TVangelists

[Chaotic Void]

Should we Give money to TVangelists? Why/Why not?

I personally think we shouldn't, but I'd love to hear why some people do.

[Jnthn]

Discussions of this nature will not work at the general level. We need to talk about individual evangelists who use the television.

J

[Chaotic Void]

My Mistake...
How's Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Pat Robertson, and Joyce Meyer sound? Those are the ones I hear about the most.

[Jnthn]

I'm not too familiar with some of the big names as I don't have a Charismatic/word-faith bent to my theology, but I know of the examples you've given through a particularly pungent sewer outflow pipe called God.tv.

I wouldn't give a penny to the examples you've mentioned.

J

[Chaotic Void]

I know what you mean. I wouldn't even give these guys Canadian Tire Money.

[Soyeong]

TV evangelism can be a powerful medium to reach a large audience. Unfortunately, money often becomes the focus and the larger the audience the more money they make, so they teach things people want to hear instead of the truth. However, that doesn’t mean that all of them have stooped to that level. I have seen a few sessions with Zola Levitt (http://www.levitt.tv/), who recently passed away, but who really had a heart for Israel. I wouldn’t have minded donating to him at all.

[outcast]

Well, lets look at what the bible says. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God" how does one hear the Word of God? 1 through preaching the word at church, witnessing on the streets, reading the Word of God, and meditating on it. Last of all Television. Their are thousand of Muslims, and other people who get saved including "elderly people by watching Ministers of Christ on tv. We Christians as a whole should be glad that people are coming to the savior as a result of television preaching. Just as people get saved from being on the internet on web sites like this i'm sure, after all part of the "tweb mission statement talks about this site as a form of outreach, and i think, i could be wrong though that this site has a place where you can donate money as well. What im saying then if God uses people to get His word across to people who need it whether it be Tv, the web, by voice of mouth or reading then Praise God.

With that said What about Giving was the original question? The bible teaches that we are to give to those who teach us the Word of God like our leaders/pastors. The local church that we attend. If the church has a guest speaker then its ok to give them a love offering as well.
Now concerning Television preachers like the 700 club for example this is what i belive I would say yes it is ok to give to them if the Holy Spirit tells you to. 2nd If you dont have a church and you want to support their ministry and God is telling you to then its ok. 3rd Let s say you have a local church you attend, you should not be supporting a television minister before or above your home church:smile: :smile:

[Soyeong]

Well, lets look at what the bible says. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God" how does one hear the Word of God? 1 through preaching the word at church, witnessing on the streets, reading the Word of God, and meditating on it. Last of all Television. Their are thousand of Muslims, and other people who get saved including "elderly people by watching Ministers of Christ on tv. We Christians as a whole should be glad that people are coming to the savior as a result of television preaching. Just as people get saved from being on the internet on web sites like this i'm sure, after all part of the "tweb mission statement talks about this site as a form of outreach, and i think, i could be wrong though that this site has a place where you can donate money as well. What im saying then if God uses people to get His word across to people who need it whether it be Tv, the web, by voice of mouth or reading then Praise God.
The problem is if they get converted to a feel-good Christianity. It's not rooted in the trust and when it is exposed, it is likely that the people will deconvert. Then they will be turned off to real Christianity thinking that they tried it. They might even tell others about experiencing Christianity to be wrong. Disinformation, even if it has seemingly positive results, is not good because it creates more work for Christians trying to evangelize because they must first undue the damage that has been done.

[Crow]

Should we Give money to TVangelists? Why/Why not?

I personally think we shouldn't, but I'd love to hear why some people do.

If a TV evangalist is doing a great job of teaching, hey, why not? Same as any other endeavor that you see a Christian undertaking that does good--if you feel that it's providing a valuable service, be it charity, teaching, or whatever, and you want to support it, why not?

The problem I have with a great many TV evangelists I see is that the focus of their program appears to be "tithes and offerings." Particularly disgusting is the frequent appeal to greed, AKA "plant a seed, and God will reward you with health, wealth, a bigger and better crib, etc." I don't perceive God as so base an entity that He accepts bribes.

[furay]

Give your money to EWTN.

[outcast]

NO one should give their money to a Catholic Chanel that Prays to dead saints, and worships Mary as God!!!!, and claims that the Church is the only way to salvation, even above the Lord Jesus Christ, It was the Catholic church who compromised the Word of God as being absolute truth, and placed the church above the existence of God which paved the way for Secularisim, and liberal ideas into the USA,

[outcast]

Well i do agree that nearly all the "salvation messages" given on some tv stations are Unbiblical because they do not mention "Sin or what it is, Judgement, or hell. with exceptions to the biblical method found on the tv show "Way of the Master" which are Ministry teaches. www.livingwaters.com-"Hells best kept secret". i agree Soyeong that their are alot of "feel good messages".

but on the otherside i say this to your post God knows where each indivisual is in their life and who is watching tv sometimes people are at the end of their rope and God with His superior wisdom and knowledge nows what word to say to cause someone to be saved. Let give a example to show you what i mean: let say a girl grew up as a Lutheran and had knowledge from their upbringing of what sin is and was a striper, and they were near suicide and all they hear is John 3:16 could they be saved by that scripture alone yes of course they could because the Word of God is Living and active and is able to divide soul and spirit, with that said the Holy spirit know what they need to hear, and sometimes its the Grace of God which saves people like Jesus talking with Nicodemus about being born again.

[Soyeong]

but on the otherside i say this to your post God knows where each indivisual is in their life and who is watching tv sometimes people are at the end of their rope and God with His superior wisdom and knowledge nows what word to say to cause someone to be saved. Let give a example to show you what i mean: let say a girl grew up as a Lutheran and had knowledge from their upbringing of what sin is and was a striper, and they were near suicide and all they hear is John 3:16could they be saved by that scripture alone yes of course they could because the Word of God is Living and active and is able to divide soul and spirit, with that said the Holy spirit know what they need to hear, and sometimes its the Grace of God which saves people like Jesus talking with Nicodemus about being born again.

There is no doubt that these TVangelists have the potential to do good and can make a big difference in that girl’s life, but is it worth the cost? If for every person who is helped, there are other people who are being set up to be knocked down, then perhaps it is doing more harm than good. So when considering the question of whether we should give money to TVangelists, we should first see which ones are doing the most good. Then we should decide if investing money in something else completely would do more good. After weighing everything and praying about it, you should then give money to the one(s) that you think are the best or have the best potential.

[outcast]

Right on.

[Lazarus]

NO one should give their money to a Catholic Chanel that Prays to dead saints, and worships Mary as God!!!!, and claims that the Church is the only way to salvation, even above the Lord Jesus Christ, It was the Catholic church who compromised the Word of God as being absolute truth, and placed the church above the existence of God which paved the way for Secularisim, and liberal ideas into the USA,

After reading this rant I sat down and wrote a check to EWTN. It's obvious they have a lot of work to do to refute the ignorance and prejudice that many people have about the Catholic Church.
:eek:

[Chaotic Void]

Give your money to EWTN.

Questions:

1) Who are they?
2) What is their 'Purpose'?
3) Why should one spend a fragment of their paycheck, that could easily go towards food or something for family time, on EWTN?
4)What makes EWTN any different from above posted TVangelists [Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland] ?
5) What is their Doctrine?

[furay]

After reading this rant I sat down and wrote a check to EWTN. It's obvious they have a lot of work to do to refute the ignorance and prejudice that many people have about the Catholic Church.
:eek:
Thank you.

[furay]

Questions:

1) Who are they?
2) What is their 'Purpose'?
3) Why should one spend a fragment of their paycheck, that could easily go towards food or something for family time, on EWTN?
4)What makes EWTN any different from above posted TVangelists [Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland] ?
5) What is their Doctrine?
1) They are the largest religious media network in the world. They bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to 125 million homes in 140 countries.
2) Their purpose is to bring the Eternal Word to all peoples. They seek to help people grow in their love and understanding of God and His infinite divine mercy.
3) You just might save someone's soul, by supporting this ministry. Isn't that worth more than a family meal or daytrip?
4) They are faithful to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church which was established by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to guide souls unto Him.
5) Their Doctrine is that of the undivided, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. No more. No less.

God bless you.

[Chaotic Void]

1) They are the largest religious media network in the world. They bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to 125 million homes in 140 countries.
2) Their purpose is to bring the Eternal Word to all peoples. They seek to help people grow in their love and understanding of God and His infinite divine mercy.
3) You just might save someone's soul, by supporting this ministry. Isn't that worth more than a family meal or daytrip?
4) They are faithful to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church which was established by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to guide souls unto Him.
5) Their Doctrine is that of the undivided, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. No more. No less.

God bless you.
Still dubious, so I'll play 'Devils Advocate' and see what people have to say.

1) 125 million homes each country, or 125 million total? [If it is the latter, then I've heard of larger networks.]
2) other's make similar claims[ie, spread the Good News/Gospel/the Word to all]. What makes one give to the EWTN over other ministries/TV networks?
3) If the money is just going to end up in some guy's pocketbook [not saying it would, but you never know], then wouldn't it have been better spent on family? Wouldn't the money be useless if the only people who watch the network are all believers?
4) What makes the Catholic Church any better than, say, a Baptist or Anglican church? [I always hear arguments as to which 'denomiation' is better, but they pretty much end in being smear campaigns].
5) Televangelists/Christian TV Networks have been known to twist scripture to lure people into donating them [Prosperity Gospel anyone?]. What is to say they have not done the same thing?

[furay]

Still dubious, so I'll play 'Devils Advocate' and see what people have to say.
Kay.

1) 125 million homes each country, or 125 million total? [If it is the latter, then I've heard of larger networks.
Hmm, not sure. Does it really matter?

2) other's make similar claims[ie, spread the Good News/Gospel/the Word to all]. What makes one give to the EWTN over other ministries/TV networks?
They preach the fullness of the Gospel.

3) If the money is just going to end up in some guy's pocketbook [not saying it would, but you never know], then wouldn't it have been better spent on family?
In that case, yeah it would be better for you to hold onto the money and use it for your family.

Wouldn't the money be useless if the only people who watch the network are all believers?
No, because EWTN provides valuable services to believers as well. For example, many shut-ins and the ill depend on EWTN to watch the daily mass. Many others who live in impoverished countries and cannot get to church, can participate spiritually by watching the Mass on tv. Other believers benefit by learning more about the teachings of the Faith and how to defend it.

4) What makes the Catholic Church any better than, say, a Baptist or Anglican church? [I always hear arguments as to which 'denomiation' is better, but they pretty much end in being smear campaigns].
The Catholic Church historically was founded by Jesus Christ, whereas the Baptists and Anglicans both broke off from the Catholic Church. Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church and that the Holy Spirit would lead her to all truth, so we know that the Catholic Church has not and cannot go astray.

5) Televangelists/Christian TV Networks have been known to twist scripture to lure people into donating them [Prosperity Gospel anyone?]. What is to say they have not done the same thing?
:lol: There is nothing like the "prosperity gospel" in Catholicism. We teach a way of life where suffering and poverty are prized, not BMWs and inground pools.

[Chaotic Void]

Kay.


Hmm, not sure. Does it really matter?


They preach the fullness of the Gospel.


In that case, yeah it would be better for you to hold onto the money and use it for your family.


No, because EWTN provides valuable services to believers as well. For example, many shut-ins and the ill depend on EWTN to watch the daily mass. Many others who live in impoverished countries and cannot get to church, can participate spiritually by watching the Mass on tv. Other believers benefit by learning more about the teachings of the Faith and how to defend it.


The Catholic Church historically was founded by Jesus Christ, whereas the Baptists and Anglicans both broke off from the Catholic Church. Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church and that the Holy Spirit would lead her to all truth, so we know that the Catholic Church has not and cannot go astray.


:lol: There is nothing like the "prosperity gospel" in Catholicism. We teach a way of life where suffering and poverty are prized, not BMWs and inground pools.

No, it doesn't really matter, unless we're talking statistically who is a larger network.

"Fullness of the Gospel"?

Jesus himself said [something like this] that the people who really needed help are the Non-Believers, not the Believers.

If my research is correct, the Catholic church has gone astray before in history; Priests took bribes to let people into the Clergy, Indulgences, and even married when they weren't supposed to [why they even forbid marriage, I do not know. It says in 1 timothy that Church leaders are supposed to be married].
Didn't Christianity break off from Judaism? And wasn't the Catholic Church founded by Peter?

[Tlalynet]

Better EWTN than Binny Hinn any day, No matter your denomination.
I still belive in the person to person teaching medium well over any other form, Even if you convert people in mass teaching its moot if they dont learn what it all means. Camps and Churches for me.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I saw the name "Benny Hinn" and nearly had a brain hemorrhage. May God not get too over zealous when he judges his lying, deceptive soul.

[TyRockwell]

I'm not too familiar with some of the big names as I don't have a Charismatic/word-faith bent to my theology, but I know of the examples you've given through a particularly pungent sewer outflow pipe called God.tv.

I wouldn't give a penny to the examples you've mentioned.

J

Then don't, but while you remain ignoring of what you keep outside of your narrow scope of view, you should not criticize what you don't understand about ministries which are doing an immeasurably great good, which obviously you wouldn't have any way to know about.

Ask yourself this question: Would Jesus have his own television ministry, and if so, would it look like liturgy?

[TyRockwell]

Well, lets look at what the bible says. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God" how does one hear the Word of God? 1 through preaching the word at church, witnessing on the streets, reading the Word of God, and meditating on it. Last of all Television. Their are thousand of Muslims, and other people who get saved including "elderly people by watching Ministers of Christ on tv. We Christians as a whole should be glad that people are coming to the savior as a result of television preaching. Just as people get saved from being on the internet on web sites like this i'm sure, after all part of the "tweb mission statement talks about this site as a form of outreach, and i think, i could be wrong though that this site has a place where you can donate money as well. What im saying then if God uses people to get His word across to people who need it whether it be Tv, the web, by voice of mouth or reading then Praise God.

With that said What about Giving was the original question? The bible teaches that we are to give to those who teach us the Word of God like our leaders/pastors. The local church that we attend. If the church has a guest speaker then its ok to give them a love offering as well.
Now concerning Television preachers like the 700 club for example this is what i belive I would say yes it is ok to give to them if the Holy Spirit tells you to. 2nd If you dont have a church and you want to support their ministry and God is telling you to then its ok. 3rd Let s say you have a local church you attend, you should not be supporting a television minister before or above your home church:smile: :smile:

You are right.

[TyRockwell]

The problem is if they get converted to a feel-good Christianity. It's not rooted in the trust and when it is exposed, it is likely that the people will deconvert. Then they will be turned off to real Christianity thinking that they tried it. They might even tell others about experiencing Christianity to be wrong. Disinformation, even if it has seemingly positive results, is not good because it creates more work for Christians trying to evangelize because they must first undue the damage that has been done.

The most distinguishing word in the statement above is the word "if" in the first sentence. It is not a fair representation to set up a negative, as if it were the usual, and imply that is what is happening in practice.

[ddfattig]

Frank graham and ravi zakarias and j vernon mcgee I have never heard anything unbiblical from. But I would give where it is used more efficently something like gfa or save darfur or vom.

Something I wrote for the whittenburg door about 10 years ago would apply.
WARNING!! THE FOLLOWING IS SATIRE. If humor impaired do not read.

The televangelist's quick reference guide to problem passages

Isa 5:8 "Woe unto them that join house to house, [that] lay field to field, till [there be] no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!"

Don’t join the little houses together. Tear them down so you have room for one really big one.


Le 25:13 "In the year of this jubile ye shall return every man unto his possession."

If one of your followers comes to you destitute and asks for help, tell him to just go back to their own house.


Ne 5:11 "Restore, I pray you, to them, even this day, their lands, their vineyards, their oliveyards, and their houses, also the hundredth [part] of the money, and of the corn, the wine, and the oil, that ye exact of them."

Applies only to the IRS.


Mr 11:15 "And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;"

Note that they were selling animals, not jewelry or tapes or memberships at Christian theme parks. No telivangelist that I know of has ever hawked livestock on TV. And "money changers"? No need for them here. We accept all forms of currency including most major credit cards.


Acts 2:44-45 "And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need."

Communist. This verse is best ignored. If you must deal with it you can point out that these were the same people Paul sent relief money to later. If they had kept their possessions or else centralized them by giving to a leading evangelist perhaps they would not have needed charity.


1Corth 1:26-29 "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence."

Of course, this does not apply to sports stars, media types, and people who have made lots of money. If any of them become Christians God immediately chooses them to be leaders in the ministry.


James 5:1-3 "Go to now, [ye] rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon [you]. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days."

This verse is better left alone because it is so hard to understand. If you must deal with it, it applies only to those who horde money that should have been sent to us.


Mr 6:8 "And commanded them that they should take nothing for [their] journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in [their] purse:"

Televangelists are not to carry lots of material things when they travel, not even cash. A really good line of credit can get you anything you need once you get there without all that excess airport baggage handling.


Ac 4:37 "Having land, sold [it], and brought the money, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet."

NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!


Ac 4:32 "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common."

Just skip over this and go back to verse 37.


1Ti 6:10 "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

You can have lots of money, you can make lots of money, you can spend lots of money on nice things for yourself. You just have to avoid loving it while you're doing it.

[ddfattig]

Frank graham and ravi zakarias and j vernon mcgee I have never heard anything unbiblical from. But I would give where it is used more efficently something like gfa or save darfur or vom.

Something I wrote for the whittenburg door about 10 years ago would apply.
WARNING!! THE FOLLOWING IS SATIRE. If humor impaired do not read.

The televangelist's quick reference guide to problem passages

Isa 5:8 "Woe unto them that join house to house, [that] lay field to field, till [there be] no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!"

Don’t join the little houses together. Tear them down so you have room for one really big one.


Le 25:13 "In the year of this jubile ye shall return every man unto his possession."

If one of your followers comes to you destitute and asks for help, tell him to just go back to their own house.


Ne 5:11 "Restore, I pray you, to them, even this day, their lands, their vineyards, their oliveyards, and their houses, also the hundredth [part] of the money, and of the corn, the wine, and the oil, that ye exact of them."

Applies only to the IRS.


Mr 11:15 "And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;"

Note that they were selling animals, not jewelry or tapes or memberships at Christian theme parks. No telivangelist that I know of has ever hawked livestock on TV. And "money changers"? No need for them here. We accept all forms of currency including most major credit cards.


Acts 2:44-45 "And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need."

Communist. This verse is best ignored. If you must deal with it you can point out that these were the same people Paul sent relief money to later. If they had kept their possessions or else centralized them by giving to a leading evangelist perhaps they would not have needed charity.


1Corth 1:26-29 "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence."

Of course, this does not apply to sports stars, media types, and people who have made lots of money. If any of them become Christians God immediately chooses them to be leaders in the ministry.


James 5:1-3 "Go to now, [ye] rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon [you]. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days."

This verse is better left alone because it is so hard to understand. If you must deal with it, it applies only to those who horde money that should have been sent to us.


Mr 6:8 "And commanded them that they should take nothing for [their] journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in [their] purse:"

Televangelists are not to carry lots of material things when they travel, not even cash. A really good line of credit can get you anything you need once you get there without all that excess airport baggage handling.


Ac 4:37 "Having land, sold [it], and brought the money, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet."

NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!


Ac 4:32 "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common."

Just skip over this and go back to verse 37.


1Ti 6:10 "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

You can have lots of money, you can make lots of money, you can spend lots of money on nice things for yourself. You just have to avoid loving it while you're doing it.

[TyRockwell]

Did someone say, "You can say that again!"?

[ddfattig]

or

WARNING!! THE FOLLOWING IS SATIRE about bob larson, a tellivangelist who specalizes in spiritual warfare. If humor impaired do not read.


My dear tasty Wormwood,
Though 60 years have passed since I last had the delicious pleasure of your company, the object of your inattention having passed on to that glory that is terror for us, it is once again my responsibility to educate you on recent developments of our undersecretary of tactical theory. 60 years is 10 short of what the enemy has allotted the vermin on which we feed, but it is but a moment to those who have eternal perspective, and I am feeling a bit peckish. Let's hope your new case is more successful than your last.

We decided not to risk someone we already had with one foot in hell and the other foot on a banana peel because your last case was lost to us. Your new case is already on the side of the enemy. All is not lost because he is a blind leader of blind sheep and much can be done to diminish his effectiveness and that of his flock. We have laid the foundation of sand. It is your job to see that only stubble is built on it.

He is a televangelist named Bob. The sand foundation we have laid is pride, specifically we have convinced him that he has a special line of communication to the enemy. That he is somehow "anointed." That way we can avoid him getting much of anything useful from the war manuel they call the "Bible" because he will be concentrating on feelings and subjective experience.

The undersecretary of tactical theory has come up with a devilishly simple plan. By using a handful of verses from the war manuel, we can get them to ignore the rest. We coined the term "spiritual warfare" (mui macho, I think) to distract them from spiritual discipline, which is far more dangerous. We use the words of the enemy like in Mark 9. Let him remember only that it was in Jesus name that your comrades were cast out, lest he get the point of the story. That way he will think our adversary can be forced to do something by a magical incantation thus killing two birds with one stone. He really hates magic. Humans like to feel powerful and that they know something others don't. Use that. Convince him that where it says "He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives," that it is referring to demonic possession or oppression or something. That way his followers, and they are legion, will concentrate on casting out demons while the real demons can work on their pride at knowing how to cast out demons that are not there. That is, after all, the only way we can hold captive those that belong to Jesus. By blinding them to the Living Word and holding them captive in sin. A side benefit is that while they are shouting at demons (what makes them think we are hard of hearing?) they will be ignoring the real souls Jesus was talking about. Those souls that we will soon be feasting on, captive in sin, ignorant of His love for them because nobody told them, and His servants languishing in a hundred thousand prisons scattered across this pathetic little globe He loves so much.
Your uncle,
Screwtape

Wormwood,
I am surprised at your aversion to use the Bible. I can understand your hesitation considering your last debacle but we have a long and ignoble past using it. Our father below used it when he was tempting Jesus. We are researching why it didn't work. We have had so much success with it elsewhere. From Gnostics to Jim Jones and The People's Temple or Jehovah's Witlessness; there are millions of souls to feed on.
Your ravenous uncle,
Screwtape

Wormwood,
Very glad to see you took my excellent advice about using the Bible. Paul's letter to Ephesus was a good choice. I liked the way you used "we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places," to distract him to from the real point of the text, spiritual discipline. You have him concentrating on casting out demons rather than teaching about faith, truth, living right and preaching the bad news. (Good for them makes it very bad for us.) Nice work on the "sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." I can't believe he actually stood up in his church, swinging his Bible, trying to give demons paper cuts.
Affectionately yours,
Screwtape

My favorite nephew Wormwood,
Excellent misdirection on the 1 kings text. Jezebel spirit! If I had a body like he sometimes says I do, I would be rolling on the floor laughing. Good idea having him charge $40 to learn more about the Jezebel spirit. It will divert funds that could be used for the poor or worse yet, evangelism. Could I make a suggestion? Convince him to offer a course, call it,,, um, "personal coaching." Make it cost $199 a week.
Your favorite uncle,
Screwtape

Wormwood,
I am surprised at your enthusiasm over the impoverishing of a few of his flock. The enemy loves the poor all the more fiercely, and that is very dangerous to us. Remember the words of our enemy, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." "Better rich than poor," our father below is always telling me. The rich think they have all they need by their own hand. They don't realize their spiritual poverty or that the enemy actually owns everything. They are mere stewards and will soon be audited.

Did you tell them using the Bible was my idea?
Screwtape

My dear Wormwood,
Good work on Matthew 16: 22. You are starting to show promise. Convincing him that because Peter said "God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you" and Jesus responded "Get behind me, Satan" means that Peter was demon oppressed, could not have been done without the groundwork others have laid. So don't get cocky. He must have missed the rest of the verse: "for you are not on the side of God, but of men." What irony that just a moment before in the conversation Peter was not demon oppressed where he gets the proof text for binding demons from "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Keep up the tunnel vision he has on the Bible. If he ever looks at context you could lose what we have gained. Satan forbid that he ever takes a whole biblical view.

With much affection,
Screwtape

My dear nephew Wormwood,
So glad to see you're taking my advice so readily. Even down to the price I suggested. Did you tell our Father below that it was my idea? Now you have Bob hooked on greed. He will be much more useless to the enemy if you turn greed for money into greed for power and fame. He will be doing more for us than any of the satanists he talks about. He is already blaming things on us that we had nothing to do with. Casting out the spirit of lust when it is really in the heart of the christian that the problem lies. They are so myopic that they don't see what James said at the beginning of his book. "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire."

Really love how you had him hire a ghost writer for his book and then take the credit (and money) for her work. Work on his wanting fame and power. Teach him to think that lies are just stretching the truth and that it is worth it because his ministry will prosper and he will be able to help more people. It worked well on Benny Hinn and hundreds like him. We don't yet know why it didn't work on Billy Graham, but think it had to do with his abysmal lack of self love.
Your dear uncle,
Screwtape

Wormwood,
I am very disappointed that you didn't tell Our Father Below that all of your brilliant work was based on my ideas. If you are planing to take credit for it, my advice is don't. Let me remind you you that my advice has been spot on for this case.
With regret,
Screwtape

Wormwood proposes a toast,

My dear shades demons and fallen angels, we regret the unfortunate, yet tasty, fall of my dear uncle Screwtape. His bungling advice was overcome by my brilliant handling of the case which has led to this scrumptious feast laid before us now. We feast not on the souls of great sinners, nor on the abundance of the bland billions of those who have rejected the One we hate. We feast on the deception of millions, though lost to the enemy, have diminished capacity to conduct warfare against us because of their lust to be someone powerful. My pioneering use of pride and the lust for knowing something everybody else does not, led my client to desire power rather than discipline. That led to lust for adoration. Adoration requires lying. It brought him wealth which he has use to lead thousands to the same lusts. Many of them have gone down that same road of self deception. Lying first to themselves till they almost believe it. Then to others so it propagates like the Spanish Influenza. What delicious irony that by conducting "spiritual warfare" they are hindered in fighting us. Indeed, not a few have helped our cause more than many we have firmly on our side. I give you Spiritual Warfare.

[TyRockwell]

:yawn:

So, you insist somehow that actual empowerment by the Holy Spirit is not as good a condition as the indwelling Holy Spirit.

You bought that bridge in Brooklyn, too. Didn't you?
You mock the anointing.
And you are equating the work of the Holy Spirit to the work of the Satanic. It is your goose who is cooked.

[ddfattig]

:yawn:

So, you insist somehow that actual empowerment by the Holy Spirit is not as good a condition as the indwelling Holy Spirit.

You bought that bridge in Brooklyn, too. Didn't you?
You mock the anointing.
And you are equating the work of the Holy Spirit to the work of the Satanic. It is your goose who is cooked.
I do believe The Holy Spirit indwells every true Christian. It is the animating force in their lives. I also believe that boob larson and others like him are hurting more than helping the propagation of the Gospel. Though Catholics are not known for biblical accuracy they do less harm than bob larson. Now that I have offended nearly everyone here I will shut up.

[Alan3838]

My Mistake...
How's Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Pat Robertson, and Joyce Meyer sound? Those are the ones I hear about the most.

I wouldn't give to these people based on Ga 6:6. We are to communicate (share) with those that bring us the word but based on their teaching; It's like taking a college course from a pre-school teacher.
Giving in and of itself is an attitude of worship and I support it but not the way these people ask for it.
Eze 34:2 sums it up.

[TyRockwell]

Originally posted by Chaotic Void (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=1979343#post1979343)
My Mistake...
How's Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Pat Robertson, and Joyce Meyer sound? Those are the ones I hear about the most.

I wouldn't give to these people based on Ga 6:6. We are to communicate (share) with those that bring us the word but based on their teaching; It's like taking a college course from a pre-school teacher.
Giving in and of itself is an attitude of worship and I support it but not the way these people ask for it.
Eze 34:2 sums it up.

There is at least one person in the list above that is an in depth teacher of the word of God. I'm not going to say which one, because you not knowing proves you don't know what you are talking about. You have not looked into the truth, but you are parroting a stereotype and a list handed to you. Give where you are fed, but don't accuse true teachers of the word of not feeding the sheep.

[Alan3838]

Originally posted by Chaotic Void (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=1979343#post1979343)
My Mistake...
How's Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Pat Robertson, and Joyce Meyer sound? Those are the ones I hear about the most.



There is at least one person in the list above that is an in depth teacher of the word of God. I'm not going to say which one, because you not knowing proves you don't know what you are talking about. You have not looked into the truth, but you are parroting a stereotype and a list handed to you. Give where you are fed, but don't accuse true teachers of the word of not feeding the sheep.

Are you are referring to Benny Hinn Ty?

[TyRockwell]

Originally posted by TyRockwell (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=2415252#post2415252)
Originally posted by Chaotic Void (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=1979343#post1979343)
My Mistake...
How's Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Pat Robertson, and Joyce Meyer sound? Those are the ones I hear about the most.

There is at least one person in the list above that is an in depth teacher of the word of God. I'm not going to say which one, because you not knowing proves you don't know what you are talking about. You have not looked into the truth, but you are parroting a stereotype and a list handed to you. Give where you are fed, but don't accuse true teachers of the word of not feeding the sheep.


Are you are referring to Benny Hinn Ty?
You need to find out who for yourself.

[Alan3838]

There is at least one person in the list above that is an in depth teacher of the word of God. I'm not going to say which one, because you not knowing proves you don't know what you are talking about. You have not looked into the truth, but you are parroting a stereotype and a list handed to you. Give where you are fed, but don't accuse true teachers of the word of not feeding the sheep.



You need to find out who for yourself.[/QUOTE]

IMO I did, I've read enough of your post to know that you admire Mr. Hinn.

[TyRockwell]

There is at least one person in the list above that is an in depth teacher of the word of God. I'm not going to say which one, because you not knowing proves you don't know what you are talking about. You have not looked into the truth, but you are parroting a stereotype and a list handed to you. Give where you are fed, but don't accuse true teachers of the word of not feeding the sheep.



You need to find out who for yourself.

IMO I did, I've read enough of your post to know that you admire Mr. Hinn.[/quote]

You don't know that, and I said no such thing, and you have not bothered to investigate the people on the list.

[Alan3838]

IMO I did, I've read enough of your post to know that you admire Mr. Hinn.

You don't know that, and I said no such thing, and you have not bothered to investigate the people on the list.[/QUOTE]

Ty,I'm not a mind reader.I'm not going to guess at who you are talking about. If you don't want to mention them by name then that's fine.
My faith is in Jesus not the messenger. As far as investigating anyone I have no idea what your talking about.
I'm not going to debate with anyone that doesn't have enough intestinal fortitude to say who it is their talking about.

[TyRockwell]

You don't know that, and I said no such thing, and you have not bothered to investigate the people on the list.

Ty,I'm not a mind reader.I'm not going to guess at who you are talking about. If you don't want to mention them by name then that's fine.
My faith is in Jesus not the messenger. As far as investigating anyone I have no idea what your talking about.
I'm not going to debate with anyone that doesn't have enough intestinal fortitude to say who it is their talking about.
You are another disgusting wimp. You can't or won't think for yourself. That's lazy. I'm not going to do your work for you.

If you were paying attention, the point is for you and others to know what they are talking about rather than stereotyping people on a list handed to them. Did you read the list?
They mix in good with bad. That is low life. Don't do that.

I don't want to give the name of the one who is a good teacher. If I did, you'd have weirdos coming out of everywhere with accusations.

It is more fair to say: you have a computer with internet access, and probably a TV. So, see for yourself. Don't take the path of believing critics and accusers. They criticized and accused Jesus. Check on the people on the list themselves, don't go to so-called defenders of Christianity sites. They don't know.

[Alan3838]

Like I said Ty, I'm not going to debate with someone that doesn't have the guts to say who your talking about.

[Chaotic Void]

There is at least one person in the list above that is an in depth teacher of the word of God. I'm not going to say which one, because you not knowing proves you don't know what you are talking about. You have not looked into the truth, but you are parroting a stereotype and a list handed to you. Give where you are fed, but don't accuse true teachers of the word of not feeding the sheep.

Those Televangelists I listed previously are feeding the sheep. However, they are not feeding them healthy, wholesome, edifying grains. They are feeding them Poison. Poison that is slowly killing the portion of their [alleged] Master's flock that follow them.

Here's my beef with each of them:

-Hinn has failed to keep his promise to medically verify the miracles he put on the air, some of which never even happened. He also teaches the Prosperity Gospel, which is false. One of his most Draconian teachings is that "If you didn't get healed, it's your fault because you didn't have enough faith."

-Copeland teaches Prosperity Gospel and the "Word of Faith" doctrine. Both of which are false. He also raised a hefty sum of money for Republican Candidate Mike Huckabee, who also believes in the prosperity gospel, and Huckabee also said that if he became president, he would pardon the six televangelists from the Senate's financial inquiry.

-I haven't heard much about Robertson because I think he retired or something. But I DO know that he did a false prophecy a while back... something about Nukes. I also know that he's a believer in the "Kingdom Now" heresy.

-Joyce Meyer... Another Teacher of the Dangerous Word-Faith Theology and the Prosperity Gospel.

If you have any proof that what they preach isn't poison... then lay it on the table, Ty.

I'm waiting...

[Alan3838]

Robertson still calls people out through the T.V. by some illness they have. e.g. "I see a brain tumor being healed or a growth".

[ddfattig]

the real miracles r happening in 3rd world countries where persecution breeds faith.

[TyRockwell]

Those Televangelists I listed previously are feeding the sheep. However, they are not feeding them healthy, wholesome, edifying grains. They are feeding them Poison. Poison that is slowly killing the portion of their [alleged] Master's flock that follow them.

Here's my beef with each of them:

-Hinn has failed to keep his promise to medically verify the miracles he put on the air, some of which never even happened. He also teaches the Prosperity Gospel, which is false. One of his most Draconian teachings is that "If you didn't get healed, it's your fault because you didn't have enough faith."

-Copeland teaches Prosperity Gospel and the "Word of Faith" doctrine. Both of which are false. He also raised a hefty sum of money for Republican Candidate Mike Huckabee, who also believes in the prosperity gospel, and Huckabee also said that if he became president, he would pardon the six televangelists from the Senate's financial inquiry.

-I haven't heard much about Robertson because I think he retired or something. But I DO know that he did a false prophecy a while back... something about Nukes. I also know that he's a believer in the "Kingdom Now" heresy.

-Joyce Meyer... Another Teacher of the Dangerous Word-Faith Theology and the Prosperity Gospel.

If you have any proof that what they preach isn't poison... then lay it on the table, Ty.

I'm waiting...

You are [a] smoking dope. The evangelists who were 'investigated' by Charles Grassley's committee have all been proved honest, with all their paperwork and IRS filings (The IRS already audits 501c3 nonprofit organizations regularly).

Your problem is with what you 'think' about what you characterize as 'the prosperity gospel.' You don't know the word of God. You think the gospel is only about forgiveness of sins and going to heaven when you die through Jesus' death on the cross for our sins.

The blessing of the Lord is not a part of salvation. Salvation is a part of the blessing of the Lord.

"The blessing of the Lord makes rich, and adds no sorrow with it." Proverbs 10:22
Take up your complaint with the Writer of the Bible. You are a bad Christian and a chaotic void, and you know it, according to your profile.

[TyRockwell]

Robertson still calls people out through the T.V. by some illness they have. e.g. "I see a brain tumor being healed or a growth".
And people report back that it truly happened, and they have the before and after medical documentation. Have you been paying attention?

[TyRockwell]

the real miracles r happening in 3rd world countries where persecution breeds faith.

Miracles are happening all over the world except in the lives of so-called believers who have been taught not to believe it. :thumb:

[Chaotic Void]

You are [a] smoking dope. The evangelists who were 'investigated' by Charles Grassley's committee have all been proved honest, with all their paperwork and IRS filings (The IRS already audits 501c3 nonprofit organizations regularly).

I must admit I haven't been up to date on the outcome of that investigation. Ah well...

Still, I've heard that Copeland violated his Tax Exempt status by raising money for Huckabee.
And that's not my entire beef with Copeland, I've heard that he's said some very disturbing things...

Your problem is with what you 'think' about what you characterize as 'the prosperity gospel.' You don't know the word of God. You think the gospel is only about forgiveness of sins and going to heaven when you die through Jesus' death on the cross for our sins.
The blessing of the Lord is not a part of salvation. Salvation is a part of the blessing of the Lord.

"The blessing of the Lord makes rich, and adds no sorrow with it." Proverbs 10:22

I have no problem with people being blessed with money or health or whatever [or having money/health/whatever]. My problem lies in the "Give your money to me, and God will give tenfold back" notion that these televangelists have. Instead of helping people flip the bird to their sinful natures, they're condoning people's greed, and even exploiting it.

And on a side note... would these televangelists be willing to "Sell all they have, give the money to the poor and Follow Jesus"?:hrm:


Take up your complaint with the Writer of the Bible. You are a bad Christian and a chaotic void, and you know it, according to your profile.
I have "bad" on my profile as more of a joke than anything. And what does my handle have to do with any of this?

[TyRockwell]

I must admit I haven't been up to date on the outcome of that investigation. Ah well...

Still, I've heard that Copeland violated his Tax Exempt status by raising money for Huckabee.
And that's not my entire beef with Copeland, I've heard that he's said some very disturbing things...
You must not believe everything you hear. Hear what the source is saying, and not a snippet with commentary.


I have no problem with people being blessed with money or health or whatever [or having money/health/whatever]. My problem lies in the "Give your money to me, and God will give tenfold back" notion that these televangelists have.
You've just described a caricature, a stereotype. When people make the kind of broad-brush statement you just made, they lump in the innocent unfairly. Few would say "give to me, and God will give you ten-fold back."
But if you give to God, because you love God and see Him using certain ministries to advance His purposes, then you should not be made to feel like you have been duped into something foolish.

Instead of helping people flip the bird to their sinful natures, they're condoning people's greed, and even exploiting it. Christians should never 'flip the bird' under any circumstances.

You are speaking one of those 'when did you stop beating your wife' cliches. You criticize people who do give to God, unselfishly, saying they are greedy and selfish. You don't know the hearts of people you do not know.

And on a side note... would these televangelists be willing to "Sell all they have, give the money to the poor and Follow Jesus"?:hrm:

Some already have, but they don't brag.

And what does television have to do with it? Nothing.