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Ancient history suggests that atheism is as natural to humans as religion

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  • Ancient history suggests that atheism is as natural to humans as religion

    Source: http://phys.org/news/2016-02-disbelieve-ancient-history-atheism-natural.html



    People in the ancient world did not always believe in the gods, a new study suggests – casting doubt on the idea that religious belief is a "default setting" for humans.

    Despite being written out of large parts of history, atheists thrived in the polytheistic societies of the ancient world – raising considerable doubts about whether humans really are "wired" for religion – a new study suggests.

    The claim is the central proposition of a new book by Tim Whitmarsh, Professor of Greek Culture and a Fellow of St John's College, University of Cambridge. In it, he suggests that atheism – which is typically seen as a modern phenomenon – was not just common in ancient Greece and pre-Christian Rome, but probably flourished more in those societies than in most civilisations since.

    As a result, the study challenges two assumptions that prop up current debates between atheists and believers: Firstly, the idea that atheism is a modern point of view, and second, the idea of "religious universalism" – that humans are naturally predisposed, or "wired", to believe in gods.
    The book, titled Battling The Gods, is being launched in Cambridge on Tuesday (February 16).

    "We tend to see atheism as an idea that has only recently emerged in secular Western societies," Whitmarsh said. "The rhetoric used to describe it is hyper-modern. In fact, early societies were far more capable than many since of containing atheism within the spectrum of what they considered normal."

    "Rather than making judgements based on scientific reason, these early atheists were making what seem to be universal objections about the paradoxical nature of religion – the fact that it asks you to accept things that aren't intuitively there in your world. The fact that this was happening thousands of years ago suggests that forms of disbelief can exist in all cultures, and probably always have."

    The book argues that disbelief is actually "as old as the hills". Early examples, such as the atheistic writings of Xenophanes of Colophon (c.570-475 BCE) are contemporary with Second Temple-era Judaism, and significantly predate Christianity and Islam. Even Plato, writing in the 4th Century BCE, said that contemporary non-believers were "not the first to have had this view about the gods."

    © Copyright Original Source



    Read more: http://phys.org/news/2016-02-disbeli...m-natural.html


    Thoughts?
    Blog: Atheism and the City

    If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.

  • #2
    This probably belongs in apologetics, not civics.
    I'm not here anymore.

    Comment


    • #3
      Since I never believed in "Religion as a default setting," This does not disturb me at all.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #4
        "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

        "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

        Comment


        • #5
          Whitmarsh himself is an atheist and a secular humanist, so while ultimately it comes down to the arguments for his case, it's important to understand where he's approaching the subject from. It seems like a couple of his main points is that arguments for atheism are not new (ALL of them have been repeated before), and that atheism itself is not a modern invention.

          What I find peculiar is that, as far back as I remember looking into the subject, historians (of no particular religious or non-religious persuasion) have repeated over and over again that the sort of atheism that existed in the ancient world (and specifically the ancient Greek and Roman world) was not at all the sort of atheism we imagine today. I don't know how many times I've heard that the Psalm "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" did not apply to actual atheist atheists, because the concept of atheism that we think of today did not exist in that period. Or that when the Romans accused Christians of "atheism" they obviously didn't really mean the utter and complete lack of belief in any gods. Or that Epicureans, though they sometimes sounded like atheists, were not really atheists as we know it. Their culture wouldn't allow for it. So to have a new work come out and say, "no, that's not at all correct" is interesting.


          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
          Since I never believed in "Religion as a default setting," This does not disturb me at all.

          That leads to another point I find interesting. I remember when the theory initially popped up that religious belief was based on some sort of default wiring, it was used by some atheists as an argument against Christianity. Basically the argument boiled down to the idea that faith wasn't something freely chosen, it was evolved into our psyche (or something of that nature). Apologists who went along with philosophers like Plantinga seemed okay with this, because of his view that belief in God is properly basic. The idea sort of meshed with the philosophy. Now it's sort of like, whoa whoa whoa, maybe we have to rethink this a bit...

          Either way, I'm interested in what he has to say to make his case, and what other historians and social science scholars think about it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            Whitmarsh himself is an atheist and a secular humanist, so while ultimately it comes down to the arguments for his case, it's important to understand where he's approaching the subject from. It seems like a couple of his main points is that arguments for atheism are not new (ALL of them have been repeated before), and that atheism itself is not a modern invention.

            What I find peculiar is that, as far back as I remember looking into the subject, historians (of no particular religious or non-religious persuasion) have repeated over and over again that the sort of atheism that existed in the ancient world (and specifically the ancient Greek and Roman world) was not at all the sort of atheism we imagine today. I don't know how many times I've heard that the Psalm "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" did not apply to actual atheist atheists, because the concept of atheism that we think of today did not exist in that period. Or that when the Romans accused Christians of "atheism" they obviously didn't really mean the utter and complete lack of belief in any gods. Or that Epicureans, though they sometimes sounded like atheists, were not really atheists as we know it. Their culture wouldn't allow for it. So to have a new work come out and say, "no, that's not at all correct" is interesting.


            That leads to another point I find interesting. I remember when the theory initially popped up that religious belief was based on some sort of default wiring, it was used by some atheists as an argument against Christianity. Basically the argument boiled down to the idea that faith wasn't something freely chosen, it was evolved into our psyche (or something of that nature). Apologists who went along with philosophers like Plantinga seemed okay with this, because of his view that belief in God is properly basic. The idea sort of meshed with the philosophy. Now it's sort of like, whoa whoa whoa, maybe we have to rethink this a bit...

            Either way, I'm interested in what he has to say to make his case, and what other historians and social science scholars think about it.
            Interesting. I'm an atheist and I've always thought religion/belief in god was probably the default setting. Would you say that the epicurians were really just polydeists? I.e. They believed in many gods that never interfered with human's and nature.
            Blog: Atheism and the City

            If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by The Thinker View Post
              Interesting. I'm an atheist and I've always thought religion/belief in god was probably the default setting. Would you say that the epicurians were really just polydeists? I.e. They believed in many gods that never interfered with human's and nature.
              Yeah. As far as I can tell, epicureans were essentially the deists of their day.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                What I find peculiar is that, as far back as I remember looking into the subject, historians (of no particular religious or non-religious persuasion) have repeated over and over again that the sort of atheism that existed in the ancient world (and specifically the ancient Greek and Roman world) was not at all the sort of atheism we imagine today. I don't know how many times I've heard that the Psalm "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" did not apply to actual atheist atheists, because the concept of atheism that we think of today did not exist in that period. Or that when the Romans accused Christians of "atheism" they obviously didn't really mean the utter and complete lack of belief in any gods. Or that Epicureans, though they sometimes sounded like atheists, were not really atheists as we know it. Their culture wouldn't allow for it. So to have a new work come out and say, "no, that's not at all correct" is interesting.
                This does seem to be the general case, as I've understood it, as well-- though I do recall evidence that there existed at least some "atheist atheists," in antiquity. For example, as I recall, when certain philosophers were accused of atheism, they responded by saying that they believed in the gods, but simply ascribed different properties to the gods than did the mainstream. This would seem to imply that they are differentiating themselves from others who explicitly did not believe in the gods. However, my recollection on that subject is admittedly vague, so take it with a sizable portion of salt.

                I'm also very interested to see what Whitmarsh brings to the table, in this regard.

                That leads to another point I find interesting. I remember when the theory initially popped up that religious belief was based on some sort of default wiring, it was used by some atheists as an argument against Christianity. Basically the argument boiled down to the idea that faith wasn't something freely chosen, it was evolved into our psyche (or something of that nature). Apologists who went along with philosophers like Plantinga seemed okay with this, because of his view that belief in God is properly basic. The idea sort of meshed with the philosophy. Now it's sort of like, whoa whoa whoa, maybe we have to rethink this a bit...
                I was never comfortable with other atheists who pursued that line of reasoning. It seemed like a fairly blatant genetic fallacy to me. The manner in which a belief originates does not necessarily tell us anything about the veracity of that belief.
                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  Yeah. As far as I can tell, epicureans were essentially the deists of their day.
                  But they believed in more than one god right? That would make them polydeists.
                  Blog: Atheism and the City

                  If your whole worldview rests on a particular claim being true, you damn well better have evidence for it. You should have tons of evidence.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by The Thinker View Post
                    But they believed in more than one god right? That would make them polydeists.
                    I suppose so. :)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm not sure I understand what difference it makes either way. Neither the origins of nor the duration of a given belief has any impact on its veracity. It's definitely interesting to see what ancient peoples believed, though.
                      I'm not here anymore.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        Whitmarsh himself is an atheist and a secular humanist, so while ultimately it comes down to the arguments for his case, it's important to understand where he's approaching the subject from. It seems like a couple of his main points is that arguments for atheism are not new (ALL of them have been repeated before), and that atheism itself is not a modern invention.

                        What I find peculiar is that, as far back as I remember looking into the subject, historians (of no particular religious or non-religious persuasion) have repeated over and over again that the sort of atheism that existed in the ancient world (and specifically the ancient Greek and Roman world) was not at all the sort of atheism we imagine today. I don't know how many times I've heard that the Psalm "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" did not apply to actual atheist atheists, because the concept of atheism that we think of today did not exist in that period. Or that when the Romans accused Christians of "atheism" they obviously didn't really mean the utter and complete lack of belief in any gods. Or that Epicureans, though they sometimes sounded like atheists, were not really atheists as we know it. Their culture wouldn't allow for it. So to have a new work come out and say, "no, that's not at all correct" is interesting.

                        That leads to another point I find interesting. I remember when the theory initially popped up that religious belief was based on some sort of default wiring, it was used by some atheists as an argument against Christianity. Basically the argument boiled down to the idea that faith wasn't something freely chosen, it was evolved into our psyche (or something of that nature). Apologists who went along with philosophers like Plantinga seemed okay with this, because of his view that belief in God is properly basic. The idea sort of meshed with the philosophy. Now it's sort of like, whoa whoa whoa, maybe we have to rethink this a bit...

                        Either way, I'm interested in what he has to say to make his case, and what other historians and social science scholars think about it.
                        It would be bazzario that Romans whould accuse Christians of being atheists. Roman and Greek philosophers understood what atheism was, the belief that Gods do not exist, such as the philosophy of Lucretius, who believed specifically in Philosophical Naturalism or in other words atheism. The Romans accused the Christians of believing and worshiping a false God and rejecting the Roman Gods. This, my friend are facts of history.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-20-2016, 11:26 AM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          It would be bazzario that Romans whould accuse Christians of being atheists. Roman and Greek philosophers understood what atheism was, the belief that Gods do not exist, such as the philosophy of Lucretius, who believed specifically in Philosophical Naturalism or in other words atheism. The Romans accused the Christians of believing and worshiping a false God and rejecting the Roman Gods. This, my friend are facts of history.
                          Breaking news: Early Christians were impious atheists . . . in the eyes of some angry Greeks and Romans, that is. . . . One such remembrance in the form of a story related in a letter from one Christian group to others is the Martyrdom of Polycarp (written in the decades following Polycarp’s death in the 160s CE). It is here that we find the explicit charge of atheism. The angry crowds shout out “away with the atheists!” in reference to the Christians. And, when Polycarp is brought before the Roman governor (proconsul) of Asia for final trial, Polycarp turns the accusation on his accusers (something more than “I know you are but what am I” is going on):

                          “Therefore, when he was brought before him, the proconsul asked if he were Polycarp. And when he confessed that he was, the proconsul tried to persuade him to recant saying, ‘Have respect for your age,’ and other such thngs as they are accustomed to say: ‘Swear by the Genius [guardian spirit] of Caesar; repent, say, ‘Away with the atheists!’ So Polycarp solemnly looked at the whole crowd of lawless heathen who were in the stadium, motioned toward them with his hand, and then (groaning as he looked up to heaven) said, ‘Away with the atheists!'” (Mart. Poly. 9.2; trans. by J.B. Lightfoot and J.R. Harmer and revised by Michael W. Holmes, The Apostolic Fathers [Grand Rapids: Baker, 1992]).

                          Similar charges of “atheism” and “impiety” were brought against Christians in Lyons in France in the 170s CE (see H. Musiurillo, Acts of the Christian Martyrs [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1972], 64-65). The perception of early Christians as atheists was not uncommon. - Philip Harland, Associate Professor of Humanities with a specialization in Religious and Social Life in the Roman Empire, York University, Toronto


                          There's also, of course, Athenagoras' (C.133-190) apology "A Plea for the Christians", which attempted to refute the charge of atheism against the early church: Three things are alleged against us: atheism, Thyestean feasts, Œdipodean intercourse. He then goes chapter after chapter explaining how Christians are not atheists: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0205.htm (chapters 3-14).

                          In the Roman world, the accusation had more to do with the lack of public worship than anything. Judaism was largely able to get around this for being such an old religion, and in the ancient world, anything that was considered old was good. But Christianity was seen as an upstart split from Judaism, and so looked upon with suspicion.

                          I'm surprised at your objection shunya. This is all uncontroversial, relatively well known stuff. I find it a bit ironic that you imply that you know something about "facts of history", and didn't seem to know this.
                          Last edited by Adrift; 02-20-2016, 01:37 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            By the way, Lucretius was your standard Epicurean. He believed in the existence of gods, he simply didn't think they had any interaction with the known world.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              By the way, Lucretius was your standard Epicurean. He believed in the existence of gods, he simply didn't think they had any interaction with the known world.
                              Be prepared for the backlash. Epicurus is practically shunyadragon's hero. Odd that he would pick someone whom he thinks is explicitly atheist for a hero when he is a Bahai'.

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