortion. Rather we need to do what works in the interest of the unborn. We can catch more flies with honey I suspect.

I do admit that as a man I cannot know what you've gone through (moreover I'm very sorry for your experiences). However, there has to be a better way because we're failing. I do not believe failure is an option in this mission. I think you improvise and adapt when a current strategy is ineffective. Yes, this is indeed a war, however, not all wars are won with bombs and bullets. Take Rando's story about the woman standing across the street from an abortion protest with a sign stating "I will adopt your baby." Does that aleviate culpability for abortion? Did that enable or dispose any woman to abortion? Of course not; and that's what I'm talking about. What do you think is more likely to give you the opportunity to minister to these women and to succeed? Will it be a loud, rude protester? Or will it be someone trained in psychology and a mature Christian who lovingly get's them to come into a Christian center and listen to you? Common sense forces me to assume the latter. Moreover, don't you think having the tool of a network that will care for these women during their pregnancy and that will ensure the childs care after its birth, will greatly increase your likelihood of success? Again, given the current state of things I can't imagine how you could disagree?

AW

jwarrend
June 9th 2007, 10:02 PM
I don't think anyone in this thread thinks that abortion is anything other than a heinous, malevolent act, but the practical question is, how do we stop it? Getting upset doesn't do very much good. Praying probably helps. Writing to our Congressmen helps. Electing presidents who will nominate conservative Supreme Court justices probably helps. But the reality is, causing change at the federal level is likely to be a slow process; laws prohibiting abortion are simply not going to pass with the current Congress, and even if they were passed, they'd be tied up in the courts for several (at least) years before taking effect.

But note that while we don't have laws prohibiting abortions, neither do we have laws that mandate abortions. So, even if abortion remains legal, there's no requirement abortions need to take place. How can we prevent them? By espousing methods Arminius Wesley and Amazing Rando are advocating -- by convincing the mothers not to have abortions. I can understand DeeDee's concern that we not mollycoddle people without explaining in no uncertain terms that abortion is murder, but it seems to me that there's no reason we can't do both. We can reach out to the mothers, encourage them to make the right choice, inform them of other options that are available, extend ourselves to make those options available, and most importantly, lead them to Christ, in which case the likelihood dramatically increases that they'll make the right choice all on their own.

So I don't disagree that abortion should be illegal, but I do think there are more immediate and more productive steps we can be taking right now, and that those steps will result in more meaningful and more permanent change. A woman who doesn't have an abortion because the law forbids it pales in comparison to one who doesn't choose an abortion because she is now following Christ, and the situation for the baby will be immeasurably better in the latter case.

-Jeff

Yankee_Doodle
June 9th 2007, 10:19 PM
I don't think anyone in this thread thinks that abortion is anything other than a heinous, malevolent act, but the practical question is, how do we stop it? Getting upset doesn't do very much good. Praying probably helps. Writing to our Congressmen helps. Electing presidents who will nominate conservative Supreme Court justices probably helps. But the reality is, causing change at the federal level is likely to be a slow process; laws prohibiting abortion are simply not going to pass with the current Congress, and even if they were passed, they'd be tied up in the courts for several (at least) years before taking effect.

But note that while we don't have laws prohibiting abortions, neither do we have laws that mandate abortions. So, even if abortion remains legal, there's no requirement abortions need to take place. How can we prevent them? By espousing methods Arminius Wesley and Amazing Rando are advocating -- by convincing the mothers not to have abortions. I can understand DeeDee's concern that we not mollycoddle people without explaining in no uncertain terms that abortion is murder, but it seems to me that there's no reason we can't do both. We can reach out to the mothers, encourage them to make the right choice, inform them of other options that are available, extend ourselves to make those options available, and most importantly, lead them to Christ, in which case the likelihood dramatically increases that they'll make the right choice all on their own.

So I don't disagree that abortion should be illegal, but I do think there are more immediate and more productive steps we can be taking right now, and that those steps will result in more meaningful and more permanent change. A woman who doesn't have an abortion because the law forbids it pales in comparison to one who doesn't choose an abortion because she is now following Christ, and the situation for the baby will be immeasurably better in the latter case.

-Jeff

Thanks Jeff. Like I said I also greatly relate to Dee Dee's point of view. However, I think to date the thrust of the movement has been overly emotive and has lacked an effective (well reasoned) strategy. I think we can win this fight. But we need to adopt an "overwhelming force of love" doctrine. We need to shock and awe; but with love. There should not be a single abortion clinic in this great country that is unattending by well trained Christians. We should have a ride ready to take these women to a Christian center and a care network in place ready to meet their needs. We literally need to view this like a company views a marketing campaign. We must figure out what works and then create a training machine and impliment it nationwide. I think I will put my time and effort where my mouth is and get more involved in this effort. My hope is that we can provide wonderful alternatives to all women considering this procedure. I see no reason, if the organization was ran effectively (like a good company) that we couldn't meet a quota like cutting abortion in half in two to five years, and then marching on to put this practice in the scrap heap of American history.

AW

bigsplit
June 10th 2007, 11:30 PM
You see, though I rarely play the "woman card" - I have been there. You have not. I have personally been part of the lie that enables women to murder their children. I have had two abortions and was an abortion-clinic defender (I mean that literally, I was physically present at clinics to form a barrier against pro-life protesters) I minister to these women on a level you never can.

Darth - Why is it that you blame others for YOUR choice to abort your children. God gives us liberty to sin and you made that choice. I do not beleive the church has ever condoned abortion. The fact is that you choose to abort your children. If it were illegal, you very well may have chosen to still abort, particularily since you have been so involved with the radical feminist movement during this time. If it were illegal, you may have been arrested for murder and may have become a "political prisoner" and hardened your heart even more towards religion. The liberty that allowed you to choose also allowed you to remain free and now you use that freedom to try and help others. This website alone is a testament to that.

Unfortunely, now you seek to imprison women who may make the same choice you made. There is a word for that, but its not good. If more focus and the millions of dollars raised and the millions of volunteer hours wasted on the right to life movement were spent on bringing the message of Jesus Christ to young women throughout the world and this country, how many more babies would have been saved than have been saved though politics? If there is anyone you should be angry with, it is the right wing political operatives that have distracted millions of Christians from using their energy and resouces in spreading the love and gospel of Christ and instead used them to obtain political power that favors the rich and powerful wolves that benefit most from their movement, most whom are self-obsessed lovers of money and power with 0 interest in Christ.

If you want to start saving some of the children from abortion, support this:

http://democratsforlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=45

I think the 95% is a bit optimistic, but if it saves just 10% it will be more than what the leaders on the right have done....they just use the movement with no real results. It is about saving lives and not stringing along a group of great intention Christians with no real solution to the problem. And BTW, this organization is not so popular within the party at present, but it is gaining momentum. Many of the new southern conservative democratic congressmen who were successful in '06 support this group..

Just think on it a bit.

Yankee_Doodle
June 10th 2007, 11:55 PM
Darth - Why is it that you blame others for YOUR choice to abort your children. God gives us liberty to sin and you made that choice. I do not beleive the church has ever condoned abortion. The fact is that you choose to abort your children. If it were illegal, you very well may have chosen to still abort, particularily since you have been so involved with the radical feminist movement during this time. If it were illegal, you may have been arrested for murder and may have become a "political prisoner" and hardened your heart even more towards religion. The liberty that allowed you to choose also allowed you to remain free and now you use that freedom to try and help others. This website alone is a testament to that.

Unfortunely, now you seek to imprison women who may make the same choice you made. There is a word for that, but its not good. If more focus and the millions of dollars raised and the millions of volunteer hours wasted on the right to life movement were spent on bringing the message of Jesus Christ to young women throughout the world and this country, how many more babies would have been saved than have been saved though politics? If there is anyone you should be angry with, it is the right wing political operatives that have distracted millions of Christians from using their energy and resouces in spreading the love and gospel of Christ and instead used them to obtain political power that favors the rich and powerful wolves that benefit most from their movement, most whom are self-obsessed lovers of money and power with 0 interest in Christ.

If you want to start saving some of the children from abortion, support this:

http://democratsforlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=45

I think the 95% is a bit optimistic, but if it saves just 10% it will be more than what the leaders on the right have done....they just use the movement with no real results. It is about saving lives and not stringing along a group of great intention Christians with no real solution to the problem. And BTW, this organization is not so popular within the party at present, but it is gaining momentum. Many of the new southern conservative democratic congressmen who were successful in '06 support this group..

Just think on it a bit.

well, in fairness it's not like the left wing doesn't have their own group they exploit. How about their promise to pull us out of Iraq? Now the democrats are using it in hopes of winning the White House (that's right ... they're allowing soldiers to continue dying for a war they claim is unwinnable). So while I agree politicians exploit this issue (of course that means both sides of the isle) I think Christians need to keep our eye on the ball (the lives of the unborn) & not allow ourselves to be distracted by politics (since Washington offers nothing but lip service & wasted time anyway). Frankly if I get sidetracked on politics I'll simply rant they all stink (because they do). Frankly the status quo serves both sides. Keeping the legal environment disposed to uncertainty on this issue keeps both sides mired in politics (along with their time & money) while nothing gets done. This is how the dirt bags in Washington keep us poor saps pining for Uncle Sam to ride to the rescue. My point is that shoving pictures of dismembered fetuses and harrassing teenage girls considering abortion play's right into the oppositions hands. We look like the bad guy's, they look like the good guy's, and to top it off they get to sue us. I don't see the logic?

Moreover, I'm not sure Dee Dee was passing off blame; however, I am sure it was quite inappropriate for you to make that statement. I mean Jesus what the heck was that???

AW

dizzle
June 11th 2007, 06:52 AM
You are correct AW, but I leave bigsplit's classless rant to speak to for itself.

FWIW, I think I am in a bit of better position to know whether or I not I would do something illegal. As I am a big chicken, and not made for prison, I would not. I also love split's assumption that I was "involved" in the radical feminist movement prior to having any abortions or after. My "involvement" if you can call it that, was years afterward, and was limited to the abortion issue. I had attended one NOW meeting after joining their organization and decided they were too freaky for me. The pro-life protesters I met during my abortion clinic defense days DID preach the Gospel - in other threads, I mention the impact those people ended up having on me.

As I have said very often on Paltalk, and it is something that God will definitely have to work with me on - I am learning personally that faith is a work of God because if it were up to me, I would ditch it because so many Christians are quite simply jerks that I wouldn't want to be around if it weren't for Christ (not speaking of you AW)

Dr. Jack Bauer
June 11th 2007, 07:41 AM
As I have said very often on Paltalk, and it is something that God will definitely have to work with me on - I am learning personally that faith is a work of God because if it were up to me, I would ditch it because so many Christians are quite simply jerks that I wouldn't want to be around if it weren't for Christ (not speaking of you AW)It's me right - you're TALKING ABOUT ME!

:hug:

rhutchin
June 11th 2007, 08:09 AM
rhutchin
Good idea. Tell us how you are personally involved in that effort so we can all emulate your efforts.

Abelard
I teach Sunday School, and we do discuss "rompin'". How about you, rhutchin? I think Rompin' Rhutchin sounds alright - you'd probably do a good job teaching middle schoolers!

Actually, I do work with middle schoolers (boys). The teacher is the person who teaches Bible to middle schoolers in our Christian school. We have a good curriculum that takes us through Proverbs. I agree with you. It's a start and you have to start somewhere.

However, I would be interested in how you generate discussions on sex (e.g., Do you look at David and Bathsheba as a discussion starter?) and what lesson plans you use.

Also, how are the High School teachers plugged into what you are doing?

bigsplit
June 11th 2007, 09:00 AM
You are absolutely right about the left playing politics with the war. You will not here me defend the lack of fortitude by the democrats in caving to the administration.

As for Dee Dee....... I am not the one that had the abortion and no one is responsible for it except Dee Dee. The fact still remains that the OP says so much about the situation and the main thing it says is that the right has done nothing to stop abortion.....nothing.... SHOcKING. There are ways to stop it, but it is obvious that the one's who could champion an effective campaign to stop it are content with being loud and achieving nothing....the solution is not criminalization....period.

Beleive it or not, I became a democrat over this very issue as I saw how the right was using the issue to further their political agenda with no substance or effectiveness in the fight. that was ten years ago, and it appears as though I was correct...nothing has happened. The compromise offer in 96/97 would have been better and saved more lives than are being saved today....but the Republicans wanted and still want to keep the issue alive, because if it were ever settled they would not win a single election in the South...

As for my reply being classless, I suppose if I were Dee Dee, I too would think it was classless....how dare anyone say that she is responsible for her choices.. I suppose everyone needs a coping mechanism to handle the cognitive dissonance created by their poor choices.....God did give us liberty. As for her work with NOW, she is the one who made her involvement seem relevant...but, this really does not matter in the least... Dee Dee chose the abotion of her own free will and accord, the government certainly did not strap her to the table. A major part of forgivmenss is personal accountability and it appears she blames the government for her actions and is counseling others that it is the governments fault for their abortions ..... this sound more like a secular progressives justification.

The fact is if you want to save babies and souls, politics is not the way to do it. You cannot legislate people to heaven. You can provide assistance for some of the economic consequences of parenthood for a young mother to be. But, it seems many churches and christian groups have become more concerned about winning elections than they are winning souls. A single dollor or volunteer hour diverted to the former is a tragedy for the Christian faith....shame on the GOP.

jwarrend
June 11th 2007, 09:18 AM
Bigsplit, now you're making a mistake from the opposite end of the spectrum; being too focused on outlawing abortion is a mistake, but so is villifying the efforts of those who are seeking to outlaw abortion. Abortion is morally wrong, and the laws of our country should reflect that which is morally upright. So, it is quite appropriate to campaign for abortion to be illegal. The best strategy is to do both. We should be pushing for better abortion legislation AND we should be extending Christ's love and compassion to pregnant mothers. The mindset that either of these is "right" and the other "wrong" just promotes infighting, when we should be unified in our approach, because we all want the same thing.

Your attack on Dee Dee is completely unwarranted and inappropriate. I don't believe she has ever said anything to the effect that she does not take responsibility for her actions, and she has very forcefully and convincingly stated that she feels abortion is A Bad Thing (TM). Perhaps you have never committed this particular bad act, but I have little doubt you've done some things at some point in your life that were contrary to God's law. I know I certainly have. Given that, is it really appropriate to wield mistakes in someone else's past as broadswords to score debate points? If the person was unrepentent or denied that what they had done was wrong, then admonishment is appropriate (although it should still be done in a gentle and loving manner), but for a sin that has been confessed and forgiven, God doesn't remember it anymore -- why should we?

-Jeff

dizzle
June 11th 2007, 10:47 AM
I fully take responsibility for my own actions. Bigsplit you are on ignore, I don't have time for such nonsense.

Now, as far as responsibility - each individual takes responsibility for their own actions, but it is a complete non-sequiter to say that others or society has no responsibility. Bigsplit is making the erroneous assumption that responsibility is like a pie that has to be split into pieces. IOW, if society and the government has responsibility that means that mine is less than 100%. It is not. Responsibility doesn't work that way. I can be fully accountable as a moral agent and others can have culpability that doesn't exonerate my own.

Further I never said that I counsel women to that conclusion. I said that women have told me that is their conclusion - big difference, but bigsplit is acting like a tasteless jerk whom I don't expect to try to understand that difference. No bother, I put him on ignore.

Thank you guys for your supportive comments. Fair or not fair, it is a fact of life that say I can slam my sister, but don't let anyone else do it or I will defend her to the end. The same thing goes for my murdered babies, I can speak of them and use my experiences, but how dare YOU bigsplit use them in such a manner. Fair? Maybe not. Reality? Yes. You don't have the right. You see to you, this may be just some intellectual and polemic point. It is not to me. I killed two of my children. That is reality. It is my reality that some day, I will meet these children and have to face to them what I did. There is something in maturity and class that teaches a person what is simply not appropriate to bring up - you need that maturity and class.

bigsplit
June 11th 2007, 11:48 AM
I fully take responsibility for my own actions. Bigsplit you are on ignore, I don't have time for such nonsense.

Now, as far as responsibility - each individual takes responsibility for their own actions, but it is a complete non-sequiter to say that others or society has no responsibility. Bigsplit is making the erroneous assumption that responsibility is like a pie that has to be split into pieces. IOW, if society and the government has responsibility that means that mine is less than 100%. It is not. Responsibility doesn't work that way. I can be fully accountable as a moral agent and others can have culpability that doesn't exonerate my own.

Further I never said that I counsel women to that conclusion. I said that women have told me that is their conclusion - big difference, but bigsplit is acting like a tasteless jerk whom I don't expect to try to understand that difference. No bother, I put him on ignore.

Thank you guys for your supportive comments. Fair or not fair, it is a fact of life that say I can slam my sister, but don't let anyone else do it or I will defend her to the end. The same thing goes for my murdered babies, I can speak of them and use my experiences, but how dare YOU bigsplit use them in such a manner. Fair? Maybe not. Reality? Yes. You don't have the right. You see to you, this may be just some intellectual and polemic point. It is not to me. I killed two of my children. That is reality. It is my reality that some day, I will meet these children and have to face to them what I did. There is something in maturity and class that teaches a person what is simply not appropriate to bring up - you need that maturity and class.


I did not bring it up. When one uses their situation to support a particular political view point, they open themselves up for a debate. I am truely sorry when anyone choses to abort a baby, but it is THEIR choice to make. I am sorry if this hurts anyone's feelings, but again, I am not the one who aborted the children and not the one who opened the debate. The fact is the government is not responsible for the sins of men or women, people choose to sin on their own based upon the liberty God gave to all.. As for you using your babies....well we are all children of God and therefore they are my brothers or sisters....so don't give me that how dare you point.

There is something in maturity that if you open up a subject for debate that is extremely personal such as Dee Dee has done you can expect a response. One cannot use their personal misjudgements to cast stones and hide behind getting their feelings hurt and calling others classless because they get a response. Dee Dee can ignore me and I hate that this conversation has offended her so; but again I did not bring up the subject, she did by blaming the governemnt for her choice. Whatever mechanism she chooses to cope psychologically with her choice is again her choice. As for her fear of confrontation with her children in the afterlife, it is obvious she is tormented to a degree by this. I would remind her that she has a savior and that all have sinned. My concern is that her testamony is weakened by holding government accoutable in any way for her choices. Porn is legalized, it is the governments fault people watch porn. Alcohol is legal, is it the governments fault that people become alcoholics and ruin their lives. Tobacco products are legal, is it the governments fault people smoke. Sex is legal in most forms, is the government responsible for adultery.

No, No, No and No. And the government is not responsible for women choosing to abort either..

bigsplit
June 11th 2007, 12:08 PM
Bigsplit, now you're making a mistake from the opposite end of the spectrum; being too focused on outlawing abortion is a mistake, but so is villifying the efforts of those who are seeking to outlaw abortion. Abortion is morally wrong, and the laws of our country should reflect that which is morally upright. So, it is quite appropriate to campaign for abortion to be illegal. The best strategy is to do both. We should be pushing for better abortion legislation AND we should be extending Christ's love and compassion to pregnant mothers. The mindset that either of these is "right" and the other "wrong" just promotes infighting, when we should be unified in our approach, because we all want the same thing.

Your attack on Dee Dee is completely unwarranted and inappropriate. I don't believe she has ever said anything to the effect that she does not take responsibility for her actions, and she has very forcefully and convincingly stated that she feels abortion is A Bad Thing ™. Perhaps you have never committed this particular bad act, but I have little doubt you've done some things at some point in your life that were contrary to God's law. I know I certainly have. Given that, is it really appropriate to wield mistakes in someone else's past as broadswords to score debate points? If the person was unrepentent or denied that what they had done was wrong, then admonishment is appropriate (although it should still be done in a gentle and loving manner), but for a sin that has been confessed and forgiven, God doesn't remember it anymore -- why should we?

-Jeff


My attack on Dee Dee was in response to her blaming government for people choosing abortions. I have not condemned her for her actions as I am certain by her responses she is hard enough on herself. I cannot agree with you more that God does not remember anymore when someone confesses to their sins. And I certainly would never have know of Dee Dee's situation unless and until she brought it up. I do feel strongly that the efforts to criminalize abortion are distractions from very significant work that could be done to reduce abortions done for non-medical or rape/incest reasons. I also think that it is flawed to point at the governement because one made a bad choice. Would criminalization of abortion stop some from aborting....I do not know, but probable it would. Will abortion ever be criminalized in the US, I strongly doubt it. Will back alley butchers pop up all over the country if we do.....you betcha. We need to reach people through love and the gospel....not through politics... again, you cannot legislate people to heaven, but Politics can pervert the Church and harden people's hearts to God. The religious right is not doing so much on the abortion front, but they are doing a heck of a job of hardening peoples hearts towards Jesus Christ. This is my judgement is a great tragedy and I confront it everyday so I know it is real, and I apoligize for aiming my frustrations at Dee Dee, perhaps I could have been more tactful.

If she ever chooses to take me off ignore, I apoligize if you think I judged you, and on a certain level, I know that I did. I know you are persuing what you think is right, I just think it is a great mistake. God bless you and I hope you gain the peace of mind to know that God loves you and his grace and love now fill the spirits of your children and they love you unconditionally as well.

God Bless and I will never bring the subject up towards you or your situation again, and will not participate in any abortion subjects where you are active.

Yankee_Doodle
June 11th 2007, 12:14 PM
I did not bring it up. When one uses their situation to support a particular political view point, they open themselves up for a debate. I am truely sorry when anyone choses to abort a baby, but it is THEIR choice to make. I am sorry if this hurts anyone's feelings, but again, I am not the one who aborted the children and not the one who opened the debate. The fact is the government is not responsible for the sins of men or women, people choose to sin on their own based upon the liberty God gave to all.. As for you using your babies....well we are all children of God and therefore they are my brothers or sisters....so don't give me that how dare you point.

There is something in maturity that if you open up a subject for debate that is extremely personal such as Dee Dee has done you can expect a response. One cannot use their personal misjudgements to cast stones and hide behind getting their feelings hurt and calling others classless because they get a response. Dee Dee can ignore me and I hate that this conversation has offended her so; but again I did not bring up the subject, she did by blaming the governemnt for her choice. Whatever mechanism she chooses to cope psychologically with her choice is again her choice. As for her fear of confrontation with her children in the afterlife, it is obvious she is tormented to a degree by this. I would remind her that she has a savior and that all have sinned. My concern is that her testamony is weakened by holding government accoutable in any way for her choices. Porn is legalized, it is the governments fault people watch porn. Alcohol is legal, is it the governments fault that people become alcoholics and ruin their lives. Tobacco products are legal, is it the governments fault people smoke. Sex is legal in most forms, is the government responsible for adultery.

No, No, No and No. And the government is not responsible for women choosing to abort either..

The fact is Dee Dee's point was that there should be accountability towards the individual who has an abortion. She wishes it was illegal (then perhaps we wouldn't have made that choice). Your argument winds up making sort of an ambiguous and subjective presumption that abortion doesn't hurt society (thus it should be an individual choice). What is your basis for government regulation of human conduct? Should drugs be legal (after all one could argue that they only hurt the addict)? What's your standard. If you think the practice of abortion should be left to choice then what do you think a fertilized fetus represents? Do you think it's merely a blob of cells with no value to God? If you think God loves that fetus then how can an independent actor have the right to terminate it?

My position is that the legal arm of this fight has wrongly been the central focus of the pro-life movement (so we agree here), when it should be ancillary to actually saving lives (especially given how unproductive the efforts have been to date). Would I have been willing to get in some girls face and call her a murderer? No, because it's far more likely I would fail in saving the life of the child she's ready to abort. Then we leave the job of providing her love and comfort to the abortionist (we scare the sheep and she runs to the wolves for protection). Moreover, I don't think abortion clinics are good ground to fight the legal battle (this is better done by protests at our congressmen's door and by lawyers). We need to be at the abortionist's door to retrieve the soul that's being led to its slaughter with no voice (in most cases by a misguided young girl). We should do this as Jesus Christ has COMMANDED, with LOVE. Aren't we even suppose to love our enemy? Are we a shining light to all non-Christians of our goodness and love when we show some teenage girl (who is a CHILD herself) a horrific picture of a mutilated fetus?

As for you're remark to Dee Dee; you should think b4 you throw out a statement like that....but since you apologized I'm sure she will forgive you just like Christ forgives us all for anything?

AW

Abelard
June 11th 2007, 01:44 PM
However, I would be interested in how you generate discussions on sex (e.g., Do you look at David and Bathsheba as a discussion starter?) and what lesson plans you use.

Also, how are the High School teachers plugged into what you are doing?

I don't really tie it into scripture at all. My middle school class is very much "relate your life to Christ" oriented, and not too academic. I basicaly force the topic at some point.

I don't claim any big onsights on this. I mostly hope the kids will be comfortable coming to someone is they feel the need, so I make it a point to get the subject out in the open.

rhutchin
June 12th 2007, 08:21 AM
No, No, No and No. And the government is not responsible for women choosing to abort either..

It may be that government is responsible for a women choosing abortion. Goverment is any ruling authority. In the classroom, one teacher is able to maintain control of the class while another is not. Something the one teacher does contributes to control while not doing that creates chaos. The teacher influences the students behavior by his/her behavior, attitude, expectations -- who knows.

In the same sense, society (including government) does something to influence members of the society to behave in a certain manner. A Mormon society is generally characterized as a family oriented society. Jews are characterized as highly ethical and moral even if very aggressive in pursuing wealth. Other societies may produce people with a tendency to violence. It seems to me that the government can have a huge effect on the way a society behaves. If governement were to emphasis the importance of life and the value of each individual, and instituted programs to this effect, I think there might be few abortions, if any.

My sense is that government can have a significant impact in creating an abortion mindset within society.

dizzle
June 12th 2007, 08:34 AM
It may be that government is responsible for a women choosing abortion. Goverment is any ruling authority. In the classroom, one teacher is able to maintain control of the class while another is not. Something the one teacher does contributes to control while not doing that creates chaos. The teacher influences the students behavior by his/her behavior, attitude, expectations -- who knows.

In the same sense, society (including government) does something to influence members of the society to behave in a certain manner. A Mormon society is generally characterized as a family oriented society. Jews are characterized as highly ethical and moral even if very aggressive in pursuing wealth. Other societies may produce people with a tendency to violence. It seems to me that the government can have a huge effect on the way a society behaves. If governement were to emphasis the importance of life and the value of each individual, and instituted programs to this effect, I think there might be few abortions, if any.

My sense is that government can have a significant impact in creating an abortion mindset within society.

That is absolutely true. While slavery was legal, there were people who simply grew up in a culture where that was accepted and that influenced a lot of people. Today it would be unthinkable. We are not fundamentally less evil than our forebears. Today, through laws and culture, we teach women that killing their children is an acceptable option. That is a factor in a woman making her decision. When I made my decisions, I was not a Christian, and didn't think anything was wrong with my decision - after all it was legal wasn't it? Most people just seemed to take it in stride. Heck, my mother drove me to the first one. Government is ordained by God to restrain evil. If it fails in that task, it owes responsibility. Throughout the Bible, people are judged corporately as a people through where there leaders lead. Where the leaders and laws go, there the people go.

Yankee_Doodle
June 12th 2007, 03:18 PM
First my kudo's to rhutchin & Abelard (I have great respect for teachers). I also agree that government can shape public behavior; if we let it. Take Clinton's misbehavior during his Presidency. Kids everywhere began viewing oral sex as not sex (and not even immoral). Thank's Bill (like teachers such as rhutch & abelard don't have enough to deal with already).

So yes abortion ought to be illegal ... but this doen't change my opinion that the pro-life movement should refocus on saving lives (moreover, the efforts to date on changing the law have them self been ineffective).

JonLanceBarker
June 12th 2007, 10:25 PM
First my kudo's to rhutchin & Abelard (I have great respect for teachers). I also agree that government can shape public behavior; if we let it. Take Clinton's misbehavior during his Presidency. Kids everywhere began viewing oral sex as not sex (and not even immoral). Thank's Bill (like teachers such as rhutch & abelard don't have enough to deal with already).

So yes abortion ought to be illegal ... but this doen't change my opinion that the pro-life movement should refocus on saving lives (moreover, the efforts to date on changing the law have them self been ineffective).

not that we should stop trying to get in through the front door, but we really ought to redouble our efforts to get in through the back.

jabr
June 13th 2007, 03:58 AM
I don't see how abortion is unconstitutional. Further, I don't see how first trimester abortions are even morally debatable. And second and third trimester abortions are almost entirely in response to health concerns for the mother.

I really don't understand why people consider this to be a big deal. Perhaps one of you could explain?

jabr
June 13th 2007, 04:05 AM
Banning D&X means you are condemning some women with non-viable fetuses to death.

Is that really what Jesus would do?

Dr. Jack Bauer
June 13th 2007, 05:30 AM
Banning D&X means you are condemning some women with non-viable fetuses to death.

Is that really what Jesus would do?
Non viable? I thought we were talking about third trimester. Please explain.

Dr. Jack Bauer
June 13th 2007, 05:31 AM
I don't see how abortion is unconstitutional. Further, I don't see how first trimester abortions are even morally debatable. And second and third trimester abortions are almost entirely in response to health concerns for the mother.

I really don't understand why people consider this to be a big deal. Perhaps one of you could explain?The reason most if not all third trimester abortiuons have ANYTHING to do with the mother's health is that ... wait, before I go further - do you actually know when the point of viability is? I shouldn't say any more unless you first know that.

jabr
June 13th 2007, 05:38 AM
I mean viability in the sense of fetal development -- not modern medical support for pre-mature births (though that is still largely a third trimester ability).

I mean still-borns, severe cranial defects, and that sort of non-viability.

jabr
June 13th 2007, 06:04 AM
Why do women have to die because they have dead babies in their uterus? That is what you have done. You think it is a moral victory, but good people will die because of you.

rhutchin
June 13th 2007, 07:30 AM
I don't see how abortion is unconstitutional. Further, I don't see how first trimester abortions are even morally debatable. And second and third trimester abortions are almost entirely in response to health concerns for the mother.

I really don't understand why people consider this to be a big deal. Perhaps one of you could explain?

In your opinion, should a women be able to have a Down's Syndron baby killed while it is still in the womb, after it has been partially, but not fully, delivered from the womb, or after it has been delivered fully from the womb?

Would you consider the purposeful elimination of such a baby as murder under the constitution under either of these three situations.

rhutchin
June 13th 2007, 07:36 AM
Why do women have to die because they have dead babies in their uterus? That is what you have done. You think it is a moral victory, but good people will die because of you.

The removal of a non-living baby from the womb is not abortion and there is nothing wrong with doing that. Abortion terminates, ends, aborts the life of a living baby in the womb.

I am not aware of any cases where pregnancy endangers the "medical" health of the mother. The "health of the mother" issue deals with the financial ability of the mother to support a child (or an additional child). Some women use abortion as a means of birth control and would like to claim mental anxiety if a pregnancy prevents them from having sex (presumably because that is their profession).

JonLanceBarker
June 13th 2007, 06:06 PM
i believe the general consensus is that pregnancies which endanger the medical health of the mother are extremely, extremely rare, although some supporting stats would be helpful.
and no one (except an idiot) opposes an abortion to save the life (medically speaking) of the mother.
your objection is irrelevant, jabr.

JonLanceBarker
June 13th 2007, 08:05 PM
what exactly constitutes a "severe cranial defect," jabr?
what kind of defect would justify an abortion, in your opinion?

jabr
June 14th 2007, 10:42 PM
I've now had two long responses disappear into the TWeb ether. I'm new here, and I'm a tad discouraged.

jabr
June 14th 2007, 10:54 PM
Down Syndrome is not related. I'm talking about children that are dead in the womb, will die shortly after leaving the womb, or children that may well be viable, but have a significant risk of killing the mother during birth.

If you think this is an imaginary concern, please find *any* lawsuit on behalf of a mother seeking a late-term abortion that did not have reasonable health concerns. Really, ANY.

Historically -- ie, prior to modern science and surgery -- one of the primary causes of death for women was childbirth. I imagine many of you dislike this idea, but over the evolutionary time our species developed, the cranial size expanded much more rapidly than the "female anatomy". It is not a pleasant thing at all, but apparently the adaptive benefit of bigger brains outweighed the more frequent death of childbearing females.

JonLanceBarker
June 15th 2007, 12:40 AM
dead in the womb, not by human action...not an abortion, therefore NOT AN ISSUE.
how many times do we have to say it?

Historically -- ie, prior to modern science and surgery -- one of the primary causes of death for women was childbirth.

:eh: umm...statistics, please?!!
until you have the stats that list childbirth as #1, this assertion shall be designated "unproven appeal to emotion."
(not to say that death by childbirth never happened, but was it REALLY all that common?
because if so, you have a long line of extremely brave women to thank for your ungrateful life.)

is it not more correct to say that death by childbirth was always the exception rather than the rule (even if in the past, it may have been a somewhat more common exception)?

the cranial size expanded much more rapidly than the "female anatomy". It is not a pleasant thing at all, but apparently the adaptive benefit of bigger brains outweighed the more frequent death of childbearing females.

:ahem: know much about biology?
the baby's skull is made of MALLEABLE cartilage.
skull doesn't completely solidify until AFTER birth.
makes it a lot easier to get through the "expanded female anatomy," doncha think?

rhutchin
June 15th 2007, 07:29 AM
...

If you think this is an imaginary concern, please find *any* lawsuit on behalf of a mother seeking a late-term abortion that did not have reasonable health concerns. Really, ANY.

OK. Do you have any sources of these on websites? Maybe examples from your personal research. My impression is that there are none.


Historically -- ie, prior to modern science and surgery -- one of the primary causes of death for women was childbirth. I imagine many of you dislike this idea, but over the evolutionary time our species developed, the cranial size expanded much more rapidly than the "female anatomy". It is not a pleasant thing at all, but apparently the adaptive benefit of bigger brains outweighed the more frequent death of childbearing females.

I was not aware that death in childbirth was an issue any more. Do you know a case in recent history where a woman died from complications of childbirth?

jabr
June 18th 2007, 12:26 AM
Yikes, tough crowd.

Anyway, basic Google searches easily turn up the requested citations. Let me know if you have problems. (eg. baby murder is not a widely used clinical term).

know much about biology?

Is is certainly possible that this forum has active participants with biological expertise exceeding my own. It's not especially likely, but if I'm wrong, I'd love to chat with you.

[QUOTE]the baby's skull is made of MALLEABLE cartilage.[/QUOTE

I'm confused -- I had assumed you were a creationist, but you just cited one of the most interesting partial adaptations in our species divergence...

JonLanceBarker
June 18th 2007, 12:51 AM
Yikes, tough crowd.

Anyway, basic Google searches easily turn up the requested citations. Let me know if you have problems. (eg. baby murder is not a widely used clinical term).

thanks...like we hadn't noticed. :ahem:

Is is certainly possible that this forum has active participants with biological expertise exceeding my own. It's not especially likely, but if I'm wrong, I'd love to chat with you.

just what is YOUR biological expertise, mr. jabrjaw?
i am studying biology in college and hardly consider myself an expert...just extremely interested in becoming one.
that may not be enough "expertise" to satisfy such a highly qualified participant such as yourself...:teeth:

the baby's skull is made of MALLEABLE cartilage.

I'm confused -- I had assumed you were a creationist, but you just cited one of the most interesting partial adaptations in our species divergence...

why the confusion? assuming creationists "don't know much about biology?"
i AM a creationist.
i happen to believe God made it so the baby's cartilaginous head could more easily pass through the birth canal than if it were solidified bone.
He's an intelligent Designer, not an unintelligent Designer.
and besides, microevolution's not a problem for me.
it's change within a specified kind...perfectly observable and therefore acceptable, unlike macroevolution, which proposes one specified kind turning into another specified kind, and has yet to be empirically observed.

for future reference, "creationist" does not necessarily equate with complete biological ignorance.
it may merely indicate a certain amount of discretion regarding adoption of certain common opinions. :teeth:

rhutchin
June 18th 2007, 06:44 AM
jabr
If you think this is an imaginary concern, please find *any* lawsuit on behalf of a mother seeking a late-term abortion that did not have reasonable health concerns. Really, ANY.

rhutchin
OK. Do you have any sources of these on websites? Maybe examples from your personal research. My impression is that there are none.

jabr
Anyway, basic Google searches easily turn up the requested citations. Let me know if you have problems. (eg. baby murder is not a widely used clinical term).

OK. I had problems. I did find stories of women who discovered that they had severely deformed babies who decided that late-term abortion was the solution to their problem. It was not clear that the mother's heath was necessarily at issue (although implied in a couple stories).

I could not find any lawsuits though. What did you find (and what did you search on to find it)?

EvoUK
June 19th 2007, 04:48 AM
I think what jabr is trying to say is that "partial birth abortions" are not carried out for elective reasons. You won't find many doctors willing to carry out such a proceedure because she "changed her mind".

If the termination is carried out for medical reasons (which is its purpose) then I also don't see the problem. I'm also unaware of such a proceedure being carried out to terminate a foetus with downs syndrome. Saying that, I'm aware that many adults who test positive for a downs syndrome pregnancy terminate it in the 1st trimester.

1st trimester, elective abortions, are, however, a seperate issue to the thread it seems, which is concerned with 3rd trimester proceedures.

Yankee_Doodle
June 19th 2007, 07:11 PM
OK. I had problems. I did find stories of women who discovered that they had severely deformed babies who decided that late-term abortion was the solution to their problem. It was not clear that the mother's heath was necessarily at issue (although implied in a couple stories).

I could not find any lawsuits though. What did you find (and what did you search on to find it)?

not a valid reason IMO for a late term abortion. If the choice is really between the existing life of the mother & the potential life of the baby -- that would be the only reason I could agree with.

Do we kill handicapped people who are living based on their infirmity? Of course not -- thus no such reasoning can support killing a disfigured baby because of that handicap. Even the handicapped are loved by God & man has no right to deny that potential life the chance to breathe and love God (even in their simple way). The most vunerable are the most loved by God -- remember what Christ said about the least of these? The strong are judged on how they treat the weak.

EvoUK
June 20th 2007, 08:50 AM
The way I understand it, D&X procedures, (the actual medical term, dilate and extract for what are commonly and innacurately termed "partial birth abortions") are usually performed because the woman's life or health are in danger.... or because the fetus has something horribly wrong with it that couldn't be detected earlier. As a form of 'retroactive birth control' they're almost unheard of. If nothing else it's fairly dangerous.... NOT something one does lightly.

An example of a reason for one would be severe infant (fetus) encephalitis, In a severe case the brain swells and the fetus' skull can swell to double or more it's normal size. Most state medical boards do not allow thier physicians to perform last trimester abortions by any method except in cases where the mother's health is the issue.

Though D&X isn't reported the same way abortions are, since they're not considered to be actual 'abortions' either medically or legally. Personally, I would have no problem if D&X were banned if the following exceptions were clearly made in the law:

1. Danger to the mother's health, life, or future fertility
2. Severe fetal abnormality

This is how the law stands, practically speaking.

JonLanceBarker
June 20th 2007, 08:49 PM
An example of a reason for one would be severe infant (fetus) encephalitis, In a severe case the brain swells and the fetus' skull can swell to double or more it's normal size. Most state medical boards do not allow their physicians to perform last trimester abortions by any method except in cases where the mother's health is the issue.

2. Severe fetal abnormality

so by severe fetal abnormality, you mean something that wouldn't allow the baby to live outside the womb anyway?

EvoUK
June 30th 2007, 10:10 PM
Yes and no. Some probably could survive in the most basic sense, at least for a short while (weeks perhaps). In most cases the womans health is at risk, as with the example I gave above. Another Foetal abnormality would be a harlequin baby. You can look them up if you like, though I wouldn't advise it. They look... awful.

JonLanceBarker
July 2nd 2007, 12:05 AM
if anyone wants to look them up here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlequin_baby

apparently, the condition is treatable to the point of actually having a relatively "normal" lifestyle...although it definitely used to be invariably fatal.