Griggsy

Originally posted by zorathruster

Originally posted by Griggsy

1. I merely emphasize it as the definitive refutation of the free will argument.

2. Fr. Griggs rests in his Socratic ignorance and humble naturalism.

1. Free will I understand to imply that God allows free will which occationally contradicts "goodness" and therefore creation has evil as a part. This of course does not include "mal-occurance" such as hurricanes, floods, fires, disease which all appear to be out of the control of God. If free will allows evil to transpire, you are correct that in a heaven, it would eventually occur. Some theists get around this by the "cleansing" which takes all the evil impulses away. Getting born again - again only this time it supposedly really works and you don't sin any more.
An interesting side effect mentioned by Dennett and Shermer is that we cheat because there is great potential reward and very little potential chance of getting caught and punished. In a make believe heaven, the constant supervision of the occupants might ensure compliance with directives and rejection of sinful acts. If in a make believe heaven there is a good chance of being caught and punished, there would be a corresponding good chance that human minds would follow the directives. Heaven would then equate to a cosmic 1984. "Really Big Brother" is watching.
The current reality is that humans have a propensity to cheat and the dirth of cosmic punishments meaded out these days should give rise to greater cheating. On the other side, there are more people and better record keeping which means greater chance of being caught. Ken Lay is being punished more by the entire world hearing on the evening news that "Ken Lay, PHd is a criminal and cant be trusted" as opposed to his jaunt at Club Fed (which I can only hope is long and arduous)

2. To seek answers is honorable. It is only when we become static that we can embrace the true meaning of ignorant.

Very kind words Griggsy. I can only hope our community can form a common philosophical exchange where such ideas you have brought up can be discussed and pondered.

In previous eras, in Persia for example, all ideas, all information was exchanged and debated in great forums. It was an enlightened era where the Persians were on the fast track to world dominance. They were the only contributors to biology, anatomy, astronomy, and mathmatics for centuries. However, the introduction of Islam stunted free expression and began to impede studying the sciences. Persian civilization went from the leading source of knowledge and information to 2nd class status, they would never emerge from their quagmire that religion stuck them in. It was only through the Renaissance that European culture was able to throw off religious supression and prosper. Regretfully, our current times bode ill for continued scientific dominance. Such concepts as "home schooling" and "Intellegent Design" are ensuring our youth will be the laughing stock of the world when they have to compete. Their answer: "A magic being from outer space created humans 6000 years ago and created all the photons in mid flight from those galaxies which really aren't billions of light years away. Also, the earth is the center of the universe, the sun travels round the earth, ever once in a while can be stopped and rabbits chew the cud." When the rest of the world gets up off the floor from laughing so hard, they will point to the room that needs to be mopped and cleaned as they get back to the task of studying reality.