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The Effect of Tariffs?

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  • #1

    The Effect of Tariffs?

    Apparently, Harley Davidson has announced that it is moving enough manufacturing to Europe to manufacture European purchases in-country, bypassing the retaliatory tariffs being implemented in response to Trump's tariffs. I had not actually considered this side-effect of the tariffs, but I guess it's pretty obvious. If a significant tariff is introduced, an easy way to by-pass it is to off-shore the manufacturing into the country where the goods are being purchased.

    I wonder if there are any more of these happening? Has anyone heard?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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  • #2
    ISTM that it would a lot more expensive to build and staff a whole new plant rather than pay a tariff that may or may not be ongoing. It takes billions of dollars and a lot of time to do that...
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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    • #3
      Well, they say they'll offset the cost of the tarrif themselves, rather than pass on the cost to the customer, which will be hugely expensive. However, it seems a bit of an empty threat.

      As silly as the Trump caused tarrif war is, ultimately it's going to be short term- the length of his presidency at worst, assuming he doesn't change his mind again next week & claim victory. Not sure if that will make it worth moving to Europe- unless they already have plans there & this is just moving plans along quickly.

      Comment

      • #4
        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
        ISTM that it would a lot more expensive to build and staff a whole new plant rather than pay a tariff that may or may not be ongoing. It takes billions of dollars and a lot of time to do that...
        Well, billions may be a bit high. Certainly it will take tens of millions, possibly a few hundred million. It would be some plant to cost billions. But then it probably will reduce costs long-term and eliminate uncertainties. It simply puts the manufacturing closer to the buyer. When the political landscape is going to be unstable for as many as three years...and possibly more (I certainly hope not), it may appeal to a board of directors and shareholders.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment

        • #5
          Harley-Davidson sales have been in free-fall for a while, so this may be less a shrewd business maneuver to avoid tariffs and more a desperate gamble to stay alive. Harley-Davidson doesn't have the "Made in the USA" quality they used to. They've been building overpriced junk for at least a decade, and people have stopped buying. I find it ironic that the signature "Harley rumble" that the company once tried to trademark is because their engines are garbage.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God

          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment

          • #6
            In general I'm a protectionist on trade and would set all tariffs internationally at 10% if I were proclaimed world dictator. So I don't have a problem with the notion of Trump creating tariffs in and of itself. And, indeed, as a scientist who tries to base all my political views on empirical data as much as possible, I am looking forward to seeing people do detailed economic studies on Trump's tariffs to determine the exact effects.

            However, I do have a great deal of concern when it comes to the way Trump is going about this. He's like a bull in a china shop, with randomly seizing on things and massively raising tariffs on them, without apparently much rhyme or reason. So while I'm all for supporting domestic producers and using tariffs to do that, I'm for a reasoned and consistent approach, not for an approach that seems to involve waking up one morning and deciding after reading twitter that China (or Canada, or whoever) needs to be taken down a notch and then choosing at random an item traded with China and massively raising tariffs on it and then trying to use it to score political points against China.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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            • #7
              Due to the current crisis, Trump is causing theologyweb to charge a $3/post tariff on all posts by members outside of the USA.

              Please send your fees to [email protected]

              This is legitimate. really. I promise.

              Comment

              • #8
                Harley Davidson hasn't been 'manufacturing' their bikes here in some time. They've been assembling them here, from parts from Germany, Italy, Taiwan, Japan, and Mexico.

                The original Milwaukee factory on Juneau Street is currently the company's corporate offices as well as the Harley-Davidson museum.

                Technically speaking, Harley-Davidson motorcycles sold in the United States are not actually made here, but assembled here. Harley contracts manufacturing of parts to plants located all over the world, including Germany, Italy, Taiwan, Japan, and Mexico. Those parts are then shipped to Harley factories here. And these are not just accessories, but components for engines, chassis, and wheels. Exactly what percentage of a Harley-Davidson motorcycle is American made, is not exactly known, as each model and model year is different.

                Back in 1929, Harley-Davidson contracted with a manufacturing plant in Hiroshina, Japan. Rikuo Internal Combustion Company produced actual Harley-Davidson models that carried the Harley-Davidson label, for use by Japanese military and police. Rikuo continued under contract until 1958.

                Harley-Davidson motorcycles are also made in Manaus, Brazil. The factory there opened in 1998 and continues to produce Harley models for the Brazilian market.

                In 2011, the company announced plans to open a factory in India to produce the new Street 500 & 750 models.

                Harley-Davidson has expressed interest in moving it's US-based factories overseas due to expensive employee costs. The recession of 2008 caused the company's value to drop by 43% in 2009. Harley's American rival, Polaris Industries, manufactures Indian and Victory motorcycles using an outside staffing service.

                Harley-Davidson is also seeing a shift in the overall motorcycle demographic. Riders are becoming younger. The baby-boomer market that Harley had relied on is going away. Younger riders tend to favor smaller motorcycles and place less importance on American-made products.

                So, where are Harley-Davidson motorcycles made? All over the world, actually. But those sold in America, are assembled here in the United States, using a lot of foreign made parts.



                So, all this hype about moving production "oversees" is a load of crap.
                Last edited by Cow Poke; 06-26-2018, 09:32 AM.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Harley Davidson hasn't been 'manufacturing' their bikes here in some time. They've been assembling them here, from parts from Germany, Italy, Taiwan, Japan, and Mexico.

                  The original Milwaukee factory on Juneau Street is currently the company's corporate offices as well as the Harley-Davidson museum.

                  Technically speaking, Harley-Davidson motorcycles sold in the United States are not actually made here, but assembled here. Harley contracts manufacturing of parts to plants located all over the world, including Germany, Italy, Taiwan, Japan, and Mexico. Those parts are then shipped to Harley factories here. And these are not just accessories, but components for engines, chassis, and wheels. Exactly what percentage of a Harley-Davidson motorcycle is American made, is not exactly known, as each model and model year is different.

                  Back in 1929, Harley-Davidson contracted with a manufacturing plant in Hiroshina, Japan. Rikuo Internal Combustion Company produced actual Harley-Davidson models that carried the Harley-Davidson label, for use by Japanese military and police. Rikuo continued under contract until 1958.

                  Harley-Davidson motorcycles are also made in Manaus, Brazil. The factory there opened in 1998 and continues to produce Harley models for the Brazilian market.

                  In 2011, the company announced plans to open a factory in India to produce the new Street 500 & 750 models.

                  Harley-Davidson has expressed interest in moving it's US-based factories overseas due to expensive employee costs. The recession of 2008 caused the company's value to drop by 43% in 2009. Harley's American rival, Polaris Industries, manufactures Indian and Victory motorcycles using an outside staffing service.

                  Harley-Davidson is also seeing a shift in the overall motorcycle demographic. Riders are becoming younger. The baby-boomer market that Harley had relied on is going away. Younger riders tend to favor smaller motorcycles and place less importance on American-made products.

                  So, where are Harley-Davidson motorcycles made? All over the world, actually. But those sold in America, are assembled here in the United States, using a lot of foreign made parts.


                  So, all this hype about moving production "oversees" is a load of crap.
                  I don't know of a single "car manufacturing" plant that is "manufacturing cars" in the sense you mean. They have all become "assembly" plants. They buy the parts from various suppliers and then assemble the finished vehicle. So I'm not sure that pointing this out for Harley Davidson is adding any relevant information.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    In general I'm a protectionist on trade and would set all tariffs internationally at 10% if I were proclaimed world dictator. So I don't have a problem with the notion of Trump creating tariffs in and of itself. And, indeed, as a scientist who tries to base all my political views on empirical data as much as possible, I am looking forward to seeing people do detailed economic studies on Trump's tariffs to determine the exact effects.

                    However, I do have a great deal of concern when it comes to the way Trump is going about this. He's like a bull in a china shop, with randomly seizing on things and massively raising tariffs on them, without apparently much rhyme or reason. So while I'm all for supporting domestic producers and using tariffs to do that, I'm for a reasoned and consistent approach, not for an approach that seems to involve waking up one morning and deciding after reading twitter that China (or Canada, or whoever) needs to be taken down a notch and then choosing at random an item traded with China and massively raising tariffs on it and then trying to use it to score political points against China.
                    Well, the other countries are certainly taking a "reasoned" approach. They are generally applying to tariffs to goods so as to do maximal damage to states that are strong Trump supporters. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the elections. Will Trump's supporters "dig in" (like Trump likes to do) and stick with their guy, despite the economic ramifications? Or will they abandon ship when their pocket-books are sufficiently damaged?

                    The right commonly points to the economy as a massive driver. I guess we're going to see if that mantra holds true.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      I don't know of a single "car manufacturing" plant that is "manufacturing cars" in the sense you mean. They have all become "assembly" plants. They buy the parts from various suppliers and then assemble the finished vehicle. So I'm not sure that pointing this out for Harley Davidson is adding any relevant information.
                      Sure it is - HD is making it sound like they're moving a plant - they're not. They're just continuing to do what they've been doing, and what other 'car manufacturers' are doing, as well.

                      Note the part of that article that says "Harley-Davidson has expressed interest in moving it's US-based factories overseas due to expensive employee costs. The recession of 2008 caused the company's value to drop by 43% in 2009. Harley's American rival, Polaris Industries, manufactures Indian and Victory motorcycles using an outside staffing service."

                      Now they're just blaming Trump's tariffs.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        The right commonly points to the economy as a massive driver. I guess we're going to see if that mantra holds true.
                        Wait, WHAT?

                        economy stupid.jpg
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Due to the current crisis, Trump is causing theologyweb to charge a $3/post tariff on all posts by members outside of the USA.

                          Please send your fees to [email protected]

                          This is legitimate. really. I promise.
                          Send any bill for my posts to
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            Send any bill for my posts to
                            According to your post bit, you have 4,403 posts so far. times $3 = $13,209. Not sure of your exchange rate, but I will just do one-for-one Pounds for Dollars.
                            Not sure who is but that's your invoice right there.

                            Please pay your tarriff by the end of the day or Trump will have to tweet about it.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              According to your post bit, you have 4,403 posts so far. times $3 = $13,209. Not sure of your exchange rate, but I will just do one-for-one Pounds for Dollars.
                              Not sure who is but that's your invoice right there.

                              Please pay your tarriff by the end of the day or Trump will have to tweet about it.


                              Sorry Roy, it's too late...

                              tweet.jpg

                              Comment

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