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John Kenyon
May 25th 2007, 06:30 AM
Let Peter the fisherman before he met Cornelius be a symbol of the conventional Christian in the conventional Church. Peter was a Jewish fisherman. Cornelius was a Roman Centurion in the Italian regiment stationed in Caeserea. In Acts 10 they face the requirement of forging a new Jewish-Gentile church.

Prior to this pivotal meeting Peter was a conventional Jewish-Christian. He was a fisherman who met Jesus of Nazareth, followed him, ate with him, slept on the road with him, and accepted his teachings. Peter deeply loved the man, accepted that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, Savior of the world, understood that Jesus would be crucified, and was willing to die with him, at least up until the moment of truth. With all this in his favor, he was nonetheless a religious Jew who saw Jesus as another Jew, saw God as the national god of the Jews, and saw true believers as Jews or converts to Judaism. He had a genuine, but conventional faith.

Conventional Christianity flourishes in regions of cultural uniformity because no outside forces challenge it. Mixed with national politics and patriotic fervor, conventional Christianity becomes a potent force. Prior to the twentieth century, the Popes in Rome require hegemony over the Roman Empire. King Henry VIII requires that the Crown of England be the head of the national Church. French Catholicism is more French than Catholic. During the French Revolution the ‘Declaration of the Rights of Man’ had a subtext called The Civil Constitution of the Clergy that attempted to seize control of the French Catholic Church for the new French state. In Germany during the reformation, Martin Luther believes that the head of State should choose the religion of the state, though I am slow to consider Luther conventional. When Hitler and the National Socialists rise to power, they form the German Reich Church devoted to subordinating conventional German Christians to the Third Reich. In Italy Mussolini seeks to co-opt the Papacy, and failing turns on the church viciously. In Spain, the monarchy is quite Roman Catholic, and in combination with the plenitude of Papal power has a profound influence in Central and Latin America up to this day. Recently, International Communism attempted to control the religion of the people of the Soviet Union with a state run bureaucracy called the State Office for Ecclesiastical Affairs. When it quickly failed, the Communist Party adopted more extreme policies to rid the Soviet Union of religion altogether. Conventional religion in the United States rejected outside political authority over it, but both clergy and politician can unite church and state in various causes. The American flag stands side by side the Christian flag in many churches.

Christianity does not exist in a vacuum apart from culture, nationalism and politics, despite the tensions among them. By analogy, before Peter the Fisherman met Jesus he is a zealot, intent on throwing the Romans out of Judea in the interest of a free Jewish state. The temple religion in Jerusalem is the conventional religion of the Jews, but oppressed by the Romans directly through King Herod. In turn the temple religion oppresses the people. Peter is a religious Jew, but opposed to the policies of the High Priest that seek concordats with Herod and Caesar for such things as crucifixions. Peter knows and loves Jesus, but if he never meets Cornelius, Peter just goes into all the world converting people to cultural, political, nationalistic Judaism, as he interprets Jesus of Nazareth. However, what does it mean for Christianity to be source of change? It means that Peter and Cornelius have to begin afresh the church of Jesus Christ in Caesarea.

Multiculturalism appears to resolve the tension, but ultimately fails the Church. Peter the Jewish Fisherman meets Cornelius the Roman Centurion from the Italian regiment. By what sign or symbol do they declare their new Jewish-Gentile unity in Christ to the world? Multiculturalism says that Peter should continue being nothing but a religious Jew and Cornelius should continue being nothing but a God-fearing Roman centurion. But the Holy Spirit brought together form a new order in the body and blood of Christ. Call it Judeo-Gentilism in Caesarea, one small step towards inheriting the earth.

Multiculturalism, therefore, sends a mixed message. On the one hand it says that it is jolly good to be Irish or African or Polish or Italian or Jewish. On the other hand, we must leave our neighbors to their own culture. So Peter the Fisherman agrees in part because he does not want to stop being Jewish, which is fine. Yet he knows Cornelius, and wants him to be a good Jew, too, in order to be a real Christian. In this multi-cultural scenario, he must resolve the tension by remaining Jewish and allowing Cornelius to remain Roman without making the effort to form the Judeo-Gentile synthesis in the body and blood of Christ.

White conservative Christians in the United States love Jesus, and so they want to convert everyone into white social, political and theologically conservative Christians so that they too can love Jesus. Black conventional Christianity can be no less ethno-centric. One always tends to side with the underdog in a fight, but what good is the world if Peter, the once oppressed Jewish fisherman, rules with an iron scepter, or if Cornelius the loyal Roman centurion rules? There is no change. No new culture. No new politic. No knew identity through Christ in the world and for the world.

Multiculturalism also wants its followers to accept that all cultures are equal, and therefore they all ought to be equally respected and protected at law. This has an appealing ring to a fair-minded person, and serves a purpose when it comes to minor issues like styles of dress, table manners, preferences in music, legal rights and other such matters. But all cultures are not equal. Christianity has the mandate to remain in deep tension with the most developed cultures in the world. It is the call to meet and move forward in this world with the politic of the body and blood of Christ.

In the same breath, multiculturalism is deeply invested in the notion that objective truth and superior values do not exist in a religious context, either, so beating drums and dancing to Voo Doo gods must be greeted on an equal plane with worshipping Jesus, Molech, Diana, Dagon, Allah, Shiva, and Caesar Augustus as high god. The recent attraction to oriental religions so appealing to so many bored with conventional Christianity signals a healthy interest in an alternative to the failure of Peter the fisherman and Cornelius to work the problem today. In their own day they did work the problem. The cross and the resurrection of Jesus became the cause of unity among Jews and Gentiles; the gifts of the Holy Spirit, baptism and the Lord’s Supper were the visible signs for all to see. And significantly, the Holy Spirit was driving the gospel out of Jewish Jerusalem into the gentile world. Both the cost of discipleship and new life in the resurrection, therefore, came under attack from within conventional Jewish-Christianity. Soon enough the Holy Spirit and the sacraments became divisive and schismatic issues in the conventional Church, leading to the shedding of the blood of countless thousands, and still frustrating the ecumenical movement today. Conventional Christianity, like conventional Judaism, will crucify Jesus again for asking them to “Change, for the kingdom of God is at hand.”

Continuing with our symbols, Peter the Fisherman and Cornelius the Roman Centurion realize their responsibility is to change the world beginning with them, to create something new and better and visible in this world. Peter cannot participate in the enterprise without offending the conventional Jewish-Christians in Jerusalem. It is hard enough for him at the personal level. Cornelius is free to choose his religion before Caesar, but only so long as he burns incense to Caesar as a god incarnate on Earth. In the multicultural religious scenario, they resolve the tension by agreeing that Peter should continue worshipping God only as a Jew, and Cornelius should be a Christian that burns incense to Caesar. The Holy Spirit rejects this.
Outside the mandate of multiculturalism, both Peter and Cornelius are at enmity with the world. What they produce in Caesarea is the church militant and highly dangerous to themselves and others. It has no other agenda but to follow the apocalyptic and eschatological Jesus of Nazareth, crucified and raised from the dead. I am content to say that this is not the racially, economically, politically, socially, and culturally segregated church visible on the corners of most cities and towns throughout the United States today, love Jesus though the people in them may. In some cases the particular church has not yet been challenged, but in many cases it has declined to accept the challenge.

Finally, we cannot avoid being a part of a culture or long avoid these difficult, traumatic changes. In fact, Jesus of Nazareth risen from the dead demands that we make them, demands that we change and construct the new world order of perfect justice and peace beginning in our own time, place and circumstances, because he will build it with us or without us. The great commission is a complex challenge in this global era, far more so than for one Jew and one Roman in the first century Middle East. But the mandate can be found in Genesis 1. It is a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament. It is at the heart of the gospels and the remainder of the New Testament canon.

What do you say?:teeth:

FreezBee
May 30th 2007, 07:20 AM
Finally, we cannot avoid being a part of a culture or long avoid these difficult, traumatic changes. In fact, Jesus of Nazareth risen from the dead demands that we make them, demands that we change and construct the new world order of perfect justice and peace beginning in our own time, place and circumstances, because he will build it with us or without us. The great commission is a complex challenge in this global era, far more so than for one Jew and one Roman in the first century Middle East. But the mandate can be found in Genesis 1. It is a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament. It is at the heart of the gospels and the remainder of the New Testament canon.

What do you say?:teeth:

Good post, John :thumb:

A agree with you that we always begin in our own time, place and circumstances. And that because we are always part of a culture.

But you write about "the new world order of perfect justice" and I have to ask you, if you do not think that you might have read a few too many SciFi books?

Not that it's a crime to have that -- I did that my self when I was young -- but it is something we need to get over, don't you think?


- FreezBee

John Kenyon
June 4th 2007, 06:44 AM
Dear Freezbee,

No. I refer to more scripture than can efficiently be cited, but a good starting place is Genesis, chapters 1 and 2, and Revelation, chapters 21 and 22. Let's have a serious discussion. But I do like reading science fiction.

John

FreezBee
June 6th 2007, 10:03 AM
Dear Freezbee,

No. I refer to more scripture than can efficiently be cited, but a good starting place is Genesis, chapters 1 and 2, and Revelation, chapters 21 and 22. Let's have a serious discussion.

Ok, a serious discussion? Let us see, if I can accommodate :smile:

You write:

Outside the mandate of multiculturalism, both Peter and Cornelius are at enmity with the world. What they produce in Caesarea is the church militant and highly dangerous to themselves and others. It has no other agenda but to follow the apocalyptic and eschatological Jesus of Nazareth, crucified and raised from the dead. I am content to say that this is not the racially, economically, politically, socially, and culturally segregated church visible on the corners of most cities and towns throughout the United States today, love Jesus though the people in them may. In some cases the particular church has not yet been challenged, but in many cases it has declined to accept the challenge.

But you forget that Peter, as described by Luke (in Acts), has problems freeing himself from being a Jew. It's not as simple as that we are transformed in no time. Was Peter ever militant? Corneliys, the Roman centurion, might have added some militancy.

Jesus does say (in Matthew) that he has come with a sword, but that does not necessarily imply a militant church. Of course, when Christianity was new, it would usually be single individuals that converted, occasionally offending other family members. So early Christianity broke many families, yet, today it is heralded as the last bastion of the family!

So, shall we split families, or shall we make them?

And there are many interpretations of Genesis and of Revelation. So, what exactly are we supposed to do?

You write:

Finally, we cannot avoid being a part of a culture or long avoid these difficult, traumatic changes. In fact, Jesus of Nazareth risen from the dead demands that we make them, demands that we change and construct the new world order of perfect justice and peace beginning in our own time, place and circumstances, because he will build it with us or without us. The great commission is a complex challenge in this global era, far more so than for one Jew and one Roman in the first century Middle East. But the mandate can be found in Genesis 1. It is a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament. It is at the heart of the gospels and the remainder of the New Testament canon.

What is 'perfect justice'? Is death penalty part of 'perfect justice'? If so, isn't a society, where death penalty is part of 'perfect justice' too imperfect to be worth the effort?

What is 'peace'? The war in Iraq is over, said George W. Bush. So I guess there is 'peace' in Iraq. And in Afghanistan.


Sorry, John, I have every reason to think that you are a nice person, but your Christian Reconstructionism isn't, what the world needs. And if your reading of the Bible is right, then the Bible is wrong.



But I do like reading science fiction.

Ok, that sort of excuses you :smile:


- FreezBee

John Kenyon
June 11th 2007, 09:18 AM
Thank you for a serious, well thought out, challenging reply to my thread. You raise many points.

1. Yes, Peter had a very hard time. And this is the point. As a prototype he shows us the difficulty of Christians from very different cultures and theological orientations forging unity in a conrete sense rather than retreating back into their own cultural comfort zone.

2. According to the early church fathers, Peter was a zealot before he met Jesus. But by militant I mean the way in which the community of Christians is at enmity with the world; from the persecutions of Christian in the first through the twentieth century from forces outside the church and static, culturally ingrown forces within it. It is a conscious emnity; that is, a militant attitude that faith knows it must overcome "the world" in this world.

3. So, yes, I agree. Faith in Christ can set members of a family against one another.

4. Briefly, despite various, creative and fruitful interpretations of Genesis and Revelation, enough is made plain, a vast, sufficient amoung is made plain for our edification, salvation and unity.

5. What is perfect justice and peace? A complex question that ends in faith in God's execution of perfect justice and peace. Abraham wanted mercy on Sodom and Gomorrah, but God destroyed the cities. Jonah wanted judgment on Ninevah, but God spared it. Both made their case before God, both were over-ruled by divine judgement. It means that we, his people, can have our opinions on matters such as the death penalty, abortion, etc. etc., but at the end of the day we MUST distinguish between our judgment and the final judgement of the supreme judge over-all. Matthew 25 is to the point.

Sorry to be so brief. You might visit my forum at www.igcsforum.org . You would be welcome.

FreezBee
June 11th 2007, 10:01 AM
Thank you for a serious, well thought out, challenging reply to my thread. You raise many points.

I will assume that you are serious here. So I will say thank you for responding to my points.


1. Yes, Peter had a very hard time. And this is the point. As a prototype he shows us the difficulty of Christians from very different cultures and theological orientations forging unity in a conrete sense rather than retreating back into their own cultural comfort zone.

Yes, I think I agree here -- as Galatians 3:28 says, 'we are all one in Jesus Christ', but we are always in this world and subject to local rules for conduct and so on. But the problem I see with generating a common culture is that it will tend to be the culture of someone that is simply pressed down over the rest. Don't forget that Peter remained a Jew, he just learned to eat with the gentiles, but still he retained his Jewish identity.


2. According to the early church fathers, Peter was a zealot before he met Jesus. But by militant I mean the way in which the community of Christians is at enmity with the world; from the persecutions of Christian in the first through the twentieth century from forces outside the church and static, culturally ingrown forces within it. It is a conscious emnity; that is, a militant attitude that faith knows it must overcome "the world" in this world.

But what is "the world"? As a teenager I was a Marxist and much into, what is called 'mon-Marxism', a kind of Marxism, where all your love is the love of the Revolution, all you do has to serve the evolution, and so on. The Revolution didn't come.

The Danish 19th century theologian and teacher N.F.S. Grundtvig said: "human first, then Christian". You are in this world and should not deny it. It is the will of God that it should be so.

Christians have been persecuted, but they have themselves persecuted as well. I see a danger in any kind of believing that you are doing the one and only right thing.

I think we must work together with this world, because it is the world that is there :smile:


3. So, yes, I agree. Faith in Christ can set members of a family against one another.

Indeed it can :smile:


4. Briefly, despite various, creative and fruitful interpretations of Genesis and Revelation, enough is made plain, a vast, sufficient amoung is made plain for our edification, salvation and unity.

Maybe, but how are we to know? What is plain? Most of us cannot read the Bible in its original languages, and translations, no matter how good, will distort, what's in there. On an abstract level, of course, there is not much to fight about: there is only one God, the creator and upholder of everything. But, again, we need to live concrete lives.


5. What is perfect justice and peace? A complex question that ends in faith in God's execution of perfect justice and peace. Abraham wanted mercy on Sodom and Gomorrah, but God destroyed the cities. Jonah wanted judgment on Ninevah, but God spared it. Both made their case before God, both were over-ruled by divine judgement. It means that we, his people, can have our opinions on matters such as the death penalty, abortion, etc. etc., but at the end of the day we MUST distinguish between our judgment and the final judgement of the supreme judge over-all. Matthew 25 is to the point.

Yes, but, again, we must judge everyday of our life -- knowing that we do not possess the knowledged needed. We still must do it. I find that referring to, what you call "God's execution of perfect justice and peace" is little more than a faint ideal, something that we can hardly catch a glimpse of. And even if we can, we don't know if it was just a reflection of the plank in your own eye?


Sorry to be so brief. You might visit my forum at www.igcsforum.org . You would be welcome.

Ok, then maybe I will come :smile:


- FreezBee

John Kenyon
June 18th 2007, 08:16 AM
I wish I knew how to cut and paste quotes like you. I am still astounded by the electric typewriter.

1. One faith, one Lord, one baptism. One culture? No, but it poses a serious challenge for the church. Consider not just Peter and Cornelius, but what occured when the Jewish and Gentile converts of the Apostle Paul left the synagogues. The Gentiles left behind their polytheisms and the Jews their requirement for circumcism, but we don't know much about how they worshipped and shared their community life. Only that shared in common the sacrements of baptism and the Lord's supper. But certainly they had to work the problem. Today I argue that the church in the United States remains the most racially, culturally, politically, and economically segregated movement in the land. We see the struggle for parity in all other aspects of life, but on Sunday morning the faithful retreat back into their own churches to worship God.

2. What is the world? A good, complex question. The short answer from a biblical perspective is events that occur outside the command to love the Lord our God with all of our heart and mind and soul, and our neighbor as our self. And, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Within this perspective the world is a creation of God, and a good one.

3. I can only guess at what the Danish theologian meant by being human first, and a Christian second. We cannot be other than human, but we can be other than Christian. Yet, if being a man or woman in Christ is what was intended for us by God, then to be a Christian is to be most fully human in the image of God.

4. If I understand you correctly, then I agree that we cannot know that we are doing the one and only right thing. But in the Abraham/Jonah model, both were on the same with God about the nature of human evil and the need for it to end. The question was how? By destruction or change?

5. So, yes, it often seems to me as well that God's ways are unknown and inscrutible, like a 'faint ideal', as you say. On the other hand, the general will of God known through the greatest commandment and the golden rule is sufficient for most circumstance, 'close at hand' and leaves no substantial room for pleading ignorance over morality. Not that we can avoid moral dilemmas or the entanglements of competing interest (the wheat and the tares parable).

6. The art and science of translating from one language to another is actually fairly advanced. I live in a Spanish speaking country, and must traverse from English to Spanish and back all the time. Likewise with the Masoretic Hebrew of the OT and Koine Greek of the NT. A minimal amount remains obscures, but not an accurate sense of the big picture, nor any things that goes to the essentials of faith, salvation and unity.

I hope you visited www.igcsforum.org. You would be a welcome member. I just added another twelve subforums to enrich the discussion. One of them is "Comic Relief". Know any good religious jokes.