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servant_wayne
February 17th 2003, 05:38 PM
In an effort to rescue Acts from itself and its contradictions of Galatians, apologists try to confound the confused by dazzling them with lofty sounding technical terms. One such term most favored by apologists is exegesis, a crafty device used for scriptural interpretations. In other words, this ploy allows them to read things into scriptures that will uphold their desired interpretation or agenda. It is through use of exegesis that they try to dismiss an obvious contradiction, where Paul says that after his conversion he went but twice to Jerusalem, while Acts is saying that he went three times.

Apologists, who rightly acknowledge that Galatians 1 & 2 and Acts 9 & 15 are concerned with the same matters, are trying to rescue Acts from itself by claiming Paul simply felt the visit mentioned in Acts 11 was not relevant to his argument. They claim it is for this reason that he did not mention it in Galatians. Others, who are embarrassed by contradictions between Galatians 2 and Acts 15, are trying to claim that Galatians 2 equals Acts 11, and Acts 15 occurred at a later date. If they are not questioning Paul's credibility of when he says he went to Jerusalem it is an absurd claim, for it has Paul being converted before the death of Jesus!

Acts 11:30 ends with Barnabas and Saul being sent to Jerusalem and Acts 12:1 begins with "Now about that time," thus these accounts are concerned with what occurred during the time that Barnabas and Saul were sent to Jerusalem. In Acts12:23 Herod Agrippa dies and shortly after that it is said that Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem. It is believed that Jesus was crucified around 30 AD and it is a matter of historical record that Herod Agrippa died in 44 AD. Therefore, there are 14 years between the death of Jesus and Herod Agrippa, 44 AD - 30 AD. Whereas in Galatians, Paul says he waited 3 years after returning from Arabia before going to Jerusalem and that he went again 14 years later. This is 17years. Therefore, to claim Galatians 2:1-10 is the visit of Acts 11:30 without saying the accounts in Galatians are wrong means Paul's conversion occurred before the death of Jesus.

To consider all the evidence concerning contradictions between Galatians and Acts go here: http://members.cox.net/galatians/house1.html

GrayPilgrim
February 17th 2003, 10:12 PM
This is a higher critical debate which is more the domain of the Religion section than teh exegetical section which is more concerned with lower criticism and textual argumetns so I will be transferring this to the Religion Forum.

jpholding
February 18th 2003, 11:24 AM
GP and all,

You may wish to consider transferring it to the fruits and nuts forum. Just so you know who this guy is:

http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_PCM.html

Wayne tosses aside any scholarship that disagrees with his vision of purple clouds and Satan wearing a Jesus mask. If you think FTill was bad, just wait until you see Wayne row his boat. I've answered him time and time again and chased him off other forums (including a Mormon one), and I expect this will be no exception. Assuming he was doing any more than dropping like a pigeon on a statue in the first place.

servant_wayne
February 20th 2003, 03:06 PM
Other than having a gift for sarcasm, Robert ****** (A.k.a. James Patrick Holding) your arguments do not resolve the contradictions between Galatians and Acts. If one is interested there is a link on my site regarding your debates with Till.

jpholding
February 20th 2003, 05:07 PM
servant_wayne:
Other than having a gift for sarcasm, Robert ****** (A.k.a. James Patrick Holding) your arguments do not resolve the contradictions between Galatians and Acts. If one is interested there is a link on my site regarding your debates with Till.

Well, Wayne &^%&$, I flattened your arguments a long time ago in the article I referenced above. I did it ages ago when you were chased off Zion's Lighthouse. :smile: Still waiting for your response which will probably never come.

How's that purple cloud doing?

servant_wayne
February 20th 2003, 05:39 PM
******, rather than just making an idle boast address the argument that I have posted. If people want to see unedited versions of how you "flatten" your opponents they can go here: http://theskepticalreview.com/debate-idx.html

spl_cadet
February 20th 2003, 07:52 PM
wayne, two things.
1. Please follow the request of JP Holding and of the board owners and mods and use his psuedonym. Whether or not you agree with the reasons is unimportant.
2. I've seen them debate and I've seen some of Till's stuff at the Skeptical Review. JP isn't lying, he does flatten his opponents.

servant_wayne
February 20th 2003, 08:28 PM
Look, I'm not here to hold anyone's hand or play paddy-cakes. If you or holdings have an argument with my post, post it and quit the boasting.

jpholding
February 20th 2003, 08:30 PM
servant_wayne:
******, rather than just making an idle boast address the argument that I have posted. If people want to see unedited versions of how you "flatten" your opponents they can go here: http://theskepticalreview.com/debate-idx.html

Yo Wayne,

I did:

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_02_03_06.html
http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_PCM.html -- at the end

And we're still waiting for you to respond with something other than reference to that vision of purple clouds and insults to scholars.

And if you want to swallow FTill's lines whole, how about an example of an edited argument that actually hurt his case? He sure can't seem to find one.

Wayne, do I need to call the Lion of Judah over here to deal with you too? Mmmm? She still thinks you're funny. :rofl:

SPL, my thanks. :smile:

jpholding
February 20th 2003, 08:40 PM
As a public service though, here's a summation of how to respond to Wayne's drivel. The articles go into moe detail, but basically:

In an effort to rescue Acts from itself and its contradictions of Galatians, apologists try to confound the confused by dazzling them with lofty sounding technical terms. One such term most favored by apologists is exegesis, a crafty device used for scriptural interpretations.

This tells us right away what Wayne thinks of scholarship. Any questions?

where Paul says that after his conversion he went but twice to Jerusalem, while Acts is saying that he went three times.

The basic answer is that Wayne needs to date Galatians between the events of Acts 11 and Acts 15, as the article linked details. See the second link for Wayne's flustered attempt at an answer. Thus when Paul wrote, he had indeed only gone twice.

trying to rescue Acts from itself by claiming Paul simply felt the visit mentioned in Acts 11 was not relevant to his argument.

No apologist I know makes such a lame argument, but maybe Wayne meets a lot of odd people in those visions he has.

Galatians 2 equals Acts 11, and Acts 15 occurred at a later date. If they are not questioning Paul's credibility of when he says he went to Jerusalem it is an absurd claim, for it has Paul being converted before the death of Jesus!

That's my answer, all right, but how does the second sentence answer this? It doesn't. Nor does anything else after this.

record that Herod Agrippa died in 44 AD. Therefore, there are 14 years between the death of Jesus and Herod Agrippa, 44 AD - 30 AD. Whereas in Galatians, Paul says he waited 3 years after returning from Arabia before going to Jerusalem and that he went again 14 years later. This is 17years.

No, it's 14 or as little as 12. The times overlap and parts of a year were counted as though a whole in ancient and Jewish reckoning. Now is that all? We're kind of busy here, Wayne. I can drop some Witherington on you but you probably wouldn't notice.

servant_wayne
February 20th 2003, 08:41 PM
I'm going to go through that mess of yours and see what was edited out.

servant_wayne
February 20th 2003, 09:21 PM
To begin with, the number of Jerusalem visits is but a single point in an argument that has many points. When all the points are considered together, the preponderance of the evidence makes it self-evident that Acts is contradicting Galatians.

Concerning your claim: "No apologist I know makes such a lame argument, but maybe Wayne meets a lot of odd people in those visions he has."

See: http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/jwmcgarvey/sebc/SEBC161.HTM

Also see:
http://www.bible.org/docs/nt/books/gal/gal-intr.htm

http://www.theologywebsite.com/nt/galatians.shtml

http://www.paulonpaul.org/workshop/acts_source_1.htm

jpholding
February 20th 2003, 10:50 PM
servant_wayne:
To begin with, the number of Jerusalem visits is but a single point in an argument that has many points. When all the points are considered together, the preponderance of the evidence makes it self-evident that Acts is contradicting Galatians.


Well, Wayne, I got all those points covered in the linked article. :p Now bring your goods to the fore or take it on the lam like you did on ZLMB and elsewhere.

Ya'll know that Wayne always ends up getting banned from these places.

servant_wayne
February 20th 2003, 11:10 PM
Your reply is a perfect example of the emptiness in your claims of wining debates.

servant_wayne
February 20th 2003, 11:14 PM
You made an accusation "No apologist I know makes such a lame argument, but maybe Wayne meets a lot of odd people in those visions he has."


In the first link did you not see" To this end it was not necessary to mention all the visits he had made to Jerusalem, .."

jpholding
February 21st 2003, 06:06 AM
02-21-2003 @ 03:14 AM
servant_wayne:

You made an accusation "No apologist I know makes such a lame argument, but maybe Wayne meets a lot of odd people in those visions he has."


In the first link did you not see" To this end it was not necessary to mention all the visits he had made to Jerusalem, .."

Now I know of one at least. Whoopee.

As for empty, still waiting for specifics rather than purple mist, Wayne.

servant_wayne
February 21st 2003, 03:44 PM
I am a former Fundamentalist, who still approaches the interpretation of the Bible by its literal meaning. My argument is based strictly on the words that are in Galatians and Acts; nothing is added that will make them conform to one another. I let the chips fall where they may in regards to what they are literally saying.

To try and claim Galatians 2:2 equals Acts11:30 and that Acts 15 occurred at a later date, several things must be explained away. The first thing to be considered is the reason that is given for the journey in Galatians 2:2 and that in Acts11:30?

"A dearth throughout all the world"

Some try and claim that the prophesy in Acts11:30 is the revelation in Galatians 2. Yet the revelation in Galatians 2:2 says nothing that would infer Paul went to Jerusalem to bring relief because of a dearth throughout the entire world, but suggests that it had something to do with his gospel.

Galatians 2: 2 ...I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles...

Whereas, the only reason in Acts 11 for Saul going to Jerusalem is to deliver relief because of a dearth throughout all the world, period!

Acts 11:27 ...in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. 28: And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. 29: Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea: 30: Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.
Galatians 2 & Acts 11

If the agreement in Galatians 2:7-9 occurred before Acts 15, what was the primary issue that Paul and the leaders of Jerusalem Church agreed to?

Galatians 2:7 ...that we should go unto the heathen (Gentiles), and they unto the circumcision (Jews)...

What does Saul do after Act 11?

Acts 13:5 ...(Barnabas and Saul) preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews...

In Acts 13:9 and onward Saul is now referred to as Paul and curiously his name and importance now precedes that of Barnabas.
Acts 13:14 ...they (Paul and Barnabas) came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue...

Acts 14:1 ...(Paul and Barnabas) went both together into the synagogue of the Jews...

If there was an agreement why must the Gentiles resort to asking Paul to preach to them?

Acts 13:42 ... when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought (Paul) that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Galatians 2 & Acts 15

If the agreement in Galatians 2:7-9 was made during or after the Jerusalem conference in Acts 15, what was the primary issue that Paul and the leaders of Jerusalem Church agreed to?

Galatians 2:7 that we should go unto the heathen (Gentiles), and they unto the circumcision (Jews).

What does the Paul of Acts do after Act 15?

Acts 17:1 ...where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2: And Paul, AS HIS MANNER WAS, WENT IN UNTO THEM...

Acts 17:10 ...(Paul and Silas) coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews...

Acts 17:17 ...disputed he (Paul) in the synagogue with the Jews...

Acts 18:4 ...(Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath...

Why would Paul need to threaten to go to the Gentiles?
Acts 18:6 Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Acts 18:19 ...(Paul) himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Acts 19:8 ...(Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months...

The Galatians Agreement

Regardless of how one tries to harmonize Acts with the agreement in Galatians 2:7-9, the Paul of Acts is oblivious of that agreement. The Paul of Acts preaches to the Jews in their synagogues wherever he went and thus is continually violating the agreement. The meaningless threat in Acts 18:6, "from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles," makes it self-evident that the author of Acts was either ignorant of the agreement, or is purposely denying that there was an agreement.

Argument that claims Paul could not reach the Gentiles except through the synagogues is like saying the gentiles were willing to be circumcised just to hear what Paul had to say.

Every attempt that I've seen trying to rescue Acts from itself are willingly sacrificing Paul's credibility to accept the account of a secondary source over a primary source.

jpholding
February 21st 2003, 04:09 PM
Wayne, I answered all this nonsense in my article already. But since you want to play, the summation:

"A dearth throughout all the world"

Correct. And BTW the word "world" is oikoumene which refers only to the Roman Empire in Luke's works.

Yet the revelation in Galatians 2:2 says nothing that would infer Paul went to Jerusalem to bring relief because of a dearth throughout the entire world, but suggests that it had something to do with his gospel.

Oh?

Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

And who suffered most during a dearth? Not a word in Galatians, BTW, "suggests" any such thing.

Galatians 2:7 ...that we should go unto the heathen (Gentiles), and they unto the circumcision (Jews)...What does Saul do after Act 11? Acts 13:5 ...(Barnabas and Saul) preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews...

Hello? I answered this too, Wayne. "Unto" here is geography -- Judaea versus the rest of the Roman world. This renders the rest of your screed here irrelevant.

If there was an agreement why must the Gentiles resort to asking Paul to preach to them?

Acts 13:42 ... when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought (Paul) that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

You tell us. By your own reckoning these Gentiles were asking Paul to do something he was already doing. Sounds to me like they were asking him to make a public speaking engagement.

If the agreement in Galatians 2:7-9 was made during or after the Jerusalem conference in Acts 15

Before. Not during or after.

What does the Paul of Acts do after Act 15?

The same thing he did in Acts 14.

Why would Paul need to threaten to go to the Gentiles?

"Threaten"? As in bodily harm? How about making an actual point here?

Wayne, get your act together any try actually answering what I've written rather than regurgitating the same pap over and over again.

servant_wayne
February 21st 2003, 05:02 PM
Holding: "Oh? Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do"

You mean like tell one who has just brought relief for the poor that they should remember the poor?

************************************************************

Galatians 2:7 ...that we should go unto the heathen (Gentiles), and they unto the circumcision (Jews)...What does Saul do after Act 11? Acts 13:5 ...(Barnabas and Saul) preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews...

Holding: Hello? I answered this too, Wayne. "Unto" here is geography -- Judaea versus the rest of the Roman world. This renders the rest of your screed here irrelevant.

Golly gee, why didn't Paul just say that?

**********************************************
If there was an agreement why must the Gentiles resort to asking Paul to preach to them?

Acts 13:42 ... when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought (Paul) that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Holding: "You tell us. By your own reckoning these Gentiles were asking Paul to do something he was already doing. Sounds to me like they were asking him to make a public speaking engagement."

It's obvious to me, Acts does not recognize any agreement as to who with preach to whom. That Paul was determined to preaches to the Jews first.

***************************************
Why would Paul need to threaten to go to the Gentiles?

Holding: "Threaten"? As in bodily harm? How about making an actual point here?"

You mean like say one thing, but doing otherwise?

****************************************

Holding: Wayne, get your act together any try actually answering what I've written rather than regurgitating the same pap over and over again.

That's funny, I've yet to see anything in your claim that proves your argument is correct.

jpholding
February 21st 2003, 09:36 PM
Gee Wayne,

You mean like tell one who has just brought relief for the poor that they should remember the poor?

Aren't you the insensitive boor. So did you donate to the Salvation Army and tell them once was enough and they would never need more? :duh:

Golly gee, why didn't Paul just say that?

He did. You just think study of Greek is a scam.

It's obvious to me, Acts does not recognize any agreement as to who with preach to whom.

It shouldn't, because there wasn't one. There was a geographic agreement, not a personal one.

That Paul was determined to preaches to the Jews first.

You mean like say one thing, but doing otherwise?

Same problem -- your messup of geography vs personal.

That's funny, I've yet to see anything in your claim that proves your argument is correct.

Get the purple clouds out of your eyes and you may just see something after all. :rofl: Does everyone see why I can't take this guy seriously?

servant_wayne
February 21st 2003, 11:23 PM
Now I remember what ended our last debate. A person simply becomes weary of your childishness and that is why they cease debating with you; whereas, due to your vanity, you think that you've overcome them with brilliant replies.

I have better things to do than waste time with one who says he's already answered all the points in my argument. If there are others here who would like to address what I've posted, I'd like to hear from you.

Wayne

jpholding
February 22nd 2003, 09:51 AM
For those who can't read Waynese:

Now I remember what ended our last debate. A person simply becomes weary of [confronting data they can't answer and so they make up some excuse about] your childishness [such as pointing out that Wayne's scholarship is rooted in purple cloud visions] and that is why they cease debating with you; whereas, due to your vanity, you think that you've overcome them with brilliant replies [substantiated by scholars like Witherington, who Wayne says are trying to fool everyone].

We have better things to do too, Wayne. It's time for you to move on and find another forum to copy and paste your already-refduted trollisms on.

servant_wayne
February 22nd 2003, 02:25 PM
It doesn't require a vision to recognize that Acts is contradicting Galatians. The only thing required is some common sense. If you use the periscope method it will be obvious. One does not need to rely on what I say or what another might say, the evidence is there for all to see.

Concerning the argument of whether or not the agreement in Galatians 2 is referring to a geographical region, rather than a people:

See Acts 15:7 and consider the vision that's being referring to. The same Greek word (Strong's #1484) used in Acts 15:7 and in Galatians 1:16 & 2:8-9. You may also want to see #203 & #4061.

GrayPilgrim
February 22nd 2003, 11:13 PM
εθνος (eqnos) is used in the following passages:


Gen. 10:5, 20, 31f; 12:2; 14:1, 5, 9; 15:14; 17:4ff, 16, 20, 27; 18:18; 20:4; 21:13, 18; 22:18; 25:16, 23; 26:4; 27:29; 28:3; 35:11; 36:40; 46:3; 48:4, 19; 49:10; Exod. 1:9; 9:24; 15:14; 19:5f; 21:8; 23:11, 18, 22, 27; 32:10; 33:13, 16; 34:10, 24; Lev. 18:24, 28; 19:16; 20:2, 23f, 26; 21:1; 25:44; 26:33, 38, 45; Num. 13:28, 31; 14:12, 15; 21:18; 23:9; 24:7f, 20; 25:15; Deut. 1:28; 2:10, 21, 25; 4:6ff, 19, 27, 33f, 38; 6:14; 7:1, 6f, 14, 16f, 19, 22; 8:20; 9:1, 4f, 14; 10:15; 11:23; 12:29f; 13:8; 14:2; 15:6; 17:14; 18:9, 14; 19:1; 20:15f; 26:5, 19; 28:1, 10, 12, 32f, 36f, 49f, 64f; 29:15, 17, 23; 30:1, 3; 31:3; 32:8, 21, 28, 43; 33:17, 19; Jos. 4:24; 23:3f, 7, 9, 12f; 24:4, 17f, 33; Jda. 2:20f, 23; 3:1; 4:2, 13, 16; Jdg. 2:12, 20f, 23; 3:1; 4:2, 13, 16; 1 Sam. 8:5, 20; 2 Sam. 7:23; 22:44, 50; 1 Ki. 11:2; 14:24; 18:10; 2 Ki. 6:18; 16:3; 17:8, 11, 15, 26, 29, 32f, 41; 18:33; 19:12, 17; 21:2, 9; 1 Chr. 14:17; 16:20, 26, 28, 31, 35; 17:21; 18:11; 29:11; 2 Chr. 7:20; 15:6; 20:6; 28:3; 32:7, 13ff, 17, 23; 33:2, 9; 36:14; 1 Es. 1:4, 22, 32, 34, 47, 49; 2:3; 5:9, 49, 69; 6:32; 7:13; 8:10, 13, 64, 66f, 84, 89; 9:9; Ezr. 4:10; 6:21; 9:7, 11; Neh. 5:8f, 17; 6:6, 16; 13:26; Est. 1:1, 3, 5, 11; 3:8, 11ff; 4:1, 11, 17; 8:12, 17; 10:3; Jdt. 1:6, 8; 3:8; 4:1, 12; 5:21; 8:22; 9:14; 14:7; 16:17; Tob. 1:3, 10; 3:4; 4:19; 13:3, 5, 8, 13; 14:6; Tbs. 1:3, 10f, 17; 2:3; 3:4; 13:3, 5, 13; 14:6; 1 Ma. 1:3f, 11, 13ff, 34, 42; 2:10, 12, 18f, 40, 44, 48, 68; 3:10, 25f, 45, 48, 52, 58f; 4:7, 11, 14, 45, 54, 58, 60; 5:1, 9f, 19, 21f, 38, 43, 57, 63; 6:18, 53, 58; 7:23; 8:23, 25, 27; 9:29; 10:5, 20, 25; 11:21, 25, 30, 33, 38, 42; 12:3, 6, 53; 13:6, 36, 41; 14:4, 6, 28ff, 32, 35f; 15:1f, 9; 16:3; 2 Ma. 1:27; 4:35; 5:19f; 6:4, 14, 31; 7:37; 8:5, 9, 16; 10:4, 8; 11:3, 25, 27; 12:13; 13:11; 14:14f, 34; 15:8, 10; 3 Ma. 1:11; 2:27, 33; 3:15, 19f; 4:1; 5:6, 13; 6:5, 9, 13, 15, 26; 7:4; 4 ma. 1:11; 3:7; 4:1, 7, 18f, 24, 26; 6:28; 9:24; 12:17; 15:29; 16:16; 17:8, 20f; 18:4; Ps. 2:1, 8; 9:6, 12, 16, 18, 20f, 37; 17:44, 50; 21:28f; 32:10, 12; 42:1; 43:3, 12, 15; 45:7, 11; 46:2, 4, 9; 48:2; 56:10; 58:6, 9; 64:8; 65:7f; 66:3, 5; 67:31; 71:11, 17; 77:55; 78:1, 6, 10; 79:9; 81:8; 82:5; 85:9; 88:51; 93:10; 95:3, 5, 7, 10; 97:2; 101:16; 104:1, 13, 44; 105:5, 27, 34f, 41, 47; 107:4; 109:6; 110:6; 112:4; 113:10, 12; 116:1; 117:10; 125:2; 134:10, 15; 147:9; 149:7; Odes 1:14; 2:8, 21, 28, 42f; 4:6, 12; 7:37; 13:32; Prov. 11:26; 14:28, 34; 24:24; 26:3; 28:15, 17; 29:9, 18; 30:26, 31; Job 12:23; 17:6; 34:29; 40:30; Wis. 3:8; 6:2; 8:14; 10:5, 15; 12:12; 14:11; 15:15; 17:2; Sir. 4:15; 10:8, 15f; 16:6, 9; 17:17; 24:6; 28:14; 29:18; 35:20; 36:1f; 39:4, 10, 23; 44:19, 21; 46:6; 49:5; 50:25; Ps. Sol. 1:8; 2:2, 6, 19, 22; 7:3, 6; 8:13, 23, 30; 9:2, 9; 17:3, 14f, 22, 24f, 29ff, 34; Hos. 8:8, 10; 9:17; Amos 6:1, 14; 9:9, 12; Mic. 4:2f, 7, 11, 13; 5:6f, 14; 7:16; Joel 1:6; 2:17, 19; 4:2, 8f, 11f; Obad. 1:1f, 15f; Nah. 3:3ff; Hab. 1:6, 17; 2:5, 8, 13; 3:6, 12; Zeph. 2:1, 9, 11; 3:8; Hag. 2:7, 14, 22; Zech. 1:15; 2:4, 12, 15; 7:14; 8:13, 22f; 9:10; 12:3, 9; 14:2f, 16, 18f; Mal. 1:11, 14; 2:9; 3:9, 12; Isa. 1:4; 2:2ff; 5:26; 8:9, 19, 23; 10:6f, 13; 11:10, 12; 12:4; 13:4; 14:2, 6, 9, 12, 18, 26, 32; 16:8; 17:12f; 18:2, 7; 23:3; 24:13; 25:6f; 29:7f; 30:6, 28; 33:3, 8, 12; 34:1f; 36:18, 20; 37:12, 26; 40:15, 17; 41:2, 5, 28; 42:1, 4, 6; 43:9; 45:1, 20; 49:1, 6ff, 22; 51:4f; 52:5, 10, 15; 54:3; 55:4f; 56:7; 60:2f, 5, 11f, 16, 22; 61:6, 9, 11; 62:2, 10; 63:3; 64:1; 65:1; 66:8, 12, 18ff; Jer. 1:5, 10; 2:11; 3:17, 19; 4:2, 7, 16; 5:9, 15, 29; 6:18, 22; 7:27; 9:15, 25; 10:2f, 25; 12:17; 14:22; 16:19; 18:7ff, 13; 22:8; 25:9, 11f, 14, 16; 26:12, 28; 27:2f, 9, 12, 23, 41, 46; 28:7, 20, 27f, 41, 44, 58; 30:8f, 26; 31:2; 32:13, 15, 17, 31f; 33:6; 34:8, 11; 35:11, 14; 38:7, 10, 37; 43:2; 51:8; Bar. 2:13, 29; 3:16; 4:3, 6, 15; Lam. 1:1, 3, 10; 2:9; 4:15, 17, 20; Ep. Jer. 1:3, 50, 66; Ezek. 4:13; 5:5ff, 15; 6:8f; 11:16f; 12:15f; 16:14; 19:4, 8; 20:9, 14, 22f, 32; 22:4, 15f; 23:30; 25:7f; 26:2f, 5, 7, 16; 27:33, 36; 28:7, 19, 25; 29:12f, 15; 30:3, 11, 23, 26; 31:6, 11f, 16; 32:2, 9f, 12, 16, 18; 34:13, 28f; 35:10; 36:3ff, 13ff, 19ff, 30, 36; 37:21f, 28; 38:6, 8f, 12, 15f, 22f; 39:4, 7, 21, 23, 27f; Dan. 2:44; 3:2, 4, 7, 37, 96; 4:21, 34, 37; 5:1; 6:26; 7:14; 8:22; 9:6, 26; 11:14, 23, 33, 37; Dat. 3:37; 8:22; 11:23; 12:1; Matt. 4:15; 6:32; 10:5, 18; 12:18, 21; 20:19, 25; 21:43; 24:7, 9, 14; 25:32; 28:19; Mk. 10:33, 42; 11:17; 13:8, 10; Lk. 2:32; 7:5; 12:30; 18:32; 21:10, 24f; 22:25; 23:2; 24:47; Jn. 11:48, 50ff; 18:35; Acts 2:5; 4:25, 27; 7:7, 45; 8:9; 9:15; 10:22, 35, 45; 11:1, 18; 13:19, 46ff; 14:2, 5, 16, 27; 15:3, 7, 12, 14, 17, 19, 23; 17:26; 18:6; 21:11, 19, 21, 25; 22:21; 24:2, 10, 17; 26:4, 17, 20, 23; 28:19, 28; Rom. 1:5, 13; 2:14, 24; 3:29; 4:17f; 9:24, 30; 10:19; 11:11ff, 25; 15:9ff, 16, 18, 27; 16:4, 26; 1 Co. 1:23; 5:1; 12:2; 2 Co. 11:26; Gal. 1:16; 2:2, 8f, 12, 14f; 3:8, 14; Eph. 2:11; 3:1, 6, 8; 4:17; Col. 1:27; 1 Thess. 2:16; 4:5; 1 Tim. 2:7; 3:16; 2 Tim. 4:17; 1 Pet. 2:9, 12; 4:3; Rev. 2:26; 5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 11:2, 9, 18; 12:5; 13:7; 14:6, 8; 15:3f; 16:19; 17:15; 18:3, 23; 19:15; 20:3, 8; 21:24, 26; 22:2


Now your argument would mean that all 1176 times it is used is the same event.

GrayPilgrim
February 22nd 2003, 11:28 PM
Moreover look up the definiton of exegsis in dicitonary, according to the Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictioanry 1:444 (1960):

Explanation of thelnguage and thought of a literary work

Now last time I checked Funk & Wagnalls were not obfuscators of hte biblical text as you claim those who engage in exegsis are. It is the term used to describe part of hte reading process. In fact whenever you read you are exegeting the text. So on Sunday morning when you read the comics you the exegetical process runs like this:

Determine the genre
Decode the words
decifer said words
discover the intended message
laugh when you find it funny


Ex:
When one reads that Hagar the Horrible has sacked England and carried off the riches of England, one does not lament the destuction of Britian. One says, hey this is a comic strip, which means fictitious and intended to entertain. One then looks for the humor intedned behind the attack and Hagar's return to an undoubtedly upset wife. That is exegesis.

GP

jpholding
February 23rd 2003, 12:15 AM
02-22-2003 @ 06:25 PM
servant_wayne:

See Acts 15:7 and consider the vision that's being referring to. The same Greek word (Strong's #1484) used in Acts 15:7 and in Galatians 1:16 & 2:8-9. You may also want to see #203 & #4061.

Better get started looking up all 1176 of those references. :rofl:

One does not need to rely on what I say or what another might say, the evidence is there for all to see.

Wayne, your head in the sand approach will get you nothing but laughs on this forum. GP is a few ticks from being a degreed scholar (if I am not mistaken). My sources are scholars. And using them, I said ages ago:

Not for the only time, I wonder whether Harrington is aware that Paul wrote more letters than just Galatians. We have already seen that that letter says no such thing about the Gentile mission per se as being because of a revelation. (It was, again, Paul's gospel that was revealed to him -- and even then, as we have noted elsewhere, even that statement does not exclude any previous knowledge by Paul of Christian belief, since in persecuting the church he had to have some previous idea of what they believed!) But Acts is far from alone in noting that Paul preached in the synagogues before he preached to the Gentiles. Really -- what does Harrington make of Paul's statements in Romans that the gospel is "first for the Jew, and then for the Gentile", which corresponds exactly with the practice of Paul depicted in Acts? (Rom. 1:16, etc.) How does he explain Paul's statement that "to the Jews (he) become(s) a Jew", unless Paul was actively preaching to Jews? What does he think was the cause for Paul receiving the 39 stripes five different times (2 Cor. 11:24) -- an internal synagogual disciplinary procedure? Was Paul being flogged for littering? The problem here is that Harrington somehow presumes 1) that preaching "among" Gentiles means that Paul always and exclusively preached to Gentiles from the moment of his conversion -- which is an absurdly literalistic reading that does no justice to the realities of language; and 2) that Acts depicts Paul's trips from Jew to Gentile as the result of a direct cause-and-effect relationship (get kicked out of the synagogue ---> go to the Gentiles) that is neither specified nor justified in the text. There is not a single reputable scholar who believes this sort of nonsense that Harrington proposes. Paul thought himself the Apostle to the Gentiles, and does indeed indicate that it was God's will that he be the one to do it, but both his letters and Acts indicate that his mission to Jews was far from cast aside because of that commission. (Nor does Paul say in Gal. 2:7-9, as Harrington supposes, that "the Gentile proselytes of the synagogues were under the law, and thereby, had placed themselves under the authority of James, Peter, and John..." The text says no such thing at all, although perhaps this is the mirror image of Harrington's literalistic misreading of Paul's "Gentile only" mission. So, then, what did Paul do when he was preaching to a crowd of Gentiles, and Jews showed up? Did he shut up until the Jews left?)

At the same time, being "among" the Gentiles simply means to be in a Gentile land (as opposed to Judaea). The preposition here denotes a fixed position in place, time or state. It does not carry the sense of Paul preaching only to Gentiles.

And:

Harrington's answer to this is a real oil well: "In some regions of Paul's ministry to the Gentiles the Jews were influential enough to pressure local authorities to allow them to have Paul stoned, whipped, and expelled from their cities." What's that? Where does Harrington get this ream of wild speculation from? This is completely ad hoc and contrary to the norm in the Greco-Roman world. The Jews were granted full religious rights by the Romans and did not need permission from local authorities to do their internal disciplinary procedures; but they could not, on the other hand, drag just anyone in they liked and apply the punishments, and those punishments were in response to certain violations of synagogue policy. No one said anything about "stoned, whipped, and expelled" in this context. The reference is to the 39 stripes alone, which was a procedure performed by Jews within the context of their own synagogue, for offenses within the synagogue. If Paul were preaching to Gentiles and it offended them, then indeed they might stone him, whip him, or chase him out of town (as Acts does record happened), but he could not have gotten the 39 lashes without being in some way inside the synagogue and violating one of their rules. So again, what was Paul doing, littering? No -- he was preaching what these Jews thought was blasphemy -- the gospel that equated Jesus with the divine.

Wayne adds, "Besides, Paul's statement in Galatians 2: 9 '..that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision..' is not referring to a location, but to a people." Wayne is simply wrong here -- the interconnectedness of ancient peoples with their lands makes a referral to "the heathen" the same as saying that they would go to their land and does not make any statements about exclusive rights for preaching subjects in this regard. Moreover, the meaning and the context is established by Gal. 1:16, which is the original verse referring to preaching "among" the heathen (geographically).

Do us all a favor and find another house to haunt, eh? You may even see that purple cloud again. :rofl:

servant_wayne
February 23rd 2003, 12:30 PM
If you insist upon being silly or blind, that's up to you. I'm certain that others here can see that the alleged claim of Peter doesn't mean that he was to go elsewhere to preach to a non-Jew. It simply meant that he was to preach to them.

spl_cadet
February 24th 2003, 12:38 AM
02-23-2003 @ 08:30 AM
servant_wayne:
If you insist upon being silly or blind, that's up to you. I'm certain that others here can see that the alleged claim of Peter doesn't mean that he was to go elsewhere to preach to a non-Jew. It simply meant that he was to preach to them.

Erm, who are you talking about here with the going elsewhere part, St. Peter or St. Paul? Either way, they both went elsewhere (both ending up in Rome as a matter of fact).

jpholding
February 24th 2003, 12:00 PM
02-23-2003 @ 04:30 PM
servant_wayne:

If you insist upon being silly or blind, that's up to you. I'm certain that others here can see that the alleged claim of Peter doesn't mean that he was to go elsewhere to preach to a non-Jew. It simply meant that he was to preach to them.

Wow. THAT was an answer. :dunce:

Blake Reas
February 25th 2003, 09:57 PM
02-23-2003 @ 04:30 PM
servant_wayne:

If you insist upon being silly or blind, that's up to you. I'm certain that others here can see that the alleged claim of Peter doesn't mean that he was to go elsewhere to preach to a non-Jew. It simply meant that he was to preach to them.

Enlightening argument! Crack the Bible(I know you have a fear of it) and start looking up those references so you can come back and shove your foot in your mouth!

In Christ,
Blake:bonk:

servant_wayne
February 25th 2003, 10:07 PM
Hate to disappoint you, but I busy elsewhere and can't waste my time on a youth board.

djp229
February 25th 2003, 11:05 PM
Poor Wayne. Defeated again. Next!!!!

jpholding
February 26th 2003, 10:22 AM
Get used to it, all. This is the way Wayne works: The old Fart and Run.
:yipee:

servant_wayne
February 26th 2003, 10:53 AM
I'm presently engaged in several debates elsewhere. I simply don't have time to waste with people who think smiley faces are a substitution for a debate. If an adult should post a sound argument to my post, I'll respond, but I'll not reply again to a childish post.

Wayne

servant_wayne
February 26th 2003, 10:54 AM
I'm presently engaged in several debates elsewhere. I simply don't have time to waste with people who think smiley faces are a substitution for a debate. If I an adult should post a sound argument to my post, I'll respond, but I'll not reply again to a childish post.

Wayne

jpholding
February 26th 2003, 11:21 AM
Gee Wayne the whole huge messages you ignored --one from GP, one from me -- above cries out against you.

You don't have time to debate, but you do have time to tell us you don't have time to debate. :eek:

Have some smilies and wear a larger size Fruit of the Looms next time.

:bonk: :argh: :hrm: :yipee:

I'll chase you off every debate board I find you on. Just like here and just like ZLMB.

servant_wayne
February 26th 2003, 11:36 AM
I'll go back and look at them, if there is anything to them I'll reply later today.

automatthew
February 26th 2003, 07:12 PM
Wayne said:

I'll go back and look at them, if there is anything to them I'll reply later today.

What? You mean you didn't read any previous posts well enough to know whether they contained any content worth answering? Hmmmmm.