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  • Torture

    One of the rebuttals used against the pro-torture crowd is that torture is cruel. I agree to the extent that I think a good way to determine if something is 'torture' or if it is 'interrogation' is to restrict methods to those that the interrogators are willing to endure themselves. In short, if you want to water board someone for 15 minutes you have to endure that yourself before you can administer it to others. I think nothing would solidify the definition of the term quicker than such a requirement.

    That all aside, the anti-death penalty people and the anti-torture crowd would allow for someone to spend life in prison which to me seems like a pretty major contradiction. Given the choice between 20 years in a 5x8 cell with rapists or that of spending a weekend being denied sleep and a few water boarding sessions what would you select? I'm not claiming either is a cake walk.

    The point is that I think putting an adult in a 5x8 cell for the rest of his life, surrounded by animals, away from nature, with nothing productive to do and nothing to accomplish is the absolutely worst sort of torture I can imagine. The constant fear of beating, of rape, of other degradations with no beauty, no freedom, no options - the phrase, "Give me liberty or give me death" springs to mind.

    In short, I think the anti-death penalty and anti-torture people advocate something much worse than death.
    I don't necessarily thing they're choosing the merciful option here.
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

  • #2
    I amened your last tthree paragraphs. Beyond that I am not in favor of torture, even as your first paragraph limits it.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post

      The point is that I think putting an adult in a 5x8 cell for the rest of his life, surrounded by animals, away from nature, with nothing productive to do and nothing to accomplish is the absolutely worst sort of torture I can imagine.
      sun_ajrofpbyggymdawy.jpg

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
        The point is that I think putting an adult in a 5x8 cell for the rest of his life, surrounded by animals, away from nature, with nothing productive to do and nothing to accomplish is the absolutely worst sort of torture I can imagine.
        That sounds more like an argument for prison reform than an argument in favour of the death penalty. Many people have been productive and accomplished while imprisoned - Wilde, Paine, Hope, Mallory and Cervantes, for example.
        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Roy View Post
          That sounds more like an argument for prison reform than an argument in favour of the death penalty. Many people have been productive and accomplished while imprisoned - Wilde, Paine, Hope, Mallory and Cervantes, for example.
          I think we can agree the world would be better off without those guys.
          Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
            I think we can agree the world would be better off without those guys.
            the apostle John.

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            • #7
              I'm not really using it as an argument for the death penalty.
              I just think denying the death penalty for a more humane treatment of 20 years to life in a rape box is a really funny form of sympathy.
              Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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              • #8
                Isolation isn't fun either.
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  Isolation isn't fun either.
                  Right.

                  So people who are against torture will allow isolation or imprisonment for decades.
                  I think it could be argued that corporeal punishment may be more humane in some instances.
                  I think there are some incoherent arguments being made.
                  Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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                  • #10
                    Or give nonviolent criminals a choice! Ten years of prison, or twenty lashes of a whip.
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                      I amened your last tthree paragraphs. Beyond that I am not in favor of torture, even as your first paragraph limits it.
                      How do you reconcile being against torture while at the same time allowing for decades of imprisonment and isolation?
                      Given the choice between water boarding and 20 years in prison (assault, rape, etc) most would probably pick water-boarding.

                      You may be selecting the more inhumane treatment is what I'm suggesting.
                      I don't know that to be true, it just looks that way on the surface.
                      Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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                      • #12
                        I'm strongly against torture. For me, it's the Golden Rule. I don't want to be tortured. I don't want Americans to be tortured. When we allow torture as a society, we give approval for every other country to torture any Americans they capture. A great many countries abide by the international rules that were put into place regarding torture, including the US. A great deal of international pressure is put on those that still conduct torture.

                        Would you rather be in prison for 20 years, or would you rather be subjected to excruciating torture every day for 20 years? Torture isn't automatically limited to a few days.
                        Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
                          I'm strongly against torture. For me, it's the Golden Rule. I don't want to be tortured. I don't want Americans to be tortured. When we allow torture as a society, we give approval for every other country to torture any Americans they capture. A great many countries abide by the international rules that were put into place regarding torture, including the US. A great deal of international pressure is put on those that still conduct torture.

                          Would you rather be in prison for 20 years, or would you rather be subjected to excruciating torture every day for 20 years? Torture isn't automatically limited to a few days.
                          Islamists don't follow the golden rule or international law to begin with. So your original point falls flat. The point of banning torture among civilized nations was to prevent your own people from being tortured, but that only applies to other civilized forces that keep their word. There's no reason to extend this courtesy to those who don't (and every reason to teach them why these convetions exist by torturing their soldiers).
                          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
                            I'm strongly against torture. For me, it's the Golden Rule. I don't want to be tortured. I don't want Americans to be tortured. When we allow torture as a society, we give approval for every other country to torture any Americans they capture. A great many countries abide by the international rules that were put into place regarding torture, including the US. A great deal of international pressure is put on those that still conduct torture.

                            Would you rather be in prison for 20 years, or would you rather be subjected to excruciating torture every day for 20 years? Torture isn't automatically limited to a few days.
                            I appreciate your last point but on some level it reads to me like this: Would you rather be lightly tortured for 20 years or have worse torture for 20 years?

                            I'm not for torture of anyone; however, I wonder how being locked in a 5x8 under constant threat of assault doesn't qualify and torture. I think it may just be a case of getting comfortable with a particular type of torture and not viewing it as cruel when it is very cruel. When someone says, "I'm against torture but I'm for putting people in little boxes away from sunlight for decades" it sound contradictory to me.
                            Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                              How do you reconcile being against torture while at the same time allowing for decades of imprisonment and isolation?
                              Given the choice between water boarding and 20 years in prison (assault, rape, etc) most would probably pick water-boarding.

                              You may be selecting the more inhumane treatment is what I'm suggesting.
                              I don't know that to be true, it just looks that way on the surface.
                              I do not justify it. Though I would favor the death penalty for most really violent crimes.
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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