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37818: Three persons, one God

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  • #1

    37818: Three persons, one God

    Originally posted by 37818
    Either there is only One God or you have two.
    Originally posted by apostoli
    You have three! Thats Tritheism, three unbegotten Gods each of whom are autotheos.
    No. I make no such profession.
    You may think you don't profess Tritheism but your posts definitely come close to advocating it!

    In your posts you insist that the Father, Son and Spirit are each God. You also insist that the Father is unbegotten, and emphatically demand that the Son is unbegotten. Though I don't remember you mentioning it, I assume you also hold that the Holy Spirit is unbegotten (does not proceed from the Father). As I understand it: That is Tritheism! Three unbegotten Gods!!!

    What your private thoughts are is your business, but if you go public as you have here at TheologyWeb, it is not sufficent for you to believe in "three unbegotten Gods who are the one unbegotten God named YHWH"! You must be able to explain it!!!

    Trinitarians believe there are three distinct hypostases (persons) who are homoousious (consubstantial). The doctrine of the homoousios explains that the Son and the Spirit are homoousios with the Father, thus each possesses theotēs (the state of being God). The Father, as the source of the "ousia" common to the three, is alone autotheos (God of himself). In regards to the Son, the homoousios is especially evident at Hebrews 1:3 & John 1:1c ("what God was/is the Word was/is" - NEB).

    Trinitarian Christians profess that there are three distinct hypostases (persons). The distinctions: the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.

    Originally posted by 37818
    I believe in three Persons who are the One God. God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit who are the one Yahweh, who is the One God.
    Has the name YHWH been replaced by the name Jesus/Yeshua? After all Philippians 2:9 would seem to indicate such.

    Question: How do you explain 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. Especially verses 24 & 28 "Then comes the end, when He [Jesus] delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He [Jesus] puts an end to all rule and all authority and power....when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him [God the Father] who put all things under Him, that God [the Father] may be all in all."

    Originally posted by 37818
    It has been said that the Trintitarians who say, "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" promote tritheism.
    http://www.compellingtruth.org/trinity-tritheism.htm
    A typical sunday school type article. It contains a couple of errors and at least one glaring omission:

    * "Jesus Christ is also referred to as God. John 1:1 states that He 'was God'."

    John 1:1 does not state that Jesus Christ "was God" - that rendition is just another example of the KJV's inadequacy (see the original preface to the KJV which admits the inadequacy of translation). The modern, conservative experts in Greek Grammar (Wallace, Mantey, Harner etc) all agree that John 1:1c is qualitative, thus it means "what God was/is the Word was/is" (NEB) or as I prefer "the Word was as God" (cp. John 12:45; 14:6-11 etc).

    * "Paul also explicitly stated "For there is one God" (1 Timothy 2:5)."

    He sure did! And each time he nominated the Father as the one God = 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 4:8. Also, note that with few exceptions, if any, when A.Paul usesy the word "God" he always means "God the Father", as chapter 1 of his letters makes plain. To A.Paul Jesus is our one Lord, and the Spirit is the one Spirit.

    * The author of the article gives no explanation of how the doctrine of the Trinity differs from Tritheism. eg: He could have mentioned what distinguishes the Father, the Son and the Spirit. I learnt that in infants school, when I was somewhere between 7 and 8 years old.
    Last edited by apostoli; 07-30-2015, 04:19 PM.
    Tags: trinity
  • #2
    • Edited by a Moderator •

    Moderated By: Zymologist


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    Last edited by Zymologist; 04-18-2017, 09:11 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by apostoli View Post
      John 1:1 does not state that Jesus Christ "was God" - that rendition is just another example of the KJV's inadequacy (see the original preface to the KJV which admits the inadequacy of translation). The modern, conservative experts in Greek Grammar (Wallace, Mantey, Harner etc) all agree that John 1:1c is qualitative, thus it means "what God was/is the Word was/is" (NEB) or as I prefer "the Word was as God" (cp. John 12:45; 14:6-11 etc).
      Check the sentence structure out. "Theos" is place at the beginning of the phrase for emphasis. "God was the Word."
      When I Survey....

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      • #4
        Originally posted by apostoli View Post
        Father, as the source of the "ousia" common to the three, is alone autotheos (God of himself). In regards to the Son, the homoousios is especially evident at Hebrews 1:3 & John 1:1c ("what God was/is the Word was/is" - NEB).

        Trinitarian Christians profess that there are three distinct hypostases (persons). The distinctions: the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.

        Has the name YHWH been replaced by the name Jesus/Yeshua? After all Philippians 2:9 would seem to indicate such.

        Question: How do you explain 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. Especially verses 24 & 28 "Then comes the end, when He [Jesus] delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He [Jesus] puts an end to all rule and all authority and power....when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him [God the Father] who put all things under Him, that God [the Father] may be all in all."

        A typical sunday school type article. It contains a couple of errors and at least one glaring omission:

        * "Jesus Christ is also referred to as God. John 1:1 states that He 'was God'."

        John 1:1 does not state that Jesus Christ "was God" - that rendition is just another example of the KJV's inadequacy (see the original preface to the KJV which admits the inadequacy of translation). The modern, conservative experts in Greek Grammar (Wallace, Mantey, Harner etc) all agree that John 1:1c is qualitative, thus it means "what God was/is the Word was/is" (NEB) or as I prefer "the Word was as God" (cp. John 12:45; 14:6-11 etc).

        * "Paul also explicitly stated "For there is one God" (1 Timothy 2:5)."

        He sure did! And each time he nominated the Father as the one God = 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 4:8. Also, note that with few exceptions, if any, when A.Paul usesy the word "God" he always means "God the Father", as chapter 1 of his letters makes plain. To A.Paul Jesus is our one Lord, and the Spirit is the one Spirit.

        * The author of the article gives no explanation of how the doctrine of the Trinity differs from Tritheism. eg: He could have mentioned what distinguishes the Father, the Son and the Spirit. I learnt that in infants school, when I was somewhere between 7 and 8 years old.
        "The context is that God's name will be glorified by Israel being blessed, and by Jerusalem being blessed. God's name resides in "Jerusalem". What is translated "by" in "by thy name" is actually the two prepositions governing "Jerusalem" and "Israel" - the Hebrew preposition "al". It usually means "on/over", and can have various other meanings. Young translates the clause, "for Thy name is called on Thy city, and on Thy people." The word "on" here may indicate support, as in "relying, supported on" (HALOT on Dan 9:18), or it may simply mean "over" (as in "Thy name is called over thy city and over thy people"). Either way, it denotes a close association between God, Israel His people, and Jerusalem, His chosen city."


        POINT OF REFERENCE        David to be over
        Last edited by Marta; 04-23-2017, 11:44 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Faber View Post
          Check the sentence structure out. "Theos" is place at the beginning of the phrase for emphasis. "God was the Word."
          I am the bread of life."

          Very significant to John 1 - 2 "He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Faber View Post
            Check the sentence structure out. "Theos" is place at the beginning of the phrase for emphasis. "God was the Word."
            If you read John 1 - and then read Paul's comment to this, you will find that the wording is a little different but meant to be the same.

            Colossians 1:16, 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation
            Last edited by Marta; 04-24-2017, 12:24 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Faber View Post
              Check the sentence structure out. "Theos" is place at the beginning of the phrase for emphasis. "God was the Word."

              Comment

              • #8
                Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                You may think you don't profess Tritheism but your posts definitely come close to advocating it!

                In your posts you insist that the Father, Son and Spirit are each God. You also insist that the Father is unbegotten, and emphatically demand that the Son is unbegotten. Though I don't remember you mentioning it, I assume you also hold that the Holy Spirit is unbegotten (does not proceed from the Father). As I understand it: That is Tritheism! Three unbegotten Gods!!!
                The theology of the Trinity is slippery enough that I can make a plausible case for heresy for anyone who isn't simply repeating the Nicene Creed.

                Saying that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all unbegotten looks heretical because it suggests that they are independent of each other. The Eastern approach to the Trinity sees the unity as coming from the fact that the Father is the source of the entire Trinity. In such an approach saying that all three are unbegotten removes the basis for their unity, leaving us with three separate gods.

                However the Western approach tends to start with the unity of God, and see a distinction in role based on a mutual relationship. Someone taking that approach could reasonably consider being unbegotten to be a property of the common essence, and express that relational distinction in a different way.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by hedrick View Post
                  The theology of the Trinity is slippery enough that I can make a plausible case for heresy for anyone who isn't simply repeating the Nicene Creed.

                  Saying that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all unbegotten looks heretical because it suggests that they are independent of each other. The Eastern approach to the Trinity sees the unity as coming from the fact that the Father is the source of the entire Trinity. In such an approach saying that all three are unbegotten removes the basis for their unity, leaving us with three separate gods.

                  However the Western approach tends to start with the unity of God, and see a distinction in role based on a mutual relationship. Someone taking that approach could reasonably consider being unbegotten to be a property of the common essence, and express that relational distinction in a different way.
                  Are you saying that the Western approach on the theology of the Trinity entails tritheism (a belief in three gods) where as, the Eastern approach the same theology as being more unified?

                  "We should take note of the distinction between the "generative" procession that consititutes the Son, and the "spirative" procession that constitutes the Holy Spirit. As St. Thomas Aquinas explains, and Scripture reveals, the Son is uniquely "begotten" of the Father (cf. John 3:16; 1:18). He is also said to proceed from the Father as "the Word" in John 1:1. This "generative" procession is one of "begetting," but not in the same way a dog "begets" a dog, or a human being "begets" a human being. This is an intellectual "begetting," and fittingly so, as a "word" proceeds from the knower while, at the same time remaining in the knower. Thus, this procession or begetting of the Son occurs within the inner life of God. There are not "two beings" involved; rather, two persons relationally distinct, while ever-remaining one in being.

                  The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, but not in a generative sense; rather, in a spiration. "Spiration" comes from the Latin word for "spirit" or "breath." Jesus "breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit..." (John 20:22). Scripture reveals the Holy Spirit as pertaining to "God's love [that] has been poured into our hearts" in Romans 5:5, and as flowing out of and identified with the reciprocating love of the Father for the Son and the Son for the Father (John 15:26; Rev. 22:1-2). Thus, the Holy Spirit's procession is not intellecual and generative, but has its origin in God's will and in the ultimate act of the will, which is love." Explaining the Trinity

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Marta View Post
                    So if the Son is in the image of the invisible God and the firstborn over all creation - where does that phrase put Genesis 1, "27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." - Then Adam and Eve were not the "first of mankind" - Genesis 1, gives the account of the beginning of mankind "created" spiritually and Genesis 2, was the actual physical form of mankind. Like the Son - Jesus was created spiritually (The Word - the wisdom of God) and then came in the Flesh - physically. When God spoke to Abraham it was in a vision (Genesis 15) then God "appeared' in the Flesh and spoke to Abraham. (Genesis 18, "The Three Visitors,1 "The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day")
                    You're saying the Jesus was created? And part of that is that Jesus was created in the spiritual form that man would take? Am I misunderstanding you? Will you please clarify?
                    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                      You're saying the Jesus was created? And part of that is that Jesus was created in the spiritual form that man would take? Am I misunderstanding you? Will you please clarify?
                      all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold togetherGod's Glory passing .....14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                        You're saying the Jesus was created? And part of that is that Jesus was created in the spiritual form that man would take? Am I misunderstanding you? Will you please clarify?
                        You know that there have been some conflict with this part in scripture. Even speaking about revelations - Revelation 3:14 King James Version (KJV) 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Marta View Post
                          You know that there have been some conflict with this part in scripture. Even speaking about revelations - Revelation 3:14 King James Version (KJV) 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
                          The beginning of the creation of God =/= first thing created, it means the start of creation. Jesus started creation = Jesus created; not that he was created.
                          Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                            The beginning of the creation of God =/= first thing created, it means the start of creation. Jesus started creation = Jesus created; not that he was created.
                            It is important to note, in the incarnation and resurrection of Jesus Christ He is in fact the beginning of the New Heaven and Earth (John 1:3; Romans 8:21-29; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5; Revelation 21:1).
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Marta View Post
                              You know that there have been some conflict with this part in scripture. Even speaking about revelations - Revelation 3:14 King James Version (KJV) 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
                              Your posts seem to be doing more obfuscation than clarification as to what you believe. Can you answer the question of your belief openly and clearly?
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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