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**seer** · 03-13-2017, 06:42 AM

This should be on the Theology Board too...

**Bill the Cat** · 03-13-2017, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post

Purgatory is defined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church as -

The purification process necessary to attain holiness for heaven is a process that occurs between death and the beatitude of heaven.

Argument for the Existence of Purgatory.

The Lords prayer states "Thy will [of the Father] be done in earth, as it is in heaven (Matt 6:5-15; Luke 11:1-13).
The Father's will is that of God.
God's will is impeccable (Isaiah 6:3).
Therefore the Father's will is impeccable.

What is impeccable is without fault.
What is without fault is without sin.
The Father's will is impeccable and thereby without sin.

Jesus gave Christians the Lord's prayer to show Christians the will of the Father.
The will of the Father is that Christians have an impeccable will as that of the Father (Matt 5:45, 1 Pet 1:15) and as indicated in the Lord's prayer (Matt 6:5-15; Luke 11:1-13).
What Jesus gives, is to be followed to attain heaven, for Jesus as God is the perfect teacher.

Here's where this is broken. Faith through grace is all that is required to attain heaven.

Heaven is to see God face to face as the supernatural last end of man.
To see God face to face, infers man is in God's presence.
But to be in God's presence is to live a divine life in accord with the will of God (Rom 8).
To live a divine life in accord with the will of God means those men in heaven must have an impeccable will in union with God.
Yet we are told by God that men on earth sin and thereby are not impeccable.

Men in heaven are not men on earth.

And we are told that the just man sins seven times a day (Prov 24:16).
Hence men on earth sin regularly and thereby do not have impeccable wills.

And when we die, the just are perfected in Christ. Not us but Him within us.

For man to attain the vision of God requires that man die in the state of grace.
For a man to die in the state of grace means at death, mans will is ordered by grace towards God as the object of man's supernatural love.

Which salvation purchased. When we die, we are with the Lord.

Yet man's loving of God as the supernatural last end of man does not exclude minor sins which can be committed, but which do not remove man being directed towards his true final end.
For some sins do and other sins do not bring death (1 John 5:16).
Those sins which bring death are mortal and cause man to love a creature over that of God (Rom 2:12).
Other sins do not bring death and thereby do not remove the love of God that dominates man's will (Prov 24:16, 1 John 5:16).

Sins which do not bring death are venial sins.
Sins which do bring death are mortal sins.
Men who die in the state of grace may have committed venial sins and thereby have a human will directed towards God as the true final end of man.
Yet venial sin committed by men in the state of grace infers mans will in the state of grace is not impeccable.

False. God does not hold our sins against us when we believe in Him. Therefore, those of us who sin while in the state of grace are forgiven, and do not have to wait for them to be so.

Yet final beatitude is for men who have an impeccable will in union with the Father (1 John 3:1-3).
Hence men who die in the state of grace but have committed venial sins are unfit for heaven, for the human will is not impeccable.

Nonsense. The blood of Christ covers a multitude of sins. We do not require a period of time for our sins to be burned off of us. Forgiveness is instantaneous.

Also men who die in the state of grace but have committed venial sins are unfit for hell, for the human will is correctly directed towards God as the ultimate love of man.
And hell is the false ultimate end of men who falsely love a creature above that of God when mortal sin is committed.
Hence the man who dies in the state of grace, is directed towards God, but without an impeccable will, whereby man cannot enter either heaven or hell.

False. A man who is Christ's is His indeed. He stands righteous before God covered by the blood of Christ. There is no holding area where we get "cleaned up".

Hence there is a third state, whereby those men who die in the state of grace, without an impeccable will, in which God removes any imperfection in men to prepare men for heaven.
For men who die in the state of grace are directed by God to the true ultimate end, though imperfectly with venial sin.
And God does not act to frustrate His work of grace in men, but always acts to fulfill His work of grace.
For God does not contradict His own work in men.
Hence the work of grace performed by God, commenced when men are alive, will continue in men unto the perfection of impeccability.
Thereby men who die in the state of grace are ordered towards heaven, but because of venial sin, are not fit for heaven, but are further perfected by God in a third state that is neither heaven, nor hell.
The third state after death is rightly called purgatory by the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Hence from the nature of man, venial sin and the impeccability of heaven, purgatory must exist.
Hence purgatory exists.

JM

Yeah, no.

**Sparko** · 03-13-2017, 10:30 AM

Where in the bible does it talk about saved people going to purgatory? Or mention purgatory at all?

**lee_merrill** · 03-13-2017, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

Here's where this is broken. Faith through grace is all that is required to attain heaven.

Which is not in dispute, the question is whether there is a waystation between.

And when we die, the just are perfected in Christ. Not us but Him within us.

When we die, we are with the Lord.

Yes, but in what state?

God does not hold our sins against us when we believe in Him. Therefore, those of us who sin while in the state of grace are forgiven, and do not have to wait for them to be so.

But the subject here is sanctification, not forgiveness.

There is no holding area where we get "cleaned up".

The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death. Re 2:11.

Which implies, what, if we are not victorious over sin in this life?

Blessings,
Lee

**Obsidian** · 03-13-2017, 08:08 PM

Here is a hole in your unbiblical argument:

1 Corinthians 15:52
...in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

**JohnMartin** · 03-13-2017, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

False. God does not hold our sins against us when we believe in Him. Therefore, those of us who sin while in the state of grace are forgiven, and do not have to wait for them to be so.

Yet final beatitude is for men who have an impeccable will in union with the Father (1 John 3:1-3).
Hence men who die in the state of grace but have committed venial sins are unfit for heaven, for the human will is not impeccable.

Nonsense. The blood of Christ covers a multitude of sins. We do not require a period of time for our sins to be burned off of us. Forgiveness is instantaneous.

Your statements are based upon the false notion of justification by faith alone. Faith alone theology according to the reformers as embraced by Calvinists includes the debunked theory of the double imputation theory as part of a great exchange. The theory was rather easily debunked on the Posing Problems in the Westminster confession of Faith thread -

Other problems with the double imputation theory are also taken from the same thread -

The Reformed teaching on justification is unbiblical, illogical, unrealist, anti human and requires a notion of God that is untenable.

What then is the biblical and historical teaching on justification? When we go to history we find the historical church teaches the true nature of justification in session six of the council of Trent. A part of which is presented below.

CHAPTER VII.

What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation.

For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory fits well with the nature of man, sin, atonement, God and heaven. The Reformation doctrine has many problems as shown above.

JM

**JohnMartin** · 03-13-2017, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by Sparko View Post

Where in the bible does it talk about saved people going to purgatory? Or mention purgatory at all?

Purgatory may be derived from many biblical concepts such as -

The concept of curse within the old covenant contains the notion of punishment for sin.

The principle of temporal punishment carries over into the NT, whereby such punishment is given in the form of penance for sin in this life and of not fully complete, continuing into the next life. For example, St Paul instructs the sinful man to be subject to Satan -

1 Corinthians 5:1-10King James Version (KJV)

5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

The temporal punishment for fornication is the destruction of the flesh by Satan. The man suffers punishment under the authority of the Church, through St Paul, who issues the instruction to be carried out so the man may be saved on the final day.

Dave Armstrong also has a good article entitled 25 Bible Passages on Purgatory. Some of the passages are -

Psalm 66:12 Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.

This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen [4] and St. Ambrose, [5] who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (see also Isaiah 1:25-26)

The temporal punishment for sin carries into the next life where Christians are tested by fire before entering into heaven -

Lord, rebuke me not in Your indignation, nor correct me in Your anger [Psalm 38:1]. . . . In this life may You cleanse me and make me such that I have no need of the corrective fire, which is for those who are saved, but as if by fire . . . For it is said: He shall be saved, but as if by fire [1 Corinthians 3:15]. And because it is said that he shall be saved, little is thought of that fire. Yet plainly, though we be saved by fire, that fire will be more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life. [30]

There is plenty of biblical evidence for purgatory.

JM

**Christianbookworm** · 03-13-2017, 09:12 PM

Let's see. Justification, sanctification, and glorification. I was saved, am being saved, will be saved. Santification is the part that requires some effort from us.

**Obsidian** · 03-13-2017, 09:27 PM

The Bible specifically says that glorification happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. The Bible is God's word. God doesn't lie. Hence, the Catholic Church is lying to you.

**Christianbookworm** · 03-13-2017, 10:13 PM

I guess he's claiming that sanctification still occurs after death?

**KingsGambit** · 03-13-2017, 10:18 PM

Some Protestants hold to purgatory, such as John Stackhouse and Jerry Walls. I lean against it myself, largely because of the Scripture Obsidian mentioned.

**JohnMartin** · 03-13-2017, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post

I guess he's claiming that sanctification still occurs after death?

Both sanctification and purgation occur after death. Sanctification occurs by aligning the human will with the divine, to make the human will impeccable. Purgation occurs to satisfy the temporal punishment due to sin as founded in the OT and NT, based upon the nature of the moral act.

JM

**JohnMartin** · 03-13-2017, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

Some Protestants hold to purgatory, such as John Stackhouse and Jerry Walls. I lean against it myself, largely because of the Scripture Obsidian mentioned.

Purgatory is not required under the Reformed understanding of justification. Then again the Reformed understanding of justification is full of irresolvable problems. The fact that some Protestants hold to purgatory is further evidence for the problematic nature of Protestantism. The distinct lack of consensus on multiple doctrines within Protestantism is a strong indication as to the error of private interpretation.

JM

**JohnMartin** · 03-13-2017, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by Obsidian View Post

The Bible specifically says that glorification happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. The Bible is God's word. God doesn't lie. Hence, the Catholic Church is lying to you.

The bible has much to say about an intermediate state between death and heaven. The RCC is not lying to me. The principle of private interpretation of a text to arrive at doctrine is an error. Protestants deny the authority of the Catholic magisterium to define doctrine, then Protestants do what they deny the RCC has the power to do - define binding doctrine on the faithful. Protestantism then must substitute their own pseudo magisterial authority of the individual, or perhaps of a select number of believers in a denomination to hold to doctrines they think have been revealed as known through a process of private interpretation of a text.

Then again Protestantism has no authority from the individual believers, or from denominations and has no principle from the bible that teaches private interpretation is the means by which a Christian attains Christian doctrine.

JM

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