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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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The Turing Test, Consciousness and Imago Dei

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  • The Turing Test, Consciousness and Imago Dei

    Hey guys, I’m new here, recently registered. Okay now that that’s outta the way, I wanted to bring a philosophical problem regarding consciousness, so as you see, it’s about AI and the Imago Dei. For those not familiar with the Turing Test, this is basically what it is in a nutshell:

    You have three individuals, one has to interact with two (who he/she can’t see), and writes down certain questions a human being would ask. The two individuals interrogated are a conputer and a human being. The goal of the interrogator is to be able to find a way to distinguish between the two as he/she asks the questions and receives answers (that don’t have to be true or false). If the interrogator fails to distinguish between the machine and the human being, the computer passes the test.

    The implications here is not only if the computer passes the test, will it show it can think, but that it can be said to have comsciousness like us. There are objections to the assumptions and methodologies on this Test, one is Mark Halpern who criticized the Test in an article published on The new Atlantis, but before we get into that, I wanted you guys, particularly Christians in here; to tell me what are your thoughts. Can it really be said that a machine has genuine consciousness and thus, an imago Dei, or is it mereley a simulatin. If the latter, how can you tell (epistemically)?

  • #2
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Smash Boy View Post
      Hey guys, I’m new here, recently registered. Okay now that that’s outta the way, I wanted to bring a philosophical problem regarding consciousness, so as you see, it’s about AI and the Imago Dei. For those not familiar with the Turing Test, this is basically what it is in a nutshell:

      You have three individuals, one has to interact with two (who he/she can’t see), and writes down certain questions a human being would ask. The two individuals interrogated are a conputer and a human being. The goal of the interrogator is to be able to find a way to distinguish between the two as he/she asks the questions and receives answers (that don’t have to be true or false). If the interrogator fails to distinguish between the machine and the human being, the computer passes the test.

      The implications here is not only if the computer passes the test, will it show it can think, but that it can be said to have comsciousness like us. There are objections to the assumptions and methodologies on this Test, one is Mark Halpern who criticized the Test in an article published on The new Atlantis, but before we get into that, I wanted you guys, particularly Christians in here; to tell me what are your thoughts. Can it really be said that a machine has genuine consciousness and thus, an imago Dei, or is it mereley a simulatin. If the latter, how can you tell (epistemically)?
      Many animals pass the mirror test, suggesting a lower form of consciousness, that does not mean they are created in the image of God. It is God alone who endows men with His image. And as far as I know computers do not have an immaterial spirit.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Many animals pass the mirror test, suggesting a lower form of consciousness, that does not mean they are created in the image of God. It is God alone who endows men with His image. And as far as I know computers do not have an immaterial spirit.
        Nor are humans capable of creating such a spirit.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
          Nor are humans capable of creating such a spirit.
          Exactly...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Many animals pass the mirror test, suggesting a lower form of consciousness, that does not mean they are created in the image of God. It is God alone who endows men with His image. And as far as I know computers do not have an immaterial spirit.
            So biblically speaking, they not having an immaterial spirit (ruach), they don’t have the imago Dei. Okay, fair enough. I agree, however, the fundamental question is how do we distinguish, say, an AI that displays emotion, understanding of concepts and even sexuality, from us? I’m not talking about weak AI’s (e.g: Siri), I’m talking about a strong AI (e.g: Sophia [*Although, we don’t have yet confirmation she has qualities of a strong AI to the point of being indistinguishable from a human being but let’s go with this example still]).

            Are you perhaps saying consciousness is not a legitimate criteria to endow any being with a mind as human or even have human-like properties?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Smash Boy View Post
              So biblically speaking, they not having an immaterial spirit (ruach), they don’t have the imago Dei. Okay, fair enough. I agree, however, the fundamental question is how do we distinguish, say, an AI that displays emotion, understanding of concepts and even sexuality, from us? I’m not talking about weak AI’s (e.g: Siri), I’m talking about a strong AI (e.g: Sophia [*Although, we don’t have yet confirmation she has qualities of a strong AI to the point of being indistinguishable from a human being but let’s go with this example still]).

              Are you perhaps saying consciousness is not a legitimate criteria to endow any being with a mind as human or even have human-like properties?
              Ever heard of a "philosophical zombie"? I don't personally think "strong" AI will ever get to the point of being human like to the degree many are saying, but it would at best be a "zombie". It looks and acts like a human, but isn't truly experiencing anything. At least not like humans do.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                Ever heard of a "philosophical zombie"? I don't personally think "strong" AI will ever get to the point of being human like to the degree many are saying, but it would at best be a "zombie". It looks and acts like a human, but isn't truly experiencing anything. At least not like humans do.
                Yeah, because so many of our responses are based on emotion rather than logic, and often even illogical. How can that be simulated where there are no real emotions?
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Smash Boy View Post
                  Are you perhaps saying consciousness is not a legitimate criteria to endow any being with a mind as human or even have human-like properties?
                  No, I do not think consciousness alone makes a human being. We are primarily spiritual beings in a physical "tent." So the gulf between what humans are and what animals or AIs are will never be bridged.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                    Ever heard of a "philosophical zombie"? I don't personally think "strong" AI will ever get to the point of being human like to the degree many are saying, but it would at best be a "zombie". It looks and acts like a human, but isn't truly experiencing anything. At least not like humans do.
                    I am aware of the philosophical zombie, but my follow up question to seer was that if computers or AI’s don’t have an immaterial spirit, or a soul to qualify as being a bearer of the Image of God, then we are essentially calling into question the legitimacy of our assumption that anyone that has a mind or consciousness has human like properties or are, in some way, just as human as us. But on a philosophical point of view, a human zombie can be an image bearer because although he/she isn’t conscious, he/she has the image of God. But then this becomes more a presuppositional approach rather than a more epistemic approach in which we are forced to construct a criteria to distinguish us from machines who think,act and behave and even have ‘feelings’ just like us to differentiate us even when both cases they have consciousness. That’s why I asked seer if he, in some way, calls into question our daily assumption in attributing anyone with a mind with a humanity like ours.
                    Last edited by Smash Boy; 12-18-2017, 07:47 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      No, I do not think consciousness alone makes a human being. We are primarily spiritual beings in a physical "tent." So the gulf between what humans are and what animals or AIs are will never be bridged.
                      As a Christian, I agree, but suppose you are debating a non-believer; would you solely base your responses on biblical (and sound) responses, or would you add a secular response, like the Chinese Room Argument?

                      Just to be clear, I don’t think any AI developed so far has passed the Turing Test or even if the Turing Test is a legitimate method in identifying humanity in AI’s save Sophia (but even her [or it?] she hasn’t been reported to pass the Turing test).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Smash Boy View Post
                        As a Christian, I agree, but suppose you are debating a non-believer; would you solely base your responses on biblical (and sound) responses, or would you add a secular response, like the Chinese Room Argument?
                        It has been a while since I looked at the Chinese room argument, but no, as a Christian I would argue from my worldview. Heck if you argued from a secular worldview there would be very little to distinguish us from apes. Yes we are more intelligent but that is a difference of degrees but not of kind.

                        Just to be clear, I don’t think any AI developed so far has passed the Turing Test or even if the Turing Test is a legitimate method in identifying humanity in AI’s save Sophia (but even her [or it?] she hasn’t been reported to pass the Turing test).
                        And if it passes the Turing test, then what? Human rights for AIs?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sorry I was in class, couldn’t reply on time.


                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          It has been a while since I looked at the Chinese room argument, but no, as a Christian I would argue from my worldview. Heck if you argued from a secular worldview there would be very little to distinguish us from apes. Yes we are more intelligent but that is a difference of degrees but not of kind.
                          I don’t disagree, some aspects of the Chinese Room argument do assume a physicalist approach, which I disagree, but the point is that the Chinese Room argument shows that the Turing Test has not achieved, to this day, what Alan Turing was having in mind back in the ‘50’s.



                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          And if it passes the Turing test, then what? Human rights for AIs?
                          Well now that you mentioned it, there was a news headline where the same AI (Sophia), was granted citizenship in Syria I think, and some AI enthusiasts are considering giving AI human rights; which of course, I think it’s absurd.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Smash Boy View Post
                            Well now that you mentioned it, there was a news headline where the same AI (Sophia), was granted citizenship in Syria I think, and some AI enthusiasts are considering giving AI human rights; which of course, I think it’s absurd.
                            Just as some would want it to be murder to kill and eat animals. I see it all as a dark and consistent effort to undermine the uniqueness of human beings. We are no better or different than animals, and now in this case machines.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              To me the turing test doesn't prove anything other than how gullible the person who is testing is. What fools one person might not fool someone else. Also even if the machine could pass the test, all it proves is that it can fake being intelligent. It doesn't prove that it has consciousness or can actually think for itself. It just means it is good at the Turing test.

                              Comment

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