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Should God Appear To Me?

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  • Should God Appear To Me?

    Does God owe you a personal appearance?

    The link can be found here.

    ----

    What if an atheist requires a personal appearance? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.*

    Many times when I ask someone who is an atheist or an agnostic what it would take to get them to change their mind, they tell me that God would need to appear to them. This sounds like something that makes sense on the face of it. After all, doesn't God want people to come to know Him? Why wouldn't He do this?

    Unfortunately, the problems with this are legion. First off, when I encounter someone like this, they are telling me that an argument would not convince them. It would take a personal experience. Therefore, any arguments that I make are ineffective to them. Somehow, these people expect me to be open to argument at the same time, which I am.

    Second, God owes us nothing if He is real. It is a presumptuous height to think God owes anyone a personal experience. God could do it, but He could just as easily strike someone with a lightning bolt. That doesn't mean that He would do it or that He should do it.

    "But doesn't God want to see me saved?"

    Yes. That doesn't mean that God will do anything to cater to you. It doesn't mean that God treats His existence like the answer to a question in Trivial Pursuit. God is not looking for people who will believe that He exists. He is looking for people who are willing to believe the truth about Him and want to know the truth about Him not just to answer an academic question, but because He really matters.*

    If you are a wife, imagine a husband who says he loves you, but when he does so, he is just going through the motions. It doesn't really mean something to you. If you are a husband, you want your wife to want to have sex with you, but husbands don't really enjoy duty sex. They'll take it because some sex beats no sex, but what they want the most is to be wanted.

    God is looking for disciples. Disciples are people who care about truth claims. They are willing to investigate. If someone is not willing to investigate, then they are not willing to be a disciple.

    Also, this would ultimately lead to chaos. For one thing, it would destroy much of free-will en masse. Not only that, imagine any number of people wanting to claim something because God told them in their personal appearance. What would a dictator do with this kind of claim? We have enough denominational differences without these appearances. How many more would we have with? Would we become an even lazier culture?

    "But Nick. You believe that in eternity, we will all have a personal appearance of God and this won't go on."

    Right. We will also be living in a world where we do not have sinful natures. As long as we have those, we will often twist everything we can to our advantage. This includes the truth of God. We have abundant evidence of people using anything to their own advantage today. How much more so with personal appearances of God being known around the world and the fact of personal appearances not in dispute?

    If you want to know if God exists, God could show Himself to you, but it's not to be expected. Granted, it has been happening to Muslims in dreams and to people like Paul, but if God isn't appearing to someone, if He is real, He has a good reason for it. It doesn't invalidate the arguments at all.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    Reminds me of Till we have faces.
    sigpic

    Comment


    • #3
      And do those atheists really want to need a change of pants? You do not want to see a theophany this side of Heaven.
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
        And do those atheists really want to need a change of pants? You do not want to see a theophany this side of Heaven.
        Just reading Ezekiel should show that.
        sigpic

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
          Does God owe you a personal appearance?

          The link can be found here.

          ----

          What if an atheist requires a personal appearance? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.*

          Many times when I ask someone who is an atheist or an agnostic what it would take to get them to change their mind, they tell me that God would need to appear to them. This sounds like something that makes sense on the face of it. After all, doesn't God want people to come to know Him? Why wouldn't He do this?

          Unfortunately, the problems with this are legion. First off, when I encounter someone like this, they are telling me that an argument would not convince them. It would take a personal experience. Therefore, any arguments that I make are ineffective to them. Somehow, these people expect me to be open to argument at the same time, which I am.

          Second, God owes us nothing if He is real. It is a presumptuous height to think God owes anyone a personal experience. God could do it, but He could just as easily strike someone with a lightning bolt. That doesn't mean that He would do it or that He should do it.

          "But doesn't God want to see me saved?"

          Yes. That doesn't mean that God will do anything to cater to you. It doesn't mean that God treats His existence like the answer to a question in Trivial Pursuit. God is not looking for people who will believe that He exists. He is looking for people who are willing to believe the truth about Him and want to know the truth about Him not just to answer an academic question, but because He really matters.*

          If you are a wife, imagine a husband who says he loves you, but when he does so, he is just going through the motions. It doesn't really mean something to you. If you are a husband, you want your wife to want to have sex with you, but husbands don't really enjoy duty sex. They'll take it because some sex beats no sex, but what they want the most is to be wanted.

          God is looking for disciples. Disciples are people who care about truth claims. They are willing to investigate. If someone is not willing to investigate, then they are not willing to be a disciple.

          Also, this would ultimately lead to chaos. For one thing, it would destroy much of free-will en masse. Not only that, imagine any number of people wanting to claim something because God told them in their personal appearance. What would a dictator do with this kind of claim? We have enough denominational differences without these appearances. How many more would we have with? Would we become an even lazier culture?

          "But Nick. You believe that in eternity, we will all have a personal appearance of God and this won't go on."

          Right. We will also be living in a world where we do not have sinful natures. As long as we have those, we will often twist everything we can to our advantage. This includes the truth of God. We have abundant evidence of people using anything to their own advantage today. How much more so with personal appearances of God being known around the world and the fact of personal appearances not in dispute?

          If you want to know if God exists, God could show Himself to you, but it's not to be expected. Granted, it has been happening to Muslims in dreams and to people like Paul, but if God isn't appearing to someone, if He is real, He has a good reason for it. It doesn't invalidate the arguments at all.

          In Christ,
          Nick Peters
          Yeah I think so. If god is just, then ones life shouldn't be dependent upon whether or not he believes god exists, god should make it absolutely known to each and every person that he exists, which being god, he should have no problem doing. You do realize that a whole lot of thinking people struggle with that question and in the end honestly don't believe. Guess where your just god is going to send them? Who ever thought up such an evil character?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Guess where your just god is going to send them?
            Not all Christians believe in eternal conscious torment (I don't, for instance)
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              Not all Christians believe in eternal conscious torment (I don't, for instance)
              Doesn't matter what kind of punishment you're talking about, although I think the bible makes it fairly explicit anyway. The point is that your god, you believe, punishes people for honestly coming to wrong conclusions. Not to mention the billions and billions of people who have lived and died never even hearing anything about your believed in god. The problem is that believers are so invested in their christian belief that they have to make up excuses for this, such as, "oh so called non-believers know god exists, they just don't want to admit to it and be lorded over by a god," or "we don't really believe in eternal torment, it's more like eternal life but without god" or some such other nonsense made up to ease their own conscience.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                Reminds me of Till we have faces.
                Why is that?
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Yeah I think so. If god is just, then ones life shouldn't be dependent upon whether or not he believes god exists, god should make it absolutely known to each and every person that he exists, which being god, he should have no problem doing. You do realize that a whole lot of thinking people struggle with that question and in the end honestly don't believe. Guess where your just god is going to send them? Who ever thought up such an evil character?
                  Apparently God does make it clear that he exists otherwise billions of us would not believe it. You don't want to believe and no matter if he did appear in front of you, you would still not believe. I went over this with Tassman in another thread. No matter what, he would just explain it away even to the point of deciding he was hallucinating rather than believe his own eyes. You would do the same. If you don't want to believe you won't. If you are open to God existing then you will find out he does. Just like I did and billions of others.

                  And you are not sent to hell for not believing but because you are a sinner.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Apparently God does make it clear that he exists otherwise billions of us would not believe it. You don't want to believe and no matter if he did appear in front of you, you would still not believe. I went over this with Tassman in another thread. No matter what, he would just explain it away even to the point of deciding he was hallucinating rather than believe his own eyes. You would do the same. If you don't want to believe you won't. If you are open to God existing then you will find out he does. Just like I did and billions of others.
                    Like I said, you have no choice but to make up excuses for the obviously nonsensical.
                    And you are not sent to hell for not believing but because you are a sinner.
                    Wrong. Apparently you need to study up a bit regarding your own religion. If we are all sinners, which, though our definitions of what sin is differs, we are, then if it were about sin we would all go to heaven, but we don't, so it's not about sin, it's about belief.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      Like I said, you have no choice but to make up excuses for the obviously nonsensical.

                      Wrong. Apparently you need to study up a bit regarding your own religion. If we are all sinners, which, though our definitions of what sin is differs, we are, then if it were about sin we would all go to heaven, but we don't, so it's not about sin, it's about belief.
                      If you were being sent to jail for committing a crime and there was this judge who would let you off if you asked him to, but you didn't believe in him, would you be going to jail because you didn't believe in the judge, or because you committed the crime?

                      Believing in God and choosing him allows you a way out of paying for your sins. But since you don't believe in him, you will pay for your sins. That simple.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        If you were being sent to jail for committing a crime and there was this judge who would let you off if you asked him to, but you didn't believe in him, would you be going to jail because you didn't believe in the judge, or because you committed the crime?

                        Believing in God and choosing him allows you a way out of paying for your sins. But since you don't believe in him, you will pay for your sins. That simple.
                        Believing in god, Believing in god! That's what it's about Sparko, stop being a dumbell. If for whatever reason one doesn't believe in the existence of this god, then that disbelief is why they are going to be punished. You don't ask a god that you don't believe exists to save you. That's one of your dumber arguments.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The demons believe that God exists and shudder. A Christian has to be a theist, but not all theists will be save, since not all theists are Christians. If someone would give you everything you needed if you just gratefully accepted their gift, it isn't their fault if you reject it and go with unmet needs for eternity.
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                            The demons believe that God exists and shudder. A Christian has to be a theist, but not all theists will be save, since not all theists are Christians. If someone would give you everything you needed if you just gratefully accepted their gift, it isn't their fault if you reject it and go with unmet needs for eternity.
                            Oh, is that what you've turned Hell into now, eternal life, but with unmet needs? Too funny! CBW, no one is giving you anything, it's an exchange, eternal life for belief. Belief is required, which of course is a dumb concept in itself because belief isn't something that one chooses willy nilly, or because they think it would be in their best interests to believe it, people either believe or they don't believe based on their assesment of the evidence.
                            Now you are not right about everything, are you? Sometimes even you get things wrong. Because you're human, you sometimes believe the wrong things. Why do you do that? Why don't you just gratefully accept what is right all the time, instead of rejecting it? Get the point?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Why is that?
                              In that book Orual wants to make a case against the gods, but when she meets them she finds she has been self serving and jealous refusing to show others her heart and face.
                              sigpic

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