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The Apologetics of Confrontation and Anger

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  • The Apologetics of Confrontation and Anger

    I am curious about a dynamic I see all around me, here as well in the U.S. and the world at large. There is a flavor of anger and confrontation to the apologetics I see both here and elsewhere. I recognize that many atheists likewise have a confrontational approach to dealing with theists, and I wish I could apologize on behalf of all of them. There are times I think most atheists are just angry ex-theists that have not completely let go of their original worldview.

    But if the goal of apologetics is to explain the faith, and convey the message of Christ risen, does a confrontational and angry apologetic EVER successfully convey the spirit of Christ? The stories of Jesus convey the impression of a man who was masterful at countering skeptics without ripping into them. Only once, that I recall, did Jesus ever "lose it," and that was when he encountered the hordes disrespecting the sacred place he saw as "my father's house." Beyond that, he apparently responded evenly and creatively to the most obnoxious of challenges, creating an atmosphere of invitation to his teaching, rather than a knee-jerk reaction against it. Even when he was to be arrested to be ultimately taken to his death, the stories convey the image of a gentle-man, even healing the ear of one of his oppressors.

    Yet nowhere is there an impression that Jesus of Nazareth was a wimp. He conveys the sense of strength, self-assuredness in his faith, and concern for those who he believed would ultimately benefit from his message. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," is a powerful, masterful strategy for dealing with the situation. "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to god what is god's," is similarly powerful and masterful.

    Doesn't all the rage and confrontation achieve the exact opposite of what you want to achieve?

    I want to be clear that I do not see this from ALL people here, or even ALL the time. But it is certainly here, and with remarkable regularity.

    Thoughts...?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  • #2
    Hmm.
    C.S Lewis
    Chesterton.
    Augustine.
    Kierkegaard.
    Lee Strobel.
    J Warner Wallace.
    I would say all of them are able to spark some serious questions. The truth is though that challenging ones worldview can be painful as a worldview is part of the identity we make for ourselves.

    I hope that helps.
    sigpic

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by TheWall View Post
      Hmm.
      C.S Lewis
      Chesterton.
      Augustine.
      Kierkegaard.
      Lee Strobel.
      J Warner Wallace.
      I would say all of them are able to spark some serious questions. The truth is though that challenging ones worldview can be painful as a worldview is part of the identity we make for ourselves.

      I hope that helps.
      I'm not speaking of the "pain" that comes from having a worldview challenged (though I have to admit I don't really find that process particularly painful - I welcome it actually). I am speaking about the angry, attacking, confrontational nature of many of the posts I find here, many of the public pronouncements by church leaders. Perhaps I used the term "apologetics" too widely. I'm thinking of the angry, mocking, posts I see that abound here. More publicly I'm talking about the language of "godless, baby killing, liberals" and "atheist scum" and the list goes on.

      During one of the presidential debates, I watched it in a streaming format and had the comments turned on. The stream of abuse and vulgarities I saw from BOTH sides was mind-numbing and depressing. But what REALLY caught my eye was the ones that had a religious theme to them. "God will crush your baby killing souls, you &^%& liberal swine" and so forth. Then I engage in discussions here, and follow the threads, and I see similar energy (fortunately, the mods don't tolerate the vulgarity, so that is left out).

      I am all for spirited debate. But do the personal attacks EVER achieve anything? The people you listed were strong apologists for the Christian faith. I don't recall ever reading anything by any of them that I would describe as "vitriolic." Today, however, it appears to me to be common fare...
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #4
        I certainly do not think that ad hominem helps anybody.
        sigpic

        Comment


        • #5
          How do you "amen" someone

          And you and I may be participating in the shortest thread in TWeb history
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #6
            There is a button on the bottom of pist that says amen.
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TheWall View Post
              I certainly do not think that ad hominem helps anybody.
              Ad hominem ≠ insult ≠ vulgarity ≠ disparagement.
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                There is a flavor of anger and confrontation
                Confrontation is duty! Submit, godless one!!!

                We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
                Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Let's tear apart BS here:

                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  But if the goal of apologetics is to explain the faith, and convey the message of Christ risen, does a confrontational and angry apologetic EVER successfully convey the spirit of Christ? The stories of Jesus convey the impression of a man who was masterful at countering skeptics without ripping into them.... "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to god what is god's," is similarly powerful and masterful.


                  But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

                  “Caesar’s,” they replied.

                  Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”


                  Powerful, masterful response can go with confrontation, calling opponents 'hypocrites'.
                  Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Roy View Post
                    Ad hominem ≠ insult ≠ vulgarity ≠ disparagement.
                    An ad hominem is not equal to an insult or a disparagement? I agree it is not always vulgar - but how is it not the other two. Can to provide an example of an ad hominem that is not an insult or a disparagement?
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                      Confrontation is duty! Submit, godless one!!!

                      We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
                      Why do I have a desire to say, "Avast, me hearties!" :pirate: (there really SHOULD be a pirate emoji)
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                        Let's tear apart BS here:





                        But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

                        “Caesar’s,” they replied.

                        Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”


                        Powerful, masterful response can go with confrontation, calling opponents 'hypocrites'.
                        Guess I need to go back and reread my scriptures - I have apparently shifted my image of Jesus over the years from the reality as depicted in the gospels. Ironically, your response had the effect of reducing my respect for the Jesus of history. Have at it, then. But perhaps you might want to consider the possibility that this is a factor in the shift away from traditional Christian faiths in the U.S. Since 2007, Christians, as a share of the U.S. population, fell 7.8% to the current level of 70.6% (http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/), and the trend appears to be continuing. Increasingly, the young seem to be shifting away, citing any number of factors. I don't know about anyone else, but when I am reviled as a "godless scum," "baby-killing liberal," or "hypocrite," I do not find myself inclined to run towards those acting that way.

                        BTW - I DO recognize that this is not ALL Christians. I was specifically addressing those who feel this is a good way to conduct an apologetic. It just seems self-defeating to me.
                        Last edited by carpedm9587; 11-22-2017, 08:38 AM.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Why do I have a desire to say, "Avast, me hearties!" :pirate: (there really SHOULD be a pirate emoji)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Guess I need to go back and reread my scriptures - I have apparently shifted my image of Jesus of the years from the reality. Ironically, your response had the effect of reducing my respect for the Jesus of history. Have at it, then. But perhaps you might want to consider the possibility that this is a factor in the shift away from traditional Christian faiths in the U.S. Since 2007, Christians, as a share of the U.S. population, fell 7.8% to the current level of 70.6% (http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/), and the trend appears to be continuing. Increasingly, the young seem to be shifting away, citing any number of factors. I don't know about anyone else, but when I am reviled as a "godless scum," "baby-killing liberal," or "hypocrite," I do not find myself inclined to run towards those acting that way.
                            I haven't interacted with you much, but I thought I would bring this point up. Jesus responded like the above to the Pharisees and Sadducees, but not to sincere people who were not yet believers. The Roman centurion for example was said to have greater faith than he had seen in Israel. Harsh words seem to be reserved for those who either are insincere, or who are "on the attack". You don't seem to be in either of those two groups from what I have seen.

                            Also, different people respond to harsh words differently. Some people respect the more harsh approach, while others see it as distasteful. I'm rather blunt, but I tend to the more "soft" approach. However, I've also seen where a harsher approach is necessary.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              An ad hominem is not equal to an insult or a disparagement? I agree it is not always vulgar - but how is it not the other two. Can to provide an example of an ad hominem that is not an insult or a disparagement?
                              "Your argument is invalid because you were born in December".
                              Last edited by Roy; 11-22-2017, 08:57 AM.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                              Comment

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