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Not the point Tass, both Pixie and I believe in universal moral norms that transcend culture and time. And this is about ontology as opposed to epistemology. Such moral norms could exist even if none...

And your moral beliefs are the accidental result of where you were born. Therefore they are relative and ultimately meaningless. Yes, we are done - thanks Pixie, it's always interesting...

Pixie, in our other debate you suggested that because different cultures stumbled on the golden rule that that was evidence suggesting its universality. So why couldn't our sense of ultimate justice...

Of course, this again is the response I would expect from unrepentant sinner. After all, when it comes to the concept of God unbelievers are irrational. "The Heavens Declare the Glory of God."...

Well first, I really don't care what you define as evil. Second, it is not either or - one could be concerned and act on both issues.

Well of course Pixie, that is exactly what I would expect and unrepentant sinner to say.




But here is the real difference. Even if your sense of morality is the correct one, no one is, in...

As Jesus said, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world be lose his soul? Eternal considerations trump the temporal every time. Beside FF, I have no idea what you are getting at especially...

I'm sorry Pixie, it is you who is all over the map. Your moral beliefs are formed by culture/biology alone. Therefore what you find to be morally wrong is the result of an accident of birth. And what...

What are you talking about? I you don't even believe in God, never mind His Kingdom.

Or does God limit Himself? And I would say that God is limited in a number of ways by nature. He can not sin, He can not act against His character, I don't think He could will Himself not to exist,...

Ok, that was gracious of you.

A treat for every one! Amazing!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rV6SmY04WdE

Except we know that moral ideas exist in minds, therefore a universal moral truth would find a natural home in the mind of God.



No, not quite. When I speak of objective moral values and...

It is not time yet:

Rom.11

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to...

Why is peace and prosperity the goal? Given our history of war, dominance, control, totalitarianism and greed, I would say that others think differently. So again Tass, "better" is relative.

Yes Pixie, and that discussion did not end well for you. Your argument was built on unfounded assumptions. My last post from that exchange:



Onward...



First Pixie, I don't usually...

Well then Pixie, what would make it morally wrong? If culture/biology are not the sole agents for forming moral beliefs then what is. You keep hinting that there is standard beyond culture/biology...

Let's focus Pixie. So you agree that if you were raised as a good Hitler youth you probably would not had a problem gassing Jews - correct? Genocide may not have been so wrong to you. Right? So your...

Doug I had said: Then how can morals be absolute without God? I mean the atheist can assert it, but is there any good reason to think it is so?

So you agree with me that there is not a good reason...

Pixie, this doesn't make sense. Didn't Lenin, Mao, Stalin, Marx et al and all their followers use their brains? Did they not decide for themselves.



Pixie, what makes it morally wrong?...

Again Jim, who defines better? Stalin? Mao, Pol Pot? Kim Jung Eun? Or why would our opinion be more correct or valid than theirs?

Tass you are joking right? First, there is no morally better in a godless universe - only difference. You may personally like the present direction of certain ethical systems - but that is opinion,...

Really Pixie? That is what you came up with? The question is - what is the "right thing?" Who/what decides...

Pixie, you are not making sense. And you are not answering the question. Yes, we often think through moral question and come to conclusions - but why? As far as I can see we have two choices; 1. The...

Of course, but my moral sense was formed in the largely Christian west. So what is your point? But back to my question - if evolutionary process does not form our moral beliefs then what does?

It is not about what I find compelling or not, that is not the question - why is their ethical opinion more correct or valid than the other atheists I mentioned?



Well it's not like human...

No, the question is - what is your point? Which atheists should I read and why? Why is Michael Martin's opinion on ethics more correct or valid than Lenin's or Marx's or Nietzsche's for instance?

Really? Why not read - Mao? Lenin? Stalin? They are atheists - how did they "reason morally?"

Who defines "better" Jim?

I'm not sure. But I am sure of God's character and I do not think He would allow unnecessary suffering. He sees the big picture, we do not. He knows what He is after, we often do not. The bottom line...

Well yes, and it was your answer that began this line of reasoning.

Ok, if the evolutionary process does not form our moral beliefs then what does?

Are you joking Tass? What just happened in the last century? Did it take "Revelation" for the communists to murder millions of people in the Soviet Union, China, Cambodia? Does it take "Revelation"...

What? There are some unbelievers that are way more moral than me. And I have no problem with you having a negative emotional reaction to genocide, but in the big picture what the Hebrews did was a...

Well that is not the point for unbelievers - they don't believe in God, there is no morally superior being. Therefore what the Hebrews did was a good evolutionary strategy. And that is bad - why?

Let's put it this way, if God wanted morally free and accountable creatures then He may put Himself in a position where evil was necessary for a greater good, or at least allowing evil was necessary....

No not at all. You do not have to blurt everything to remain truthful unless what is not said changes the meaning of what was said in a significant way.

When unbelievers complain about the historical (or not so historical) accounts of genocide in the OT I have to wonder why. The Hebrews come into the land and make peace with certain tribes, and...

I didn't bring up the intuitive thing Tass, Doug did. I was just following on this point.

The point Doug is that you would not take his intuition as evidence for objective moral values. So I'm not sure why you brought this line of reasoning up. And as far as that goes, since my experience...

Ok, I think it is intuitive that God exists. Do you accept that? Besides I do believe in objective moral values, so why wouldn't their intuitive ethical sense be pointing to God rather than something...

Ok, so they have no good reason to believe it is so - that works for me.

I have no idea what you are getting at Psychic. Didn't you suggest that the universe would correct us morally? You said that the universe itself has moral guidelines as a property. What do you mean...

Well yes, if that someone if God. Not otherwise, I don't think...

Then how can morals be absolute without God? I mean the atheist can assert it, but is there any good reason to think it is so?

I'm trying to find out how or why a moral abstraction could be absolute from the atheist's point of view. What or who causes it to be absolute?

Really? Who says? The best interests if the minority, the majority, the rich the poor? The ones with power the ones without? No James there are no moral goals for societies in a godless universe...

I'm not sure what this means. The universe has moral guidelines? Rocks and gasses have a moral opinion?

Sure, but why is this abstraction absolute? Says whom?

I'm speaking of an absolute standard by which we all will be judged, that is binding on all mankind. What are you talking about?

Carrikature won't speak to me but I will respond anyway. First, there is no obligation to survive. We may desire or want to survive but how does desire translate into obligation? Second, the history...