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God's Rule Over Obama and Trump

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  • #1

    God's Rule Over Obama and Trump

    “Praise be to the name of God forever and ever; wisdom and power are His. He changes times and seasons; He deposes kings and raises up others. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning.” –Daniel 2:20-21.

    This verse along with others establishes that governmentsand heads of government serve at God’s pleasure. So it’s a reasonable conclusion that God wanted Obama and Trump to be POTUS.

    I perceive both men as not godly men.

    My question is what is God in His sovereign plan trying toaccomplish by having these men serve as POTUS?

    Restricting myself to Christians in the USA, here are some ideasthat came to me.
    • To get them to stop looking to government to establishGod’s kingdom on earth
    • To demonstrate that the sinful rule sinfully
    • To understand that the church and government haveseparate roles and problems occur when one trespasses on the other’s turf


    Since God usually is trying to accomplish more than onething at a time, I’m sure there are more possibilities. What do you think?
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
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  • #2
    So it’s a reasonable conclusion that God wanted Obama and Trump to be POTUS.
    I think it's more appropriate to say that in God's infinite plan, He permitted them to be presidents, for better or worse.

    Matthew 5:45 "For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

    At the end of the day Obama, or Trump, are just small parentheses in history. Eventually God closes them.

    Comment

    • #3
      Several ends, I think:

      Above all, the Exaltation of Christ, and His own Glory.

      But also, in no particular order:

      The salvation of Obama
      The salvation of the current POTUS.
      The salvation of all those with whom they have to do, whom they affect, or are affected by them.
      And much more.

      Since both are Christians, they are members of the Body of Christ, and of each other - so the good of one, builds up the other, and the Body. Including us. Our good, increases theirs.

      ISTM that all that God does for the good of a single creature, is done when and as it is done, for the good of all creatures as well. No-one goes short, no-one is given an unfair advantage. And that this includes the remotest effects of each thing God does, to the latest generations. No creature is left out of account; God - AFAICS - gives the whole of His attention to each created thing, whether quarks, quasars, dinosaurs, seraphim, embryos, humans, cats, galaxies or POTUSes. God was as truly at work in the rise of the dinosaurs, as in the rise of the British Empire. Obama and Trump and all that concerned them in any way were as truly in the Mind of God when the Big Bang happened, or when Galatians was written, as they are now.

      I think you are asking for a theology of history.
      Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 01-27-2017, 12:48 AM.

      Comment

      • #4
        Although I dislike Obama and Trump as presidents, I find it odd that they are the ones that prompts you to ask "presupposing that all men in power are men that God wants in power, why would God put these clearly ungodly men in power?" I can think of many leaders, even if we restrict ourselves to just the present day, that would provoke that question much more.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
          Although I dislike Obama and Trump as presidents, I find it odd that they are the ones that prompts you to ask "presupposing that all men in power are men that God wants in power, why would God put these clearly ungodly men in power?" I can think of many leaders, even if we restrict ourselves to just the present day, that would provoke that question much more.
          Because they are POTUS and probably have more influence over my life than others that may have had more impact on the world.
          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

          Comment

          • #6
            Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
            Although I dislike Obama and Trump as presidents, I find it odd that they are the ones that prompts you to ask "presupposing that all men in power are men that God wants in power, why would God put these clearly ungodly men in power?" I can think of many leaders, even if we restrict ourselves to just the present day, that would provoke that question much more.
            Like Hitler and Stalin.

            Leon's suggestion that God permitted their leadership accords more with what I believe. This basically is the same exegetical dispute between Calvinists and Arminians on how to interpret texts that appear to suggest that God wills everything that happens, even calamities. Arminians argue that God permits these things to happen; Calvinists argue that God actually makes them happen. I admit that I have a hard time with any theology that, say, says that God is responsible for the Holocaust.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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            • #7
              Wouldn't claiming that God makes everything happen make Him the exact same as a human author? The hero and villain have no choice but to act as the writer wishes them to act.
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

              Comment

              • #8
                The verse does not say that God establishes all kings. Taken literally, it only says that he establishes at least some kings. In Daniel 2, the kings at issue are from a series of five or so different kingdoms that were part of the plan of salvation.

                It's generally not God's will for the wicked to be in charge. But if everyone in society is wicked, God doesn't have a lot of people to choose from. In wicked societies, the same book of Daniel alludes to demonic entities (the "prince of Greece," etc.) that have been given power over these regions, and which help prop up the wicked rulers. In Deuteronomy 4:19, God mentions that he has divided up all the gentile nations for the "stars," referring to false gods whom the Israelites must reject. In the New Testament we are told that we must now war against these wicked entities. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (Ephesians 6:12). When Christians actually put on the armor of God, then they are successful in this war and the result is a better form of politics. Christians in America have not been doing that lately so the devil is basically in charge of the region.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  Like Hitler and Stalin.
                  Referring to the post you responded to, I suggest that Hitler and Stalin have ceased to be current examples. We're now 72 years since the end of WWII and 64 years since the death of Stalin. I have trouble finding an impact on my life from those two. I have a lot easier time finding how my life was impacted by the Obama administration and I'm sure it will be impacted by the Trump administration.

                  I'll stick with discussing Obama and Trump. They are who I have to deal with now and what gets said might help me.

                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  Leon's suggestion that God permitted their leadership accords more with what I believe. This basically is the same exegetical dispute between Calvinists and Arminians on how to interpret texts that appear to suggest that God wills everything that happens, even calamities. Arminians argue that God permits these things to happen; Calvinists argue that God actually makes them happen. I admit that I have a hard time with any theology that, say, says that God is responsible for the Holocaust.
                  I have the same hard time as you.
                  "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                  "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                    I think you are asking for a theology of history.
                    Actually, I'm asking for help in discerning the times. I found your response too general. I agree God is working for salvation. The question for me is how is He moving to achieve His aim?

                    Here's one answer that comes to me: Generally speaking, God sees a church too comfortable and not interested in the salvation of the world. The church is too populated with "Christians in name only" who are not interested in God. Probably starting during President George W. Bush's terms and definitely during President Obama's terms, God positioned the pieces to persecute the church. The idea is to reduce the "name onlys" and get a people who are interested in serving Him for who He is and not necessarily what they can get from Him. I think during President Trump's term(s), God will finish the placement and start the persecution.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Thoughful Monk
                      To get them to stop looking to government to establishGod’s kingdom on earth
                      To demonstrate that the sinful rule sinfully
                      To understand that the church and government haveseparate roles and problems occur when one trespasses on the other’s turf
                      The first and third reasons are simply wrong. God does want the government to be his servant, and to serve as part of his kingdom. That much is discussed in Romans 13, and numerous other places. And even though the church and government have separate roles, they are supposed to be interrelated, so God isn't trying to send us that message, either.

                      I agree that sinful people rule sinfully. However, I don't see why God would especially care about sending that message. Most people already know it anyway.

                      The answer to your question is that it is NOT God's plan for things to be this way. And things will ultimately turn around in history. But until Christians start putting on the armor of God then things will stay this way.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                        Wouldn't claiming that God makes everything happen make Him the exact same as a human author? The hero and villain have no choice but to act as the writer wishes them to act.
                        An empathetic author can feel what his personalities would freely do. And - generally - gives them what he perceives to be their free will.

                        With human authors this is kind of a pious illusion on the authors' parts, but with God it isn't.

                        LIKE a human author, God has taken the choices of his characters into account.
                        http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                        Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                          Wouldn't claiming that God makes everything happen make Him the exact same as a human author?
                          God makes or allows everything to happen.
                          http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                          Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                            In wicked societies, the same book of Daniel alludes to demonic entities (the "prince of Greece," etc.) that have been given power over these regions, and which help prop up the wicked rulers.
                            I seem to recall that "prince", be it of Greece of or Persia are not demonic, but descirbe guardian angels over nations. Just as Michael was over Israel and is over the Church.
                            http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                            Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by hansgeorg
                              I seem to recall that "prince", be it of Greece of or Persia are not demonic, but descirbe guardian angels over nations. Just as Michael was over Israel and is over the Church.
                              These princes actively try to hinder God from answering prayer.

                              Daniel 10:12-13
                              Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

                              Comment

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