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yxboom
May 25th 2007, 01:30 AM
Published on Colorado Right to Life (http://coloradorighttolife.org)

*Reprinted with permission

Open Letter to Dr. James Dobson

43035

Dobson Thanks God for Brutally Wicked Ruling

High Court Creates New Partial Birth Abortion Technique

Focus on the Family Makes False Claims About PBA Ruling

An Open Letter to Dr. James Dobson,


Dr. Dobson, we the undersigned grieve at your celebration of one of the most barbaric opinions ever issued by an American court. We plead with you to correct your misrep*resentation of the Gonzales v. Carhart Supreme Court ruling. You have led many people to trust in Jesus Christ, so it is with love and great sadness that we admonish you.

You wrote at Family.org that you applaud the "pro-life Justices" nominated to the court by our pro-life presidents. Focus on the Family stated, "the Supreme Court has affirmed the value of human life." But actually, these Justices concur optimist*ically on page 30 that, "The medical prof*ession [abortionists] may find different and less shocking methods to abort the fetus..." It is false for Focus on the Family to claim this ruling has any concern for the child; the Justices' real concern is to improve the public-relations image of the abortionist (please see SupremeCourtUS.gov (http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06pdf/05-380.pdf) for the ruling itself, and see our excerpts here).


The Justices you called "pro-life" did not "affirm" the life of the unborn but upheld a mere "regulatory" law "under the Commerce Clause" (p. 36). These Justices you misrepre*sent as "pro-life" actually suggest other ways for abortionists to kill the fully intact, late-term child to comply with their regulation, such as "an injection that kills the fetus" (p. 34). Dr. Dobson, imagine the horror yet to come now that our greatest Christian leaders are willing to call good evil, and evil good. Throughout the ruling, Justices Kennedy, Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, and Alito concur that both the partial-birth abortion (PBA) ban, and their ruling, allow the abor*tionist to deliver a late-term baby all the way up to the navel and then kill him (especially pp. 17-26). To actually violate this regulation (p. 17) "requires the fetus to be delivered ‘until... any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother'" as in a standard breech (feet-first) abortion.


You "thank God for this victory that affirms the value of human life," but this vulgar ruling actually instructs on how to perform just another form of partial-birth abortion, just not "past the navel." And you celebrate this even though it affirms causing "the fetus to tear apart" (p. 4). The Justices build upon the late-term abortion procedure called dilation and evacuation, which this ruling repeatedly up*holds as remaining legal, stating (p. 21) that "D&E will often involve a physician pulling a ‘substantial portion' of a still living fetus, say, an arm or leg, into the prior to the death of the fetus." Then for the purpose of this current opinion, Kennedy, Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, and Alito, regarding a still living unborn child, ruled that (p. 22) "the removal of a small portion [‘say, an arm or leg'] of the fetus is not prohibited" and that's after the baby is pulled outside the mother as far as to his bellybutton (p. 22).


False Claims from Focus

Dr. Dobson, you mislead Christians claiming this ruling will "protect children." The court granted no authority to save the life of even a single child. You wrongly assert that this ruling finds, "no constitutional right to slay a healthy, nearly born baby by stabbing it in the back of the head and vacuuming out its brains, all without even anesthetizing the child." In truth, the "pro-life Justices" indicate repeatedly the abortionist can still do exactly that. The ruling even permits a textbook partial-birth abortion, if for example the mother is over "dilate[d]" (p. 24) and the baby, by "inadvertence," is delivered up to the neck as in typical PBA. Then the abortionist can kill him by "intact D&E" (p. 24), i.e., by partial-birth abortion, exactly in the cruel manner you have just described. An abortionist only needs to maintain that his original "intent" was to deliver the baby up to the navel before killing him. "If a living fetus is delivered past the critical point [the belly*button] by accident or inadvertence [and then killed] no crime has occurred" (p. 18).


Some of us learned that Focus on the Family staff was falsely informing supporters that this PBA ban has outlawed abortions in the third trimester, so we recorded our own call to 800-A-FAMILY, and posted online that call with Susan from your correspond*ence depart*ment. She told us that with this PBA ruling, "The U.S. Supreme Court made it illegal for women to have an abortion in the last trimester." Online at KGOV.com, we also document other pro-life media outlets misrep*resenting this vicious ruling. Following your example, many national ministries have spent years using the PBA ban to motivate financial donations, all the while misrepre*senting the legal effect of the ban. Today millions of Christians, including your own staff, have been deceived. As a member of the Evangelical Council For Financial Account*ability, Focus on the Family commits to adhere to the ECFA's Seven Standards of Responsible Stewardship, which require at "7.1 Truth*fulness in Communication: All representations of fact... must be current, complete, and accu*rate. There must be no material... exag*ger*ations of fact or use of misleading... com*mun*i*cation which would tend to create a false impression or misunderstanding." Yet the court explicitly stated the PBA ban "does not on its face impose a substantial obstacle" to "late-term" abortion (p. 26). And since this ban cannot prevent a single abortion, of course, it imposes no obstacle, and neither does it "protect children" (your words) or ban "abortion in the last trimester" (words offered by some of your staff).


As the founder of Focus on the Family, you are responsible for the truth of your organiza*tion's statements. The truth is, there is nothing new with this ruling that is good, no precedent, no defense of life, only brutality and death.

More Wicked than Roe

Some pro-life leaders even admitted this ban would not save lives but that it would "keep the issue in the news," as your V.P. of Public Policy Tom Minnery has said. Others misrepre*sent excerpts from the ruling that sound en*courag*ing, e.g., "The government may... show its profound respect for the life within the woman" (p. 27). The Justices re*print this lip-service from the Casey ruling of 15 years earlier, but they show no such respect.

This wicked ruling trivializes the dreadful account of killing a child whose arms and legs are wiggling outside the mother, callously comparing our revulsion to our reaction to any medi*cal procedure, like being squeamish over getting stitches. The Justices quote (pp. 8-9) a sympathetic nurse and then an abortionist. "The baby's little fingers were clasping... his little feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors in the back of his head... the baby's arms jerked out..." Then from the abortionist: "For the staff to have to deal with a fetus that has ‘some viability to it, some movement of limbs, always a difficult situation.'" And with grave wicked*ness, the "pro-life Justices" observe (p. 29): "some doctors may prefer not to disclose precise details of the means that will be used... Any number of patients facing imminent surgical procedures would prefer not to hear all details, lest the usual anxiety... become the more intense. This is likely the case with the abortion procedures here in issue."


Dr. Dobson, the court, including Roberts and Alito, trivializes the grotesque particulars of causing "the fetus to tear apart" (p. 4) by comparing that to getting queasy by talk of incisions, and you "applaud the court." You should be appalled.

Focus on the Family and many ministries celebrate this wicked ruling to justify the fifteen years of wasted effort. Pro-lifers gave tens of millions of dollars to the movement responding to countless fundraising pleas that mention the PBA ban. A major pro-life fund*raising firm told Colorado Right To Life's V.P. Leslie Hanks, "The PBA script gets the best results."

America has killed twenty million children during this long distraction, all in pursuit of a ban that from the beginning Never Had The Authority To Prevent Even A Single Abortion. Dr. Dobson, you and these other leaders needed to warn Christians of all this, but instead you joined together in calling evil good. Please stop foisting onto the church the falsehood that this gruesome ruling will "protect children." This decision, to use your word, is more "Naziesque" than the PBA it regulates.

This wicked ruling does not even prohibit aborting partially born children. It is not a ban, but a partial-birth abortion manual. These "pro-life Justices" give instructions on what can be called Navel Birth Abortion, only a four-inch variation from a textbook PBA. Steps from the ruling:
1) The abortionist may partially deliver the unborn child all the way to the bellybutton, but not "past the navel."

2) Then "a leg might be ripped off," etc. to "kill the fetus."
3) Or alternatively, "find... less shocking methods to abort..."
What a mockery of the goodwill of rank-and-file pro-lifers.

Dr. Dobson, in celebrating this evil ruling, you used the word "brutally" regarding PBA. The ruling itself speaks of brutality, but in the exact opposite sense that you used it. The Justices raise the likelihood that with this ruling, the fetus faces greater brutality. On page 30, the Justices note the objection "that the standard D&E is in some respects as brutal, if not more, than the intact D&E [PBA]." That is, standard late-term D&E abortion appears to be more cruel than PBA. And the Justices do not rebut that claim. Their interest is not to protect children, but to pro*mote the "integrity and ethics" (p. 27) of late-term abortion. The concern of these "pro-life Justices" has nothing to do with the brutal*ity against the child, but with improving "the public's perception" (p. 30) of late-term abor*tion. Focus on the Family should not hide this truth.


Incrementalism is fine; compromised incre*mentalism violates God's enduring command, Do not murder. When you compromise on this fundamental law, you undermine the pro-life goal of re-establishing the personhood of the child, and you cannot possibly foresee all the negative consequences. And now these kids will suffer more horrifically with this ruling than before, as we congratulate ourselves.

The court ruling you rejoice over, Dr. Dobson, results in the legal preference for "reasonable alternative procedures" (p. 33) for killing "late-term" children. These reason*able alternatives include "a leg might be ripped off the fetus," "friction causes the fetus to tear apart," "evacuating the fetus piece by piece continues," "10 to 15 passes with the forceps," "ripping it apart," "dismemberment" (pp. 4-6). And you "applaud the court." We rebuke you.


Beyond the children, your praise helps destroy the souls of these wicked Justices who no doubt take comfort in the approval of Christian leaders. You help them feel safe as they violate God's enduring command, Do not murder; and then with hubris, they demand that abortionists follow their new regulation of how to murder a child. We expect such evil from humanists. But for a Christian leader to give this false sense of security to judges and offi*cials at all levels of government is an affront to the holiness of God. They do not fear for their souls, but how is it that you do not warn them? How have you arrived at this place?

For more than a quarter century, the pro-life movement with your support, has adopted moral relativism and legal positivism, obsessing on process and overlooking funda*mental justice. You mourned a missed cloture vote in the Senate (FOTF, May 2005, "Gang of 14"), but celebrate an evil ruling that affirms "ripping... apart" children. Gonzales v. Carhart unequivocally affirms the "killing" of children as long as you follow its guidelines, and the pro-life movement cheers, for the ends now justify the means, and right and wrong have become negotiable. God did not design the Body of Christ to follow lawyers, talk show hosts, or anyone who puts politics ahead of righteousness. We want to follow your lead, Dr. Dobson, but not in the direction you now head. We want to follow the standard in the pledge you made before hundreds of thous*ands at the Rally for Life in Washington D.C. in 1990, to never support any effort that will intentionally "kill one innocent baby."


When you call these judges "pro-life," you dangerously redefine what that means. Far from asserting the personhood of the unborn, these Justices have only undermined the child's God-given right to life, and re-use their old anti-life phrase, "the fetus that may become a child" (p. 15). And the majority opinion is pleased that Congress did not use the term child, but fetus. In concurring, these Justices note that the Nebraska ban that was struck down described, "a living unborn child" and Congress respond*ed to the court in "material ways" including that it "adopts the phrase ‘delivers a living fetus,' ...instead of ‘deliver*ing... a living un*born child'" (p. 21).


Groups Celebrating this Evil Ruling

National Right to Life (http://www.nrlc.org/press_releases_new/Release041807.html): "applauds... ruling"
Christian Coalition (http://www.cc.org/content.cfm?id=382): "commends the five justices"
Family Research Council (http://www.lifenews.com/nat3048.html): "Court no longer endorses... killing of innocent, partially-born babies"
Priests for Life (http://www.priestsforlife.org/pressreleases/07-04-18-pba-ban.htm): "applauds the ruling"
Concerned Women for America (http://www.cwfa.org/articles/12821/CWA/life/index.htm): "justice was served"

Founder (http://www.cwfa.org/articles/12821/CWA/life/index.htm), Beverly LaHaye: "victory on behalf of innocent human life"
President (http://www.cwfa.org/articles/12818/MEDIA/life/index.htm) Wendy Wright: "Court... protect[s] babies from painful abortion"
American Family Association (http://www.afa.net/culture/GetArticle.asp?id=359): "reason has prevailed"
U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2007/07-068.shtml): "welcomes [the] decision"
D. James Kennedy (http://www.coralridge.org/specialdocs/StatementSupremeCourtRuling04182007.htm)'s ministries: "enormously good news... for unborn children"

Jay Sekulow and the ACLJ (http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=472): "happy to report... a significant victory"
Christian Law Association (http://www.christianlaw.org/newsletter/articles/partial_birth_abortion_banned.html): "Court considered the welfare of the unborn child"
Americans United for Life (http://www.unitedforlife.org/press_releases/070418.htm): "praises ruling"
Focus on the Family (http://listen.family.org/miscdaily/A000000461.cfm): "We thank God for this victory that affirms the value of human life."

These follow your lead, Dr. Dobson as you "thank God for this victory that affirms the value of human life."

Knowing right from wrong, and telling the truth is vital always, but even more so when the lives of children hang in the balance. Yet, for many years you have misled the Body of Christ about the ban, and now about the ruling itself.


Leaders Condemning this Evil Ruling

Ambassador Alan Keyes, RenewAmerica
Judie Brown, American Life League
Flip Benham, Operation Rescue / O.S.A.
Prof. Charles Rice, Notre Dame Law School
John Archibold, founding board member, Nat'l Right to Life, AUL
Jim Rudd, Covenant News
John Lofton, The American View
Brian Martin, on behalf of theologyweb.com
Eric Guttormson, TheologyOnline.com
Dr. Patrick Johnston, ProLifePhysicians.org
Chuck Baldwin, Crossroad Baptist Church
Steve Curtis, LifeCommercials.com
Ken & Jo Scott, ProLife Colorado
Gino Geraci, Calvary Chapel South Denver
Rev. Tom Euteneuer, Human Life International
Brian Rohrbough, Colorado Right To Life


(Email CRTL to add your ministry to this list of those condemning the ruling.)

Moral Relativism

Dr. Dobson, you have become a moral relativist and a legal positivist, along with virtually all the "pro-life" conservative judges put in office over the last quarter century. Justice Antonin Scalia said on Feb. 4, 2002 at a Pew Forum, "I will strike down Roe v. Wade, but I will also strike down a law that is the opposite of Roe v. Wade. ... One [side] wants no state to be able to prohibit abortion and the other one wants every state to have to prohibit abortion, and they're both wrong..." All Christians should grieve at this. No state, no subdivision of government whatsoever, has the authority to set up extermination camps, or abortion clinics. This wicked legal principle is not pro-life, it is pro-choice, by process. Dr. Dobson, you have joined Scalia and other heroes of the pro-life community, rejecting God's enduring com*mand, Do Not Murder, as the most fundamental and inviolable of all legal principles, preferring instead relativism based upon ever-changing "precedent."


On February 24, 2006, you wrote in re*sponse to these concerns that were posted at KGOV .com, and it grieves us to even repeat this, but you actually defended decisions of judges who rule to kill the innocent, as long as they bow to process. In 2000, federal judge Samuel Alito struck down New Jersey's partial-birth abortion ban and voted to keep PBA legal (Planned Parenthood vs. NJ), and you commended him for that ruling because he was merely following "the long-established prin*ciple" of "precedent." But there is an older legal precedent, Thou shall not murder, and when judges violate that standard, and do so on "principle," then the nation has become law*less. After World War II, the Allies convicted German judges whose defense for ruling to kill the innocent was that they had follow*ed precedent and the law. But moral relativism and legal positivism are no defense. And setting aside God's prohibition of murder is humanism. Over the years Dr. Dobson, you have slid to where you now advocate the legal theory of the defendants at Nuremberg.


On June 29, 2005 some of us in person gave a presentation to your V.P. Tom Minnery and your judicial analysts, warning emphatically against legal positivism and the mis*rep*resentations of the PBA ban. Two years ago in this same newspaper some of us published an open letter to you and we produced a DVD, Focus on the Strategy, to warn about legal positivism. And we were heartened that in 2006, you produced the excellent Truth Project in which Dr. Del Tackett, president of the Focus on the Family Institute, also warned specifically of legal positivism, cautioning that when "legal truth is based on the decision of the state," we have thrown off God's principles of justice as a foundation. But you have not heeded even your own ministry's warning. Our pro-life Christian leaders have turned the wicked humanist values of moral relativism and legal positivism into the greatest obligation of government, and so you defend rulings that uphold killing the innocent because you are a legal positivist. Many conservative lawyers grew up with an inclination toward Judeo-Christian morality and absolutes. They could have developed into defenders of life, but in*stead, now as judges they attack the only legal defense of the unborn, which is not based upon moral relativism, but upon personhood and the God-given right to life.

Online at Family.org you wrote, "President George W. Bush, the most pro-life President in United States history - has acted to protect children from the barbarity of partial birth abortion. I applaud the President for nominat*ing two pro-life Justices to [the] Court..." Dr. Dobson, you have perverted what it means to be pro-life. And you misled your supporters when you wrote, "We applaud the Court for joining President Bush and Congress in declar*ing that a civilized society must not condone such compassion*less and hideous acts against human beings." They did no such thing. And unless you repent, our Christian leaders may launch another 15-year destructive fundraiser, again under*mining the person*hood of the child, while twenty million more die.


Partial-birth abortion was one of the quickest ways to kill the baby, but it was also the most difficult to witness and contemplate, for the abortionist's staff, for the politician, and for society. Other more hideous late-term tech*niques are now legally preferred, although less visibly blatant, compared to a child killed once he is mostly outside his mother. This ban push*es the crime of late-term abortion back into the darkness of the womb, where it can lurk out of the public consciousness.

We ask you and your staff at Focus on the Family and all readers to do three things.
1) Please take up the standard from your famous 1990 pledge and withhold support from any effort that would intentionally[i] "kill one innocent baby."
2) Learn to recognize and then oppose moral relativism in law, called legal positivism.
3) Please go to Colorado RightToLife.org and sign their pledge (http://coloradorighttolife.org/pledge) titled: [b]40 Years / 50 Million Dead / One Commitment

to never compromise on God's enduring com*mand, Do not murder.
"There is a way that seems right to a man," warns Proverbs 14:12, "but its end is the way of death." Please repent, Dr. Dobson.

Signed,
- Brian Rohrbough, president, Colorado Right to Life
- Rev. Tom Euteneuer, president, Human Life International
- Flip Benham, director, Operation Rescue / Operation Save America
- Bob Enyart, pastor, Denver Bible Church

- Judie Brown, president, American Life League

TheAnalogman
May 25th 2007, 01:50 AM
I'm so shocked, I don't know what to say. I feel like crying. Matter of fact, I am.

Kelp
May 25th 2007, 01:52 AM
:sad: Some many great Christian ministries acting like morons...

Dee Dee Warren
May 25th 2007, 07:17 AM
Very interesting letter - informed me on a lot of things I did not know.

Ryokan
May 25th 2007, 07:24 AM
I feel deeply conflicted, since I really really don't like Dobson, but I think people are not appreciating the circumstances. It was a legal decision limiting abortion. That has never happened before. That it did not outlaw abortion during a certain time frame is the onloy reason it was not struck down by the court. The ruling was a victory for us. But until fetuses are recognized to have legal right we will do no better. And that was not gonna happen with this bill. So don't blame Dobson for the political realities. Aside from which, I don't know how far I trust this letters interpretation given the fact one of the signers is dishonest crazy Bob Enyart.

Bill the Cat
May 25th 2007, 07:27 AM
I'm witholding any judgement until I see a response. Seems like the CRTL is making some BOLD accusations. We can't win this war in a single decision. We have to take back bits at a time, and I see this as at least a turn, if not the steps I wanted, in the right direction.

yxboom
May 25th 2007, 08:57 AM
I'm witholding any judgement until I see a response. Seems like the CRTL is making some BOLD accusations. We can't win this war in a single decision. We have to take back bits at a time, and I see this as at least a turn, if not the steps I wanted, in the right direction.
have you read the ruling?

yxboom
May 25th 2007, 09:05 AM
I feel deeply conflicted, since I really really don't like Dobson, but I think people are not appreciating the circumstances. It was a legal decision limiting abortion. That has never happened before. That it did not outlaw abortion during a certain time frame is the onloy reason it was not struck down by the court. The ruling was a victory for us. But until fetuses are recognized to have legal right we will do no better. And that was not gonna happen with this bill. So don't blame Dobson for the political realities. Aside from which, I don't know how far I trust this letters interpretation given the fact one of the signers is dishonest crazy Bob Enyart.
that is what the letter is meant to expose. this ruling never once had the chance of saving one child's life but Dobson and other leaders state otherwise.

Bill the Cat
May 25th 2007, 09:27 AM
have you read the ruling?

Yes. It was particularly sickening and painful to read, but yes I read it. It marks the first time that the pro-abortion side lost a ruling, regardless of how miniscule the loss was.

Ryokan
May 25th 2007, 09:54 AM
that is what the letter is meant to expose. this ruling never once had the chance of saving one child's life but Dobson and other leaders state otherwise.

That's not really true. I am sure that people will decide not to go through with it based on concern or misinformation based on the ruling. Enyart would never be happy with anything short of, well, installing him as dictator so he could make it illegal. This letter was a cheap publicity ploy and incredibly short sighted in regards to ending abortion within the American legal and constitutional framework. And, as I said, I hate James Dobsons guts.

Bill the Cat
May 25th 2007, 10:13 AM
Ry,

You should try his guts with a nice Memphis dry rub. The tangy taste makes anyones' guts taste like home cookin'

:hehe:

yxboom
May 25th 2007, 04:06 PM
Yes. It was particularly sickening and painful to read, but yes I read it. It marks the first time that the pro-abortion side lost a ruling, regardless of how miniscule the loss was.
lost? what did they lose? all the ruling accomplished was it regulated a specific type of abortion procedure.

yxboom
May 25th 2007, 04:09 PM
That's not really true. I am sure that people will decide not to go through with it based on concern or misinformation based on the ruling. Enyart would never be happy with anything short of, well, installing him as dictator so he could make it illegal. This letter was a cheap publicity ploy and incredibly short sighted in regards to ending abortion within the American legal and constitutional framework. And, as I said, I hate James Dobsons guts.
show me anywhere in Scripture that we are to regulate "you shall not murder" and ill concede this is a short sighted ploy to boost Bob Enyart as dictator of America.

jwarrend
May 25th 2007, 04:16 PM
This same letter was discussed in a separate thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=97221&page=2). The letter distorts the ruling and appears to display a gross misunderstanding of what the Supreme Court does and does not do. Complaints that the law does not go far enough should be taken up with Congress, who should be encouraged to pass a more expansive law. You can hardly fault the Supreme Court for not adding prohibitions to the law that was in front of them. I'm not necessarily a fan of Dobson, and I am a fan of Keyes, but this letter is crap.

-Jeff

TheAnalogman
May 25th 2007, 04:23 PM
This same letter was discussed in a separate thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=97221&page=2). The letter distorts the ruling and appears to display a gross misunderstanding of what the Supreme Court does and does not do. Complaints that the law does not go far enough should be taken up with Congress, who should be encouraged to pass a more expansive law. You can hardly fault the Supreme Court for not adding prohibitions to the law that was in front of them. I'm not necessarily a fan of Dobson, and I am a fan of Keyes, but this letter is crap.

-Jeff

I just got a copy of the ruling. I look forward to reading it. I'll try to get to it tonight.

Teallaura
May 27th 2007, 01:20 PM
have you read the ruling?I have.

Dee Dee Warren
May 27th 2007, 02:12 PM
This same letter was discussed in a separate thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=97221&page=2). The letter distorts the ruling and appears to display a gross misunderstanding of what the Supreme Court does and does not do. Complaints that the law does not go far enough should be taken up with Congress, who should be encouraged to pass a more expansive law. You can hardly fault the Supreme Court for not adding prohibitions to the law that was in front of them. I'm not necessarily a fan of Dobson, and I am a fan of Keyes, but this letter is crap.

-Jeff

My understanding of the letter is not that it is faulting the Supreme Court per se but Dobson's use of it. And in that, the letter seems correct to me.

Dee Dee Warren
May 27th 2007, 02:12 PM
I just got a copy of the ruling. I look forward to reading it. I'll try to get to it tonight.

Can you forward me a copy please?

Dee Dee Warren
May 27th 2007, 02:14 PM
lost? what did they lose? all the ruling accomplished was it regulated a specific type of abortion procedure.

In one sense, something was lost, but it is a vacuous loss that amounts to nothing. As you and I discussed, PBAs can still be done as long as the doctor claims they only intended to deliver to the navel and not the neck. The thing that is lost is that no one can openly do a "to the neck" partial birth. Big whoop IMHO.

Dee Dee Warren
May 27th 2007, 02:16 PM
Yes. It was particularly sickening and painful to read, but yes I read it. It marks the first time that the pro-abortion side lost a ruling, regardless of how miniscule the loss was.

Would it be a victory if the pro-aborts lost the "right" to say, use gold vacuum hoses instead of stainless ones?

Teallaura
May 27th 2007, 02:41 PM
Links to various articles and parts of the decision (including opinion): http://www.federalabortionban.org/

Link to the opinion proper: http://www.federalabortionban.org/documents/05_380_opinion_gonzales_carhart.pdf



It sets a precedent that has not occurred since Roe v Wade (please tell me y'all knew Roe wasn't the first litigation on abortion). Yeah, that IS important if you ever hope for a reversal of Roe.

And one more 'but strict constructionists can't do that' line and I'm gonna scream! Yo, if the decision is found out of line with the Constitution or with preceding precedent (which exists for Roe) then a strict constructionist is quite consistent in voting for reversal. It's not the straight jacket people seem to think it is.

:argh:


Edit: The Act proper: http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/partial_birth_abortion_Ban_act_final_language.htm


This thing makes a mess our to the precedent that caused the Steinberg finding. Congress hedged its bet with the health exception (good luck meeting it!) but it has sooooooo set up a major problem for future pro-abortion litigation. The findings for Steinberg no longer rule*!!! :woohoo:





* The Court would have to overturn other, more sacrosanct decisions to ignore Congress over Steinberg or any other case finding. Not likely.

Teallaura
May 27th 2007, 02:45 PM
Would it be a victory if the pro-aborts lost the "right" to say, use gold vacuum hoses instead of stainless ones?In a way, that would be even better. Once a given piece of equipment fails to withstand scrutiny it opens up all the others to potential litigation. Manufacturers would be finding other things to make in a big hurry.

yxboom
May 27th 2007, 05:00 PM
In a way, that would be even better. Once a given piece of equipment fails to withstand scrutiny it opens up all the others to potential litigation. Manufacturers would be finding other things to make in a big hurry.
how exciting.

yxboom
May 27th 2007, 05:01 PM
Can you forward me a copy please?
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06pdf/05-380.pdf

Dee Dee Warren
May 27th 2007, 05:06 PM
In a way, that would be even better. Once a given piece of equipment fails to withstand scrutiny it opens up all the others to potential litigation. Manufacturers would be finding other things to make in a big hurry.

Oh come on. What if in the ruling outlawing gold vacuums, it gave specific instructions on how stainless vacuums were fine and how they should be used. Seems to me that would simply make the prior gold vacuum manufacturers make stainless ones instead.

PBA and late term abortions WERE NOT BANNED. That is how it is being sold. That is false. If people want to claim this is a victory on other grounds (like say.... you can only Jews in the ovens by backing them in rather than walking forward) then knock yourselves out. Just don't say it banned. It didn't. That is the problem.

Teallaura
May 27th 2007, 05:37 PM
Oh come on. What if in the ruling outlawing gold vacuums, it gave specific instructions on how stainless vacuums were fine and how they should be used. Seems to me that would simply make the prior gold vacuum manufacturers make stainless ones instead.

PBA and late term abortions WERE NOT BANNED. That is how it is being sold. That is false. If people want to claim this is a victory on other grounds (like say.... you can only Jews in the ovens by backing them in rather than walking forward) then knock yourselves out. Just don't say it banned. It didn't. That is the problem.
And you should know as well as I that once a opening exists someone is gonna try to exploit it. Lawsuits are a different animal and would not necessarily rely on a previous case's findings of evidence.

Unless your doctor has extraordinarily long fingers I'd love to know how the heck he could circumvent the Act on your 'not as far as the navel' basis - he has to hook the shoulders and baby just ain't all that long. Pull out far enough to do that and guess what pops out?

He sure can't argue 'life of the mother' without Mom having some kind of defect herself - mental health is excluded and it requires a physical problem to meet the health exception. Now, if Congress is correct and there's never a medical reason wouldn't it stand to reason that that exception as defined in the Act has extremely little chance of being upheld were it attempted?

Yes, the decision allows for other procedures - but the Act wasn't addressing them anyway. It actually goes against the long term pro-abortion arguments. Let's see doctor's to try circumventing with a C-section - let's see them argue 'life of the mother' that way!

And remember any future legal restrictions would begin a fresh round of litigation with all new evidence in the trial phase. Steinberg is a problem at the appellate level only if new facts aren't considered in the new trial (or the decision mirrored Steinberg) - and now Congress has created a separate finding which is part of precedence! It makes the future attempts to restrict more likely to succeed.

Late term abortions were never at issue in the act - only PBA's and it sure reads like it has banned something. Pulling baby halfway out and sucking out his little brains is no longer legal. Maybe it doesn't have the impact you want but don't call it nothing because that's simply not true.



You can sit out in the dark because the candle isn't big enough or you can use it to help start a larger fire. I'm for a larger fire myself - and wailing that the candle ain't what you want won't get one started.

Teallaura
May 27th 2007, 05:39 PM
how exciting.You prefer nothing to the little we got. Not impressed with that line of reasoning myself.

themuzicman
May 27th 2007, 05:51 PM
This may just turn out to be as bad for the RTL movement as Terri Schiavo was. Apparently the folks at CRTL don't grasp the significance of regulating an abortion procedure. ANY abortion procedure. Yes, it's a small step. It's a toe in the door.

But the turn around in the judicial rulings regarding abortion were going to have to start with a toe in the door anyway.

Look at the laws and judcial rulings over parental consent. Some RTLs were angry that a girl could go to a judge and get the same consent. But, in spite of that portion, it has limited abortions and provided a further basis for regulating underage abortion.

This ruling gives the legislature a basis upon which to build a case to regulate further abortion procedures.

But, rather than seeing it for what it is, the CRTL seems insistent on trying to tear the movement apart because they don't like what Dobson has said about it.

Michael

Dee Dee Warren
May 27th 2007, 05:53 PM
Teal you didn't really address my point.


And you should know as well as I that once a opening exists someone is gonna try to exploit it. Lawsuits are a different animal and would not necessarily rely on a previous case's findings of evidence.

None of this had a whit to do with civil liability.


Unless your doctor has extraordinarily long fingers I'd love to know how the heck he could circumvent the Act on your 'not as far as the navel' basis - he has to hook the shoulders and baby just ain't all that long. Pull out far enough to do that and guess what pops out?

And the case says as long as he intended only to the navel, but it goes all the way to the neck - its still cool. This didn't ban anything in practice.

As for the rest - it wasn't on point to me. I already said that if you want to count this as some kind of "victory" knock yourself out. Just don't call it a ban on late term abortions. It wasn't. PBAs are still legal.



Late term abortions were never at issue in the act ....

Then certainly you would agree that it is false to claim that late term abortions were banned. For the umpteenth time that was the point of the letter.


- only PBA's and it sure reads like it has banned something. Pulling baby halfway out and sucking out his little brains is no longer legal.

Yeah, pulling him to his navel and ripping a leg off is wayyyyy better. NO BABIES LIVES WERE SAVED BY THIS RULING.


Maybe it doesn't have the impact you want but don't call it nothing because that's simply not true.

Quote precisely where I called it nothing.


You can sit out in the dark because the candle isn't big enough or you can use it to help start a larger fire. I'm for a larger fire myself - and wailing that the candle ain't what you want won't get one started.

I prefer my wells unpoisoned, thank you.

Ryokan
May 27th 2007, 07:13 PM
show me anywhere in Scripture that we are to regulate "you shall not murder" and ill concede this is a short sighted ploy to boost Bob Enyart as dictator of America.
Huh? This is a ploy by Enyart to look good. It short sighted because unlesss we are to overthrow the system by force we need to work within it, and this was a victory within the system, plain and simple.

Ryokan
May 27th 2007, 07:15 PM
Yeah, pulling him to his navel and ripping a leg off is wayyyyy better. NO BABIES LIVES WERE SAVED BY THIS RULING.


But it is a step torwards saving babies lives. A successful one. Thus far we have had none. The first step on a long road is better than none at all, and celebrating such a step after 30 years of trying to step is reasonable.

jwarrend
May 28th 2007, 07:20 AM
My understanding of the letter is not that it is faulting the Supreme Court per se but Dobson's use of it. And in that, the letter seems correct to me.

If the CRTL simply wanted to take the position that "we don't applaud this ruling, as some others have, because late term abortions have", that's well and good. That would represent a difference of opinion and they're welcome to express their opinion and highlight their disagreement with Dr. Dobson. However, that is not grounds to publically rake him over the coals. And it most certainly is not grounds for CRTL to distort the wording of the ruling to unfairly malign the justices, and it's not a good idea to exhibit a misunderstanding of the Supreme Court's role in our government.

So, I think it's a legitimate opinion to say "this ruling is not a positive development". However, I think it's a stretch to say "this ruling is a negative development", and I think it's unfair and irresponsible to say "anyone who thinks this is a positive development should be publically shamed".

-Jeff

jwarrend
May 28th 2007, 08:51 AM
If the CRTL simply wanted to take the position that "we don't applaud this ruling, as some others have, because late term abortions have",

"have not been stopped", I meant...

-Jeff

Glenn P
May 28th 2007, 08:57 AM
I've just discovered this thread.

Even without the fine details of the ruling, some things were just obvious, and they were totally missed by well meaning Christians who celebrated this ruling. The ruling was not an improvement, not a step in the right direction, not a small victory, none of these. It was always clear that reducing abortion numbers was never going to happen as a result of what these justices decided.

jwarrend
May 28th 2007, 09:09 AM
I've just discovered this thread.

Even without the fine details of the ruling, some things were just obvious, and they were totally missed by well meaning Christians who celebrated this ruling. The ruling was not an improvement, not a step in the right direction, not a small victory, none of these. It was always clear that reducing abortion numbers was never going to happen as a result of what these justices decided.

Again, though, what else would you have the justices have done? The lack of teeth in the statute is a flaw in the statute itself. If we want a stronger law, we should pass a stronger law. What is important about the ruling is that it upheld a statute that restricted an abortion procedure. That's something that hasn't happened before, and it's a positive outcome. Of course, there's a long way yet to go.

-Jeff

Glenn P
May 28th 2007, 09:16 AM
I'm not denying that the justices upheld a statute that restricted one kind of abortion procedure and favoured other abortion procedures.

I'm not saying this ruling should not have been made.

I'm saying that it was clear from the outset that this ruling did nothing for the unborn, and it makes no sense that people were celebrating it as a pro-life ruling.

yxboom
May 28th 2007, 09:54 AM
But it is a step torwards saving babies lives. A successful one. Thus far we have had none. The first step on a long road is better than none at all, and celebrating such a step after 30 years of trying to step is reasonable.

you have got to be kidding me. this is no where near resembling a step towards saving babies lives. not once in the ruling is the life of the baby considered of any value. they might as well be referring to a slab of meat and you wouldn't know the better based on the language.

yxboom
May 28th 2007, 09:57 AM
Again, though, what else would you have the justices have done? The lack of teeth in the statute is a flaw in the statute itself. If we want a stronger law, we should pass a stronger law. What is important about the ruling is that it upheld a statute that restricted an abortion procedure. That's something that hasn't happened before, and it's a positive outcome. Of course, there's a long way yet to go.

-Jeff

this sounds a lot like the defense used at the Nuremberg trials.

Pilgrim
May 28th 2007, 09:58 AM
That's not really true. I am sure that people will decide not to go through with it based on concern or misinformation based on the ruling. Enyart would never be happy with anything short of, well, installing him as dictator so he could make it illegal. This letter was a cheap publicity ploy and incredibly short sighted in regards to ending abortion within the American legal and constitutional framework. And, as I said, I hate James Dobsons guts.

I wouldn't say I hate Dobson, I just say, "Focus on your own darn family, man!" Except I typically don't use darn. But your point is well taken. When Dobson represents the moderate voice (or as Enyart might describe it, the Liberal voice) over and against his conservative allies, well, then conservative Christianity and the values of the Pro-Life movement are dangerously close to simply being marginalized to the point where no body cares what they have to say anymore because they just seem totally fringe and foolish.

I agree, this ruling is a victory for those of us who are pro-life simply because it's the first time the pro-abortion crowd has lost a ruling. I also agree that people are missing the distinctions between what the Supreme court does and what congress does. It saddens me because all this frothing at the mouth is just going to make it harder and harder for us pro life people to have our voice heard in meaningful ways.

Dee Dee Warren
May 28th 2007, 10:02 AM
I'm not denying that the justices upheld a statute that restricted one kind of abortion procedure and favoured other abortion procedures.

I'm not saying this ruling should not have been made.

I'm saying that it was clear from the outset that this ruling did nothing for the unborn, and it makes no sense that people were celebrating it as a pro-life ruling.

And that is the point of the letter. I disagree with the letter's "I rebuke you" tone, but the content of the point I agree with. This is being hailed as something it is not and deceiving some people. No babies lives were saved as of today. People think they were. I don't care if some people want to call it a victory, but be very sober about what it actually is.

Dee Dee Warren
May 28th 2007, 10:03 AM
I also agree that people are missing the distinctions between what the Supreme court does and what congress does.


This well keeps on getting poisoned but who exactly in this thread has done that. I keep hearing it repeated over and over that is being done but repitition doesn't make it accurate.

Dee Dee Warren
May 28th 2007, 10:05 AM
But it is a step torwards saving babies lives. A successful one. Thus far we have had none. The first step on a long road is better than none at all, and celebrating such a step after 30 years of trying to step is reasonable.

I feel like I am talking to walls here quite honestly. The objection isn't to simply celebrate a ruling, though Enyart might have had a problem with that as well - it was the way it is being touted. At least that is what it is for me. Until I learned more, the impression I got from Christian sources is that actual real babies lives were being saved and that this was a "pro-life" decision. It wasn't. It may lead to one. But this isn't one.

Dee Dee Warren
May 28th 2007, 10:07 AM
Huh? This is a ploy by Enyart to look good. It short sighted because unlesss we are to overthrow the system by force we need to work within it, and this was a victory within the system, plain and simple.

I am not a fan or a nonfan of Enyart. Enyart is a nonfactor to me, as is Dobson quite frankly. However, the general atmosphere that is being propogated in Christian circles is that this ruling is more than it is. It is like holding an acorn and telling ever and telling everyone you have a tree.

Dee Dee Warren
May 28th 2007, 10:08 AM
I disagree with the letter's "I rebuke you" tone

I want to stress that as a matter of fact. I think this whole "I rebuke you" thing is blown out to abusive proportions within Christianity. We see that even here on the forum where someone doesn't agree with a moderation decision and before you know it, they are calling down judgments from God. That part of Christianity sickens me.

Pilgrim
May 28th 2007, 10:16 AM
This well keeps on getting poisoned but who exactly in this thread has done that. I keep hearing it repeated over and over that is being done but repitition doesn't make it accurate.

Poisoning the well? How so? Poisoning the well means impuning the source. ie, if I said, "well, it's Enyart talking and he never has anything good to say so this can't be good either." That's poisoning the well.

As I understand it, and I think I understand it correctly, the main issue is with Dobson praising the SCOTUS. People don't think he should. Why? Because the SCOTUS didn't do anything special in the opinion of a small portion of the pro-life crowd. That is to say, the SCOTUS ruling didn't affect things they way people think they should be affected. And to that complaint some of us have pointed out: The SCOTUS did the most it could do given the legislation they were handed to rule on.

The point being. I think, that the SCOTUS should be given some small praise for wrenching a tiny little victory out of a really bad piece of legislation at all. There's really nothing much else they could have done but the still got at least one procedure banned. First time that's ever happened. Like Bob said...Baby steps. And if the prolife community gets split on this then the just prove the other side right, that we're just a bunch of fringe lunatics who can't even get along with each other much less represent a majority view point. We begin to look like many other activist groups who seem to feed on the drama more than the do the issue.

Pilgrim
May 28th 2007, 10:19 AM
I am not a fan or a nonfan of Enyart. Enyart is a nonfactor to me, as is Dobson quite frankly. However, the general atmosphere that is being propogated in Christian circles is that this ruling is more than it is. It is like holding an acorn and telling ever and telling everyone you have a tree.

Or holding a fetus and telling every one you have an adult? the point being, the possibility of a tree exists in that acorn. Or maybe a more Biblical point of view would be to speak of what the mustard seed can become?

Dee Dee Warren
May 28th 2007, 11:19 AM
Or holding a fetus and telling every one you have an adult? the point being, the possibility of a tree exists in that acorn. Or maybe a more Biblical point of view would be to speak of what the mustard seed can become?

Please tell me who claims a fetus is an adult or leave me convinced this is more well poisoning. I really wonder if you are attempting to listen to what I am saying or not.

I never denied or cared if someone wants to claim this is has potential for something bigger or broader. Just don't claim it now. I don't care if someone claims that an acorn CAN grow into a tree, but it isn't a tree NOW. That is whole point. This conversation is extraordinarily frustrating as I don't see on the "moderate" side a willingness at all to see what my point is - and that is sadly ironic.

Dee Dee Warren
May 28th 2007, 11:26 AM
Poisoning the well? How so? Poisoning the well means impugning the source. ie, if I said, "well, it's Enyart talking and he never has anything good to say so this can't be good either." That's poisoning the well.

Poisoning the well is not limited to the genetic fallacy. One can poison the well by consistently painting one's opposition as something they are not. This is where the well has been consistently poisoned in this thread:


I also agree that people are missing the distinctions between what the Supreme court does and what congress does.

Unless you mean some ephemeral "people" that are not being quoted in this thread, this is how the people in this thread have been painted. Do you think I don't understand the distinctions? Do you think Boom does not? If not.... then why even throw up that canard? I have never said anything even remotely that would lead to such a statement.


As I understand it, and I think I understand it correctly, the main issue is with Dobson praising the SCOTUS.

That is only part of it, and I have over and over in this thread said what the main issue is - to me and boom. That is why this is frustrating. The issue is that it is being painted as something it is not - misrepresentation by exaggeration is going on. While Enyart might have a problem with ANY praise (he likely would, and I would not), that is not my issue.


People don't think he should. Why? Because the SCOTUS didn't do anything special in the opinion of a small portion of the pro-life crowd.

See above. And just being someone who is in a small portion that means what? We should be cowed into silence? I really don't call if I am "marginalized" - that is not a boogey man to me. I care if I am RIGHT. I don't believe in utilitarian politics if there are other options.



That is to say, the SCOTUS ruling didn't affect things they way people think they should be affected. And to that complaint some of us have pointed out: The SCOTUS did the most it could do given the legislation they were handed to rule on.

That hasn't been the main point.


And if the prolife community gets split on this then the just prove the other side right, that we're just a bunch of fringe lunatics who can't even get along with each other much less represent a majority view point.

I care little about solidarity at the expense of truth. I parted ways with the pro-life majority years ago when they decided that appealing to the selfishness of the woman was more appropriate than focusing on the killed child.

Pilgrim
May 28th 2007, 04:18 PM
Please tell me who claims a fetus is an adult or leave me convinced this is more well poisoning. I really wonder if you are attempting to listen to what I am saying or not.

As far as I am aware every one of us here who is pro life has argued that the fetus has the potential to become something greater than it is. That is the potential of life and growth. Am I mistaken in that?

As far as well poisoning, I really wonder if you know what that is? I have not attempted at all to poison a well. I think perhaps you are confusing logical fallacies but I have no idea for the life of me which one you actually mean to be raising?


I don't care if someone claims that an acorn CAN grow into a tree, but it isn't a tree NOW. That is whole point. So then you agree that the abortionist has a point when he or she claims that the fetus can be destroyed because it is not yet a person? I don't think that's what you mean but you seem to be arguing both sides of the coin on this one?

Pilgrim
May 28th 2007, 04:24 PM
I can appreciate what you are saying, It makes sense to me, it really does and I apologize if I've misunderstood some of the nuances of the exchanges going on here. But in all honesty, you will never achieve your goals (and we have the same goals here) with the tone you are setting. It will inevitably marginalize you and your voice will not be heard at all in a way that can affect meaningful change.

Dee Dee Warren
May 28th 2007, 05:51 PM
As far as I am aware every one of us here who is pro life has argued that the fetus has the potential to become something greater than it is. That is the potential of life and growth. Am I mistaken in that?

Yes. I have never argued that fetus has a potential to become something greater than it is. It is ontologically always a human being. It does have the potential to be a more developed human being.


As far as well poisoning, I really wonder if you know what that is? I have not attempted at all to poison a well. I think perhaps you are confusing logical fallacies but I have no idea for the life of me which one you actually mean to be raising?

I explained what I mean. Let me try to give an example, my memory is failing me but there was some abortion issue a while back where some liberal spun it as some guy supporting bad health care for women. But that was not the issue. It was painting someone's position incorrectly. It is like saying if I oppose single people adopting, I am opposed to people being single and want everyone to be married. It is a distortion.



So then you agree that the abortionist has a point when he or she claims that the fetus can be destroyed because it is not yet a person? I don't think that's what you mean but you seem to be arguing both sides of the coin on this one?

Of course that's not what I mean. Your example said someone calling a fetus an adult. It is not. But being a person does not require being an adult. A fetus cannot be destroyed because it is a human being (person) from the time of conception. Some abortionists don't believe that. Some Germans didn't think Jews were persons.

Dee Dee Warren
May 28th 2007, 05:52 PM
I can appreciate what you are saying, It makes sense to me, it really does and I apologize if I've misunderstood some of the nuances of the exchanges going on here. But in all honesty, you will never achieve your goals (and we have the same goals here) with the tone you are setting. It will inevitably marginalize you and your voice will not be heard at all in a way that can affect meaningful change.

I disagree. I think people can smell comprimising hooey (that is my opinion), and I think God honours a refusal to comprimise when it comes to murder. We are not talking here about a squabble over what colour the carpet should be in the narthex.

Please do not take offense at my opinion that the "moderate" position is comprimising. I mean no personal offense, merely trying to be honest in my exchange. I am sorry if it sounds offensive. If it is, it is with the goal to encourage you to take a stronger stand because I think it is right to do so. Not trying to be a jerk or anything.

jwarrend
May 28th 2007, 07:27 PM
this sounds a lot like the defense used at the Nuremberg trials.

Well, that remark is certainly consistent in tone with the original letter that you're championing, and it contributes about as much substance.

-Jeff

yxboom
May 28th 2007, 08:14 PM
As far as I am aware every one of us here who is pro life has argued that the fetus has the potential to become something greater than it is. That is the potential of life and growth. Am I mistaken in that?

is the fetus a person or not? all this potential to become something greater is nonsense.

would i be mistaken to think you would allow an abortion to be performed if the "health/well-being" of the mother is at stake?

Ryokan
May 29th 2007, 03:46 PM
I feel like I am talking to walls here quite honestly. The objection isn't to simply celebrate a ruling, though Enyart might have had a problem with that as well - it was the way it is being touted. At least that is what it is for me. Until I learned more, the impression I got from Christian sources is that actual real babies lives were being saved and that this was a "pro-life" decision. It wasn't. It may lead to one. But this isn't one.

I had lower expectations I guess.

Bill the Cat
May 30th 2007, 08:08 AM
There is a news article on OneNewsNow about the ruling:

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/04/supremes_ruling_on_partial-bir.php

Dee Dee Warren
May 30th 2007, 08:16 AM
That article is correct. I was thinking of the same death penalty allusion the other day. The anti-capital punishment folks may think that outlawing the electric chair was a "victory" for their side, but it simply wasn't. The Court affirmed that validity of capital punishment, just said, "don't do it this way."

A ruling on abortion saying "don't do it this way" and claiming it is a victory assumes that before abortions could be done any way anyone felt like it. Like - before there were never any restrictions and now there is. That simply isn't true. Otherwise the bargain-basement abortion would legally be a coathanger. It isn't.