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    Yeah, we do chrawnus. Consciousness as any sort...

    Yeah, we do chrawnus. Consciousness as any sort of manifestation of mind in this universe for a human being doesnt appear in a fetus until after the brain forms. I dont have any problem with that as...
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    I'm speaking in terms of what can be determined...

    I'm speaking in terms of what can be determined legally and scientifically within our legal system. You cant legislate religious belief.
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    (1) we don't define person in such a way that...

    (1) we don't define person in such a way that killing a 4 year old is not murder.
    (2) It is not ONLY a legal term Sparko. The point is there is no reason to define a body without a brain as any sort...
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    you have a couple of problems there. the first is...

    you have a couple of problems there. the first is can these nascant 'brain waves' be seen as actual conscious activity. The second is that you are still 1 1/2 to 2 months in. And that doesn't change...
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    I'm wondering if you can stop avoiding the point...

    I'm wondering if you can stop avoiding the point and get to it. You can't murder a rock, or a fish, or a dog for that matter. You can only murder a person. If there is no person there yet, whatever...
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    They can be. But you can't be wrong about there...

    They can be. But you can't be wrong about there being no consciousness in the fetus before it has a brain. Consciousness is in the brain. This is the real world, not Oz.
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    Are you accidentally missing the point, or on...

    Are you accidentally missing the point, or on purpose?
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    You are only wrong in that what you are not...

    You are only wrong in that what you are not really applying innocent correctly, so your premise is false.

    Innocence doesn't technically apply to that which is not conscious and has no capacity...
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    They were not dead because the brain was still...

    They were not dead because the brain was still alive. This does not change the fact that without a brain, there is no person there. This just says we may think a brain is dead when it is not. And...
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    Sparko - this is not a simple discussion and you...

    Sparko - this is not a simple discussion and you can't reduce it to simple terms beyond a certain point. Sam is doing a good job of defining the necessary distinctions. A human person is more than...
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    That is just poor logic. Saying the zygote is a...

    That is just poor logic. Saying the zygote is a (1) human being when it may well become two or three DIFFERENT human beings is simply incorrect. At that point it is not yet a human being. And in...
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    I would say that just because aborting the fetus...

    I would say that just because aborting the fetus prior to it having conscious awareness does not make it right or good. This forming child will be a human person, of infinite worth and value, and...
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    I'm not arguing for abortion on demand. I'm...

    I'm not arguing for abortion on demand. I'm discussing onset of a human being in a developing fetus, ensoulment in religious terms - more or less.

    The only element I am comparing here is presence...
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    I dont think that is a viable definition Sparko....

    I dont think that is a viable definition Sparko. Remember twins? The zygote can be the first step in creating more than on person, and so it is not correct to say it is a human being. There are many...
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    Not important unless you are trying to pin the...

    Not important unless you are trying to pin the emergence of consciousness to some precise instant in time, which I honestly believe can ever have real meaning, any more that defining the boundary...
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    The vague area in-between is not important unless...

    The vague area in-between is not important unless we want to extend the period that we can define with certainty there is no consciousness present in the fetus. For example, before a brain develops,...
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    I will have to get back to you Chrawnus, good...

    I will have to get back to you Chrawnus, good post, but it will take time to reply with sufficient depth. But part of what you are running into with the NET is the infusion of modern conservative...
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    Life does begin at conception. Consciousness, the...

    Life does begin at conception. Consciousness, the mind, however, does not.
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    Always the sarcasm. No, that is not it either MM....

    Always the sarcasm. No, that is not it either MM. I know blue is blue, and I know the green is green. Likewise I can know when there is no consciousness, and I can know when there is. As long as the...
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    MM - I never said that. This is significant...

    MM - I never said that. This is significant misunderstanding on your part.

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    If I look at a spectrum. I can look on the right and see it is red. And I can look on the left and see it is...
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    Imagine Exodus defining that the accidental death...

    Imagine Exodus defining that the accidental death of an unborn fetus as only requiring a fine from the offending person, as opposed to a life for a life if the mother also died.

    Imagine that the...
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    CP just wants revenge for Schiff having the...

    CP just wants revenge for Schiff having the audacity to actually try to hold Trump accountable for his actions.
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    I'm not sure I believe that is a fair statement....

    I'm not sure I believe that is a fair statement. What it is can't be separated from what it can become. A fetus that has failed to develop a brain will never become a human being. And because of what...
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    I don't know how you come up with these bizarre...

    I don't know how you come up with these bizarre extrapolations that you invent out of my posts and then argue against, but it would help if you could take a little time to try to understand the...
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    A fully functioning brain is not part of any of...

    A fully functioning brain is not part of any of my points in that post. What I'm talking about there is the difference between no brain and a minimally functioning brain.
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