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STR Ambassador
September 8th 2003, 04:05 PM
Leaping From Frogs to Morals by Gregory Koukl


Learn how to be consistent in your moral reasoning.


Leaping From Frogs to Morals


I talk about morality, because moral issues are among the most important things we could ever consider. With my commitment to clear thinking about Christianity comes a parallel commitment to clear thinking about morality. Since I have this focus, my mental motors are always running, so to speak. I notice when things just don't make good sense, even when I'm half asleep.
That happened to me yesterday morning as I was waking up. My clock radio came on in the middle of a show about animals hosted by Warren Eckstein. He seems to be a nice enough guy, answering questions about the care and training of pets of all kinds.

Eckstein may be a wonderful veterinarian, but when he ventures into moral areas he's an amateur. During the twilight between sleeping and waking, I listened while he launched into a commentary that was so absurd it actually got me chuckling, waking me up even more.

Apparently, there had been some comments made by another talk show host on Eckstein's station about students' objections to dissecting frogs. Such an objection, the host had said, showed that those students didn't show courage. The students weren't motivated by moral sensitivity as they claimed, he said. Indeed, it's actually an example of moral confusion that so much importance would be given to the morality of dissecting frogs.

Mr. Eckstein wasn't happy with that. He was also a bit upset with the tendency to cast anyone who loves animals (which he does) and believes in animal rights (which he does) as an extremist. To Eckstein, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) is rather extreme (I think the term he used was "eccentric"), though he agrees with some of their concepts.

The extremist, according to Eckstein, demands that if you believe in animal rights, you shouldn't be wearing a belt, eating Big Macs, or using animal products of any kind. All those things come from animals whose rights have been violated to get those products, so there does seem to be an inconsistency with those who claim animal rights, but still use animal products.

To Eckstein, though, such an appeal for consistency was extreme. He was quite upset by the demand that if he felt dissecting a frogs was immoral, he was under obligation to apply that view consistently to other areas as well. There's a middle ground, he claimed. You don't have to be an extremist to love animals.

Eckstein clearly thought dissecting a frog was immoral, though. In his words, it was "wrong." It was also unnecessary. Students could use a CD-ROM program that does the same thing, essentially. It just seemed wrong to him for a frog to suffer such indignity.

One caller asked, "If the frog is already dead, how is it a violation of a frog's rights to slice him up in class?" Mr. Eckstein replied, "If you hire a hit man to kill somebody else, you're just as guilty of the crime as he is."

Eckstein equated the life of the frog with the life a human being, and the crime of killing a frog with the crime of killing a human being (which strikes me as muddled to begin with). But he also thought that if you simply dissected the frog, that was tantamount to hiring the "hit man" who collected the frog and "offed" it in the first place.

I have some reflections on Mr. Eckstein's point of view that have to do with the nature of moral reasoning. Obviously, I think it's a mistake to equate hiring a hit man for a human being-and the moral responsibility you bear for participation in the murder of a human being-with the dissection of a frog. Humans have transcendent value. Frogs do not.

But I'm not going to address that issue here. I have a different concern: Mr. Eckstein's claim that he has no obligation to be consistent in his moral reasoning.

It seems to me that Eckstein can only say it's wrong to dissect frogs if he argues from a basis of a larger principle. He can't simply assert it's wrong to dissect frogs. He must demonstrate that this particular action is a specific application of a broader moral rule. The question I want to ask is this: What moral principle is being violated by frog dissection? And if there's a sound moral principle at work here, then it seems that same principle has other applications, too, that ought to be just as sound as the application to dissecting a frog.

Here is why consistency is so important in moral reasoning. Specific moral views-e.g., it's wrong to dissect a frog-are applications of broader moral principles. The moral rule in the Bible that it's wrong to murder is an application of a broader principle. It's the kind of rule that springs forth from an underlying notion that gives sense to a moral rule.

We find this underlying notion a number of times in the Scriptures, but the time that it's connected with the notion of murder comes in Genesis 9, right after the flood. God, talking to Noah, says, "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man." (Genesis 9:6)

This is the first mention of capital punishment. God says that there is an extreme punishment-surrendering your life-when you commit an extreme crime. The extreme crime here is murder, and the reason it's a crime is because of the kind of creature a human being is.

The underlying principle would be: Human beings are valuable because they are God's image-bearers. This requires that we don't take the life of a human being without proper justification.

As I mentioned earlier, moral principles have many applications. The principle of the value of man in God's image also has application to the unborn who shares this image of God. This is why Christians especially (and indeed other prolifers who aren't Christians) are so adamant about abortion-some 36 million killed since 1973-because we see this as a serious violation of the image of God in man. Human beings are the kind of creatures that ought not be treated this way, killed because they're in the way and can't defend themselves.

That same principle applies elsewhere, a point I emphasize whenever I speak to prolife groups. Sometimes we get abusive towards those who are in favor of abortion. Prolifers can get very uncivil and acrimonious. But if we argue for the need to protect the lives of children because they're made in the image of God, then that same rule applies to how we treat those who disagree with us on abortion. Consistency demands this. If we're inconsistent here, if we do not apply the rule evenly across the board, we are called hypocrites, aren't we? And we are, in that regard.

So there's a message here for prolifers, that we ought to be consistent in the application of our moral rules. If we are inconsistent in our application of a moral rule, it looks like we don't really believe in the rule itself. Rather, it looks like we simply don't like abortion and are trying to force our preferences on others. We're just playing with words so we can enforce our private, parochial opinion about the unborn. That's the jam you get into if you're not consistent in applying what you claim is a moral rule.

Mr. Eckstein faces the same problem. If he says that it's wrong to dissect a frog, I'm going to have to ask him why. I need to know the underlying moral principle.

For example, he might respond by saying that the underlying moral principle is that it's wrong to take an animal's life for the sake of mere human benefit. That's a violation of their rights. (Maybe that's not his exact point, but it's something akin to that.)

If that's the principle that renders frog dissection immoral, that very same principle also makes eating meat, wearing leather shoes, or wearing a leather belt equally wrong. If I buy the belt, if I buy the Big Mac, I'm paying the hit man, according to the moral reasoning of Mr. Eckstein.

If Eckstein objects to frog dissection for the reasons he gave, consistency requires that he quit eating meat. How can he object to dissecting the frogs, but not to eating them? The same rule applies.

If it's true that it's morally wrong to use an animal for mere human benefit, then that rule covers a variety of areas. If Eckstein is going to object to frog dissection, he'd better be consistent if he wants anyone to take his moral rule seriously. If he doesn't take the rule itself seriously by using it consistently, we have no good reason to take his application of that rule to frog dissection seriously, either.

This principle of moral thinking applies to us as well. We are also obligated, if any moral principle is true, to live by that principle consistently, or else no one need take our moral view seriously.

One final thought on the issue of deteriorating values as evidenced by this concern for frogs. Apparently, Mr. Eckstein thought the students who stood up against the frog dissection showed good values.

My suspicion is that it was Dennis Prager who made the comment that concern about frog dissection was evidence of the slipping values. I understand why he said this. When he asks high school audiences whether they would save their dog who was drowning or a human being who was drowning (and he asks this question routinely), they always give the same response. One-third say they'd save the human being, one-third say they'd save the dog, and the other third can't decide.

Doesn't it strike you as a deterioration of values when high school students get seriously exercised about the dissection of a dead frog, but two-thirds of them can't see that it's more important to save a human being who's drowning than it is to save a dog?


Stand to Reason - training Christians in the areas of knowledge, wisdom, and character - www.str.org

KwanDuw
September 14th 2003, 07:53 PM
I honestly stay up late at night and contemplate on why Moral Relativism is even a question...I mean the Logical ends of moral arguements support absolute truth to the extent that relativism simply cant stand on its own...yet sooo many people hold to beliefs that morals are relavent. I'm just grateful that the Lord has instructed me in such a way that I can at least spell out simple arguements to these people and try to help them realize that there is an absolute truth...and that truth is found in Christ Jesus.

I'd like to give thanks to Greg Koukl and his staff at STR who've helped me understand the simple, logical errors behind Moral Relativism.

IN HIM~+~
Joshua Diener
Student Northwest College

STR Ambassador
September 16th 2003, 04:41 PM
Joshua,

Thank you for taking the time to post your encouraging reply!

STR Ambassador

bananafish
October 29th 2003, 06:44 PM
For what it's worth I think you may be simplifying Eckstein's logic when it comes to the difference between dissecting frogs and eating meat. You mention that one of his reasons for believing dissection is immoral is that the students could have just as easily learned the material via computer-based instruction. This seems to imply that, at least to Eckstein, needlessness of dissection is central to it being immoral. The main difference, then, between frog dissection and eating meat is that frog dissection provides no tangible benefit to man whereas eating meat does (i.e. in the form of enjoyment).

This of course begs the question: If a student enjoyed dissecting frogs purely out of sadistic pleasure, would it then be moral for him to do so? Eckstein would have to respond yes, based on the above argument, unless he also held the belief that sadism is inherently wrong. Given that I suspect he does hold such a belief, I don't see anything glaringly inconsistent about his views.

Queen
October 30th 2003, 04:52 AM
"The greatness of a nation can be measured by the way it's animals are treated" ~ Mahatma Gandhi ~

Life is life, no matter what species and if you can't treat an animal or other living being with respect, how can you treat a human being with respect?

I believe that you have to learn the children how to respect ALL life, not just human beings. This will teach them morality. Jane Goodall once said that atheist often are more aware of crimes against nature/ living creatures of all species, because religious people tend to lay it in the hands of God. Also religious (I am talking about Christianity here of course) think/believe that God gave them the power to rule over all other (lower) species on this planet. As a believer of evolution I believe that all life is equal, because we are somehow all related by one primitive organism.....emerged on earth around 3.5 billion years ago.

I agree with Warren Eckstein. As a biology teacher I have never forced anyone to disect an animal or whatever. It was their choice. I believe many things can be taught in other ways.

I find some remarks quit Decartes-like. Animals have feelings like us human beings. We can not measure feelings and thoughts....not yet. We are hardly able to understand how the human mind works, with all his emotions and moral views and so on....how do we know how the animal mind works, what they feel.....how they are aware of their surroundings? Because I believe they are like us and we like them, just in a different way. We are build differently and our brain works differently....but who judges which is better........

Just my two cents,

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

Pate
November 12th 2003, 12:06 PM
10-30-2003 @ 08:52 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=264854#post264854)
Queen:

I believe that you have to learn the children how to respect ALL life, not just human beings. This will teach them morality.

I agree with you to certain extent. We should respect nature and be responsible in the ways that we make use of it.



As a believer of evolution I believe that all life is equal, because we are somehow all related by one primitive organism.....emerged on earth around 3.5 billion years ago.

Do you mean that the principle of equality of all life somehow follows from the (possible) fact that all the current lifeforms have a common ancestor in the distant past of evolutionary history? I don't see how that follows.

tsmethers
November 12th 2003, 01:20 PM
"The greatness of a nation can be measured by the way it's animals are treated" ~ Mahatma Gandhi ~

Yet Gandhi was a Hindu and believed in reincarnation. If you thought you would return as a animal wouldn't you want all to be well treated?

Life is life, no matter what species and if you can't treat an animal or other living being with respect, how can you treat a human being with respect?

Life is not life. There are different levels. There is a great divide between us and a cow. Yes, a cow can have emotions. Yes, a cow forms a bond between mother and child. But that does not make it human any more than our having those attributes makes us a cow.

I believe that you have to learn the children how to respect ALL life, not just human beings. This will teach them morality. Jane Goodall once said that atheist often are more aware of crimes against nature/ living creatures of all species, because religious people tend to lay it in the hands of God. Also religious (I am talking about Christianity here of course) think/believe that God gave them the power to rule over all other (lower) species on this planet. As a believer of evolution I believe that all life is equal, because we are somehow all related by one primitive organism.....emerged on earth around 3.5 billion years ago.

Some religious people do lay it in the hands of God. Not all. I felt guilty for days after hitting a squirrel that ran back in front of my van. That's right, it ran back under my van. It had cleared the front and turned around. It wasn't my fault but I regretted the event.
God did give us the power to govern over the animals and resources of this planet. But we take it as dominion. We do not face it as a responsibility but as a right. We have the right to ravage this planet. Wrong. We have the responsibilty to govern this planet and its resources. And as for being related to one common organism, science can not in any way, shape or form support that idea.

Todd

Gilgaron
November 12th 2003, 05:02 PM
tsmethers:
Yet Gandhi was a Hindu and believed in reincarnation. If you thought you would return as a animal wouldn't you want all to be well treated?

Yes. However, if you've ever seen the reasoning behind shutting down a cock fighting ring the authorities often state that violent behavior towards animals leads to violent havior towards humans.

Life is not life. There are different levels. There is a great divide between us and a cow. Yes, a cow can have emotions. Yes, a cow forms a bond between mother and child. But that does not make it human any more than our having those attributes makes us a cow.

She's not stating that they are physically equivalent, but that they are morally equivalent. She is essentially asking you to justify your position as you've illustrated it here.

Some religious people do lay it in the hands of God. Not all. I felt guilty for days after hitting a squirrel that ran back in front of my van. That's right, it ran back under my van. It had cleared the front and turned around. It wasn't my fault but I regretted the event.

This supports her argument that there is a moral imperitive to avoid harming animals. Your own intuition agrees with her, or you would not feel guilt.

God did give us the power to govern over the animals and resources of this planet. But we take it as dominion. We do not face it as a responsibility but as a right. We have the right to ravage this planet. Wrong. We have the responsibilty to govern this planet and its resources.

The two sentences I've bolded seem contradictory. Would you mind clarifying them?

And as for being related to one common organism, science can not in any way, shape or form support that idea.
Todd

Why is that? There are many people who disagree regarding the evidence (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/) for common descent, but I've not heard someone state that it is not inside the realm of what can be scientifically analyzed.

How do you justify that claim?

tsmethers
November 13th 2003, 04:13 PM
Yesterday @ 09:02 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=282552#post282552)
Gilgaron wrote:

Yes. However, if you've ever seen the reasoning behind shutting down a cock fighting ring the authorities often state that violent behavior towards animals leads to violent havior towards humans.

Would violent behavior include hunting? The behavior you may be referring to would be the pleasure that a person gets from watching one animal tear into another or that comes from inflicting pain into another. The motivation drinving that action is the moral being discussed not the action itself.


Life is not life. There are different levels. There is a great divide between us and a cow. Yes, a cow can have emotions. Yes, a cow forms a bond between mother and child. But that does not make it human any more than our having those attributes makes us a cow.”
She's not stating that they are physically equivalent, but that they are morally equivalent. She is essentially asking you to justify your position as you've illustrated it here.

One male lion kills another in order to take over its harem. It then proceeds to kill any other male cub sired by the first in order to destroy that line. There is no moral outrage for this action. For a man to do the same thing would be morally outrageous. There is a difference.

God did give us the power to govern over the animals and resources of this planet. But we take it as dominion. We do not face it as a responsibility but as a right. We have the right to ravage this planet. Wrong. We have the responsibilty to govern this planet and its resources.

The two sentences I've bolded seem contradictory. Would you mind clarifying them?

Sure. We were given a responsibility not a right. We treat this planet as though we made it and have the right to do with it as we wish. This planet is not ours. It was made by God and given to us to manage and care for. Does this help?

And as for being related to one common organism, science can not in any way, shape or form support that idea.
Why is that? There are many people who disagree regarding the evidence (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/) for common descent, but I've not heard someone state that it is not inside the realm of what can be scientifically analyzed.

How do you justify that claim?

What I meant was that though we share traits of other forms of life we have not found any means to bring life into being using inanimate matter. It is unfounded to believe that more advanced life can result from lesser forms.

Gilgaron
November 13th 2003, 05:02 PM
tsmethers:
Would violent behavior include hunting? The behavior you may be referring to would be the pleasure that a person gets from watching one animal tear into another or that comes from inflicting pain into another. The motivation drinving that action is the moral being discussed not the action itself.

Correct, I wanted to provide other examples of people who think hurting animals is wrong to show a variety of reasoning that stems from the same appeal to intuition as caused you to feel bad about running over the animal with your car.

One male lion kills another in order to take over its harem. It then proceeds to kill any other male cub sired by the first in order to destroy that line. There is no moral outrage for this action. For a man to do the same thing would be morally outrageous. There is a difference.

This is irrelevant to Queen's point that OUR actions towards animals should be analogous to our actions against people.

Sure. We were given a responsibility not a right. We treat this planet as though we made it and have the right to do with it as we wish. This planet is not ours. It was made by God and given to us to manage and care for. Does this help?

So if taking care of this planet, which belongs to God, is our responsibility, why do you feel this disagrees with Queen's stance that we should show respect, and good intent if we must kill, to the animals contained therein?

What I meant was that though we share traits of other forms of life we have not found any means to bring life into being using inanimate matter. It is unfounded to believe that more advanced life can result from lesser forms.

We bring life into being from inanimate matter all the time, that is one of the purposes the food you ate today is being put to. I believe you're referring to abiogenesis, in any case. The latter part is referring to common descent, a seperate theory. The link I provided shows why common descent is not unfounded. If you wish to discuss evolution or abiogenesis, the Natural Sciences forum here is quite full of such topics. This one (http://theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8357) might be of interest to you, it is very long but a range of topics are discussed. This thread isn't the proper place.

tsmethers
November 14th 2003, 03:29 PM
Gilgaron: wrote
Correct, I wanted to provide other examples of people who think hurting animals is wrong to show a variety of reasoning that stems from the same appeal to intuition as caused you to feel bad about running over the animal with your car.

But that's just me. I do not consider someone who runs over an animal accidentally and feels no harm was done as less moral.

This is irrelevant to Queen's point that OUR actions towards animals should be analogous to our actions against people.

Why? Why should our actions toward animals be considered moral or immoral? To me it is the motivation behind the actions that matters. If I kill a rabbit for food, am I acting immorally? No. If I kill it for the simple pleasure of killing, then yes.

So if taking care of this planet, which belongs to God, is our responsibility, why do you feel this disagrees with Queen's stance that we should show respect, and good intent if we must kill, to the animals contained therein?

Genesis 9:3-4
3 "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as {I gave} the green plant. 4 "Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, {that is,} its blood.

We have been given permission to use those animals as a source of food. Are we required to? No, a person can choose not to do so. But it is not immoral to kill an animal for food.

Romans 14:1-3
1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.

But again my point was not whether it was done for food but the motivation behind the action.

We bring life into being from inanimate matter all the time, that is one of the purposes the food you ate today is being put to. I believe you're referring to abiogenesis, in any case. The latter part is referring to common descent, a seperate theory. The link I provided shows why common descent is not unfounded. If you wish to discuss evolution or abiogenesis, the Natural Sciences forum here is quite full of such topics. ...This thread isn't the proper place.

We continue life by the act of digestion. New life is not created only the continuation of previously existing life. And in defense I did not bring up the idea of either subject, it was a response to a previous posting. Thank you.

Gilgaron
November 14th 2003, 05:29 PM
tsmethers:
But that's just me. I do not consider someone who runs over an animal accidentally and feels no harm was done as less moral.

That the appeal to intuition is common is enough for Queen's point. Any moral claim will be represented on a bell curve with individuals who do not hold to it.

Why? Why should our actions toward animals be considered moral or immoral? To me it is the motivation behind the actions that matters. If I kill a rabbit for food, am I acting immorally? No. If I kill it for the simple pleasure of killing, then yes.

I'd agree with you there, personally. If I kill a person out of self defense (motivation) it is treated differently than if I murder them.

Genesis 9:3-4
3 "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as {I gave} the green plant. 4 "Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, {that is,} its blood.

We have been given permission to use those animals as a source of food. Are we required to? No, a person can choose not to do so. But it is not immoral to kill an animal for food.

Not to misrepresent Queen, but I think she meant that it was immoral to kill animals under at least some conditions, which you agree with. The conditions may be at issue.

We continue life by the act of digestion. New life is not created only the continuation of previously existing life. And in defense I did not bring up the idea of either subject, it was a response to a previous posting. Thank you.

Not entirely true, but you're probably not a biologist. I did not mean anything as an attack for bringing it up, just pointing out if you desired further discussion that there were places to do it.

We seem to have reached an understanding, thanks for being pleasant to converse with.