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    At what time? 1517 when he first posted his...

    At what time? 1517 when he first posted his theses? 1521 when he was excommunicated? Some other time? Obviously his 1535 quotation is summarizing the overall trajectory of what happened, emphasizing...
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    Still don't know why you say that. The quotation...

    Still don't know why you say that. The quotation is from 1535. If you want to know what he thought in 1517, read what he wrote in 1517.
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    I'm no expert on when he changed his mind exactly...

    I'm no expert on when he changed his mind exactly on what issues, though one would imagine that by the end of 1521, the year of his trial and excommunication, his trust in the papacy had probably...
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    That is my assessment as well.

    That is my assessment as well.
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    That sounds correct. When you read Luther's early...

    That sounds correct. When you read Luther's early works (e.g. 1517), what is your own impression of his attitude toward the Pope?
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    "Has a problem," present tense. Again, when you...

    "Has a problem," present tense. Again, when you see him in Table Talk quotations denying the Pope's authority, you're dealing with Luther's mature position almost twenty years after his...
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    If you want to establish what Luther's motives...

    If you want to establish what Luther's motives were at the time that he acted, you should read what he carefully wrote at the time that he acted, not summary statements made off-the-cuff (which is...
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    You're reading how he described his experience in...

    You're reading how he described his experience in 1535, almost twenty years after his attempts at Reform had begun, and almost 15 years after his excommunication. He does not say that he "left the...
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    Always fun to see how other people analyze the...

    Always fun to see how other people analyze the same data set! The fact that indulgences had been around for a while is not an argument for their appropriateness. But you have agreed that they were...
  10. Thread: Purgatory

    by RBerman
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    Good thoughts!

    Good thoughts!
  11. Well, sure. The question is: Would God make...

    Well, sure. The question is: Would God make someone a certain way (i.e. as an external force) and then judge them (i.e. hold them morally culpable) for being that way? As we've seen, according to...
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    Non sequitur. Once again, we are going in...

    Non sequitur. Once again, we are going in circles.

    [quote]But it is, how I defined LFW: that the causal chain began in the agent (in this case, God) rather than the causal chain beginning...
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    No argument there. The reality is that there is...

    No argument there. The reality is that there is confusion. There are some people who call themselves Christians without really understanding what that means, or should mean. The visible/invisible...
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    The phrase "invisible church" may not be helpful...

    The phrase "invisible church" may not be helpful to some, I agree. The basic concept is that God alone has perfect knowledge of who is going to heaven, and who is not. At some point, terminology...
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    Those who support Moses are actually supporting...

    Those who support Moses are actually supporting the Taliban? Ladies and gentleman, I rest my case. Have fun in your thread.
  16. There are already multiple threads going on...

    There are already multiple threads going on discussing very similar issues, so I will confine my thoughts here to the narrower question of whether Christians still have their "old nature." This...
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    At least in America, "statutory rape" means...

    At least in America, "statutory rape" means having sex with someone unqualified to give consent as an adult, usually a young teenager. Bathsheba was already married, so it's hard to see how that term...
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    As you say, Scripture is silent, so we don't know...

    As you say, Scripture is silent, so we don't know for sure. For that matter, we only know a few times that the Israelites ate, and none that they ever "relieved themselves" in the wilderness. But...
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    I don't know why you assume I have not read the...

    I don't know why you assume I have not read the Scripture. You are of course correct about the time interval between these two events, but my point was larger: Over the course of forty years in the...
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    Then the answer is, "People are not puppets, so...

    Then the answer is, "People are not puppets, so no."


    It's the same in my system, except without the constraint of describing God's will as LFW.


    The regress is not infinite; ultimately God...
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    A "reconciliation" is only necessary if you think...

    A "reconciliation" is only necessary if you think they are the same event, and you are trying to explain why the descriptions differ at various points. Instead what we have are two stories, within...
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    "Leaving vengeance to God" doesn't mean that you...

    "Leaving vengeance to God" doesn't mean that you don't pray for your sick sister.
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    First, if all you wanted to know in this thread...

    First, if all you wanted to know in this thread is whether everything is "part of God's plan," then a Christian's only answer can be, "Yes, in the sense that for each thing that has happened, at the...
  24. My point, which you seemed to have missed, is...

    My point, which you seemed to have missed, is that the falling man is not making any choices. He is being acted upon externally.
  25. I answered this same question in the other thread...

    I answered this same question in the other thread today; readers may be referred there.



    Paul is not writing 1 Corinthians to people who can see things from an omniscient God's-eye perspective....
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