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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Intmacy with God vs. The Evil We Experience

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  • Intmacy with God vs. The Evil We Experience

    Here is a quote from the book, Philosophy of Religion, edited by Michael Peterson, William Hasker, Bruce Reichenbach, and David Basinger on page 371. It is an excerpt from the book, Horrendous Evils and the Goodness of God, by Marilyn McCord Adams.

    Where the internal coherence of Christianity is the issue, however, it is fair to appeal to its own sort of valuables. From a Christian point of view, God is a being a greater than which cannot be conceived, a good incommensurate with both created goods and temporal evils. Likewise, the good of beatific, face-to-face intimacy with God is simply incommensurate with any merely non-transcendent goods or ills a person might experience. Thus, the good of beatific face-to-face intimacy with God would engulf (in a sense analogous to Chisholmian balancing off) even the horrendous evils humans experience in this present life here below, and overcome any prima-facie reasons the individual had to doubt whether his/her life would or could be worth living.
    Face-to-face intimacy with God (which would be in heaven) is far greater than any evil, trial, or suffering we go through. It is so much greater than the evils we experience that it would overcome any reasons a person had to doubt whether his life was worth living. I agree with this. Romans 8:18 says, "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us." Paul is saying that the glory to be revealed in us is far greater than any suffering we experience in life.
    Last edited by Jaxb; 02-13-2017, 10:10 PM.

  • #2
    I suspect that any hesychast, having experienced the uncreated light of Christ, would agree with you. Having experienced that light, the withdrawal is pretty intense, though.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    • #3
      Thanks for your post.

      I was talking with a friend about some problems I was going through. I said I wish I would have some form of encounter with the presence of God. That might not solve my problems but it would put them into perspective.
      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
        Thanks for your post.

        I was talking with a friend about some problems I was going through. I said I wish I would have some form of encounter with the presence of God. That might not solve my problems but it would put them into perspective.
        It certainly does put trials and suffering into perspective. God comforts His people. A face-to-face encounter with God in heaven will outweigh any evil that we have experienced on earth.

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        • #5
          There's a lot to be said for this. But there are limits to it. If nothing that happens on earth is commensurate with the beatific vision, why bother to do good to others on earth? Why not spend all our time trying to cultivate mystical experience?

          Jesus claimed that his mission was to establish the Kingdom (God's rule) here. (E.g., the Lord's prayer.) He also said that what we do here matters eternally. This doesn't seem consistent with saying that people's suffering here doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things. The idea that earthy suffering doesn't matter seems in some sense more Buddhist than Christian. Christianity has generally said that the world matters to God so much that he sent his son into it. Suffering is normally seen as our participation in that. If Christ's suffering isn't part of our view of the significance of suffering, I think there's a problem.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by hedrick View Post
            There's a lot to be said for this. But there are limits to it. If nothing that happens on earth is commensurate with the beatific vision, why bother to do good to others on earth? Why not spend all our time trying to cultivate mystical experience?

            Jesus claimed that his mission was to establish the Kingdom (God's rule) here. (E.g., the Lord's prayer.) He also said that what we do here matters eternally. This doesn't seem consistent with saying that people's suffering here doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things. The idea that earthy suffering doesn't matter seems in some sense more Buddhist than Christian. Christianity has generally said that the world matters to God so much that he sent his son into it. Suffering is normally seen as our participation in that. If Christ's suffering isn't part of our view of the significance of suffering, I think there's a problem.
            This world is temporary, finite, and mortal; God is permanent, infinite, and immortal. Nothing I experience on earth will ever be commensurate with the beatific vision. It doesn't mean that I should spend my time cultivating a mystical experience. A mystic experience is a gift from God and no something I can cause to happen. I should spend my time cultivating a relationship with God.

            One of Jesus' missions was to establish the Kingdom here. Part of that would include reconnecting God with man in relationship. So everything we do should help reconnect man and God. Then it would matter eternally for both ourselves and the others we help.

            Regarding suffering, I agree with your point about Christ's suffering. My experience is too much of the world and church try to deny it, relieve it, or fix it. We don't seem to be called to go through it for the growth it provides.
            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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