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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Does Faith Makes Us Better?

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  • Does Faith Makes Us Better?

    And is probably key in survival.

    Belief in moral-watching, all-knowing, punitive gods might have helped human societies grow far beyond small, close-knit groups, a new study shows. Researchers who ran an experiment with a total of 591 people in eight different small-scale societies around the world found that people who believed their deity of choice knew about their misdeeds and would punish them were more likely to play fairly in a game where money was on the line.

    The findings, described in the journal Nature, hint at the integral role that certain religious beliefs may have played in the dramatic expansion of human societies.

    Part of what has made humans as a species so successful is their ability to form social bonds beyond family ties, developing larger and increasingly complex social networks. Many researchers have tried to explore what traits seem to power humans’ ability to cooperate -- sometimes to their individual disadvantage -- for the benefit of the greater good....


    When they ran the numbers, the scientists found that those whose religion featured an omniscient, moral-judging and punitive main deity were more likely to put a coin in the stranger’s cup (14.53 coins in Game 1 and 14.58 in Game 2) than those whose gods would not hold them accountable (12.50 coins in Game 1 and 12.97 in Game 2). In short, their results were more likely to match the 50-50 split (15 coins in the stranger's cup) than those whose gods were not the all-knowing, punishing type. Fear of supernatural reprisal, it seems, keeps people from cheating....


    ...So having this kind of a deity and religious system could improve group cohesion, make you more likely to behave in less risky ways and allow one group to, say, conquer another one and take over their territory.

    http://www.latimes.com/science/scien...210-story.html
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    And is probably key in survival.
    Asking if faith made us better and implying that we still need it is like asking if training wheels helped you learn how to ride a bike and saying you still need them.


    If faith made us better the most faithful countries would be the safest and the least faithful would be the least safest. That is not true.
    Blog: Atheism and the City

    If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.

    Comment


    • #3
      The fact is, we do not know anything without faith, that is, believing something.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        And is probably key in survival.
        This is not supported by the facts.

        "Those societies today that are the most religious — where faith in God is strong and religious participation is high — tend to have the highest violent crime rates, while those societies in which faith and church attendance are the weakest — the most secular societies — tend to have the lowest." - Phil Zuckerman, professor of secular studies at Pitzer College.

        Furthermore, "Children with a Religious Upbringing Show Less Altruism", which can only be detrimental to survival of a 'social species' such as us.

        http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...less-altruism/
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          This is not supported by the facts.

          "Those societies today that are the most religious — where faith in God is strong and religious participation is high — tend to have the highest violent crime rates, while those societies in which faith and church attendance are the weakest — the most secular societies — tend to have the lowest." - Phil Zuckerman, professor of secular studies at Pitzer College.

          Furthermore, "Children with a Religious Upbringing Show Less Altruism", which can only be detrimental to survival of a 'social species' such as us.

          http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...less-altruism/
          Well according to this new study you are wrong:

          Belief in moral-watching, all-knowing, punitive gods might have helped human societies grow far beyond small, close-knit groups, a new study shows. Researchers who ran an experiment with a total of 591 people in eight different small-scale societies around the world found that people who believed their deity of choice knew about their misdeeds and would punish them were more likely to play fairly in a game where money was on the line.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Well according to this new study you are wrong:
            Where's the link?

            The study quoted in ‘Scientific American’ on February 9, 2016 says the opposite:

            “…new research conducted in six countries around the world suggests that a religious upbringing may actually yield children who are less altruistic.”

            http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...less-altruism/

            And yes, religion initially offered a survival advantage because it organized cooperative behaviour and reinforced existing morals. But not nowadays.

            According to - Phil Zuckerman: “If it were true that when belief in God weakens, societal well-being diminishes, then we should see abundant evidence for this. But we don't. In fact, we find just the opposite: Those societies today that are the most religious — where faith in God is strong and religious participation is high — tend to have the highest violent crime rates, while those societies in which faith and church attendance are the weakest — the most secular societies — tend to have the lowest.”

            http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...101-story.html
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              And is probably key in survival.
              Common sense seer. People who believe they will be punished are more likely to behave. Thats why as social groups we created the notion of all seeing Gods to rule over them.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                Where's the link?

                The study quoted in ‘Scientific American’ on February 9, 2016 says the opposite:

                “…new research conducted in six countries around the world suggests that a religious upbringing may actually yield children who are less altruistic.”

                http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...less-altruism/

                And yes, religion initially offered a survival advantage because it organized cooperative behaviour and reinforced existing morals. But not nowadays.

                According to - Phil Zuckerman: “If it were true that when belief in God weakens, societal well-being diminishes, then we should see abundant evidence for this. But we don't. In fact, we find just the opposite: Those societies today that are the most religious — where faith in God is strong and religious participation is high — tend to have the highest violent crime rates, while those societies in which faith and church attendance are the weakest — the most secular societies — tend to have the lowest.”

                http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...101-story.html
                Tass, first my quote was from the OP with the link, second your study is bunk - terrible methodology:

                http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/...ore-altruistic
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Tass, first my quote was from the OP with the link, second your study is bunk - terrible methodology:

                  http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/...ore-altruistic
                  You mean your favoured study says what you want to hear. But then this is not surprising given the strong Evangelical credentials of the author, Robert Woodberry.

                  OTOH the link I produced is actually supported by facts garnered from other sources including Phil Zuckerman: “If it were true that when belief in God weakens, societal well-being diminishes, then we should see abundant evidence for this. But we don't. In fact, we find just the opposite: Those societies today that are the most religious — where faith in God is strong and religious participation is high — tend to have the highest violent crime rates, while those societies in which faith and church attendance are the weakest — the most secular societies — tend to have the lowest.”

                  http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...101-story.html
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    You mean your favoured study says what you want to hear. But then this is not surprising given the strong Evangelical credentials of the author, Robert Woodberry.
                    And the author of your study is not bias? It is obvious that your study did not control for certain variables. And my first link was not study done by an Evangelical, it was published in the journal Nature.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      And the author of your study is not bias? It is obvious that your study did not control for certain variables. And my first link was not study done by an Evangelical, it was published in the journal Nature.
                      The link in your previous post was to an article by Robert Woodberry, who has strong Evangelical connections including to the Baylor (Baptist) University’s Institute for Studies of Religion, whereas my links was supported by facts garnered from other sources including Phil Zuckerman.

                      Here’s another one:

                      “Many nonreligious parents were more coherent and passionate about their ethical principles than some of the ‘religious' parents in our study,” Bengston told me. “The vast majority appeared to live goal-filled lives characterized by moral direction and sense of life having a purpose.”

                      http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...115-story.html
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        The link in your previous post was to an article by Robert Woodberry, who has strong Evangelical connections including to the Baylor (Baptist) University’s Institute for Studies of Religion, whereas my links was supported by facts garnered from other sources including Phil Zuckerman.
                        No Tass, I was speaking of the link in my opening post. That was published in Nature. And it does not change the fact that your first study has been debunked, Robert Woodberry pointed out the clear flaws - if you think he is wrong, show me where.

                        http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/...ore-altruistic
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          No Tass, I was speaking of the link in my opening post. That was published in Nature. And it does not change the fact that your first study has been debunked, Robert Woodberry pointed out the clear flaws - if you think he is wrong, show me where.

                          http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/...ore-altruistic
                          Nevertheless, despite your (typically) cherry-picked quote which reinforces your personal presuppositions, there are a host of studies and statistics which show that the societies today which are the most religious tend to have the highest violent crime rates, while those societies in which faith and church attendance are the weakest tend to have the lowest.

                          And, this is supported by the correlation of the UN/HDI figures vis-ŕ-vis list of the most secular nations as per Adherents.com

                          Plus the L.A Times link: “Many nonreligious parents were more coherent and passionate about their ethical principles than some of the ‘religious' parents in our study,” Bengston told me. “The vast majority appeared to live goal-filled lives characterized by moral direction and sense of life having a purpose.”

                          http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...115-story.html
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            Nevertheless, despite your (typically) cherry-picked quote which reinforces your personal presuppositions, there are a host of studies and statistics which show that the societies today which are the most religious tend to have the highest violent crime rates, while those societies in which faith and church attendance are the weakest tend to have the lowest.
                            Again I did not cherry pick anything. And is religion the driving factor in the studies you cite? Or is it economics or other cultural factors? I mean really Tass, do you think the population of Norway would become more violent if they all became devout Christians or devout Baha'is?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Again I did not cherry pick anything. And is religion the driving factor in the studies you cite? Or is it economics or other cultural factors? I mean really Tass, do you think the population of Norway would become more violent if they all became devout Christians or devout Baha'is?
                              The point is the claim that faith makes for a more moral society is false. If anything the reverse is true.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment

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