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Jo's derail from "The Decline of Mormonism"

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  • Jo's derail from "The Decline of Mormonism"

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Sounds good...

    "SOUNDS" being the operative word. The problem with mormonism is that they change the very idea of God and Jesus into a twisted travesty of what the bible reveals. The mormon Jesus is a creation of the Father, a literal son who is brother to Satan. And the Father himself was just a man born on another planet who became God. And you believe that one day YOU can become a God and have your own planet. So your God and your Jesus are not the God of the bible. So any words claiming that your faith is based on Jesus, that he died, was buried and rose again, are speaking of a different and a false Jesus. A Jesus who is a figment of Smith's imagination and lies.
    One of the best things Joseph ever did was the creating of The Endowment. It contains profound Real Truth; though Church members have no idea what he was trying to teach them.

    Meanwhile, I no longer believe that the Jesus of any Christian is the Jesus taught in the Bible in accordance with the words Jesus taught. What is believed and taught by Christianity is beyond the mark. It is Christianity, along with all other religions, who teach a false Christ. They do not recognize it because of their iniquity. Iniquity is the belief that you are better, or chosen, above others. But "God" is not a respecter of persons. It rains on everyone; the sun shines on everyone. When we are filled with iniquity, the idols in our hearts which create the iniquity, are a stumbling block. Religion is a stumbling block. When people see what Christ taught through the eyes of their religious beliefs, they will only be able to see what supports their beliefs. They do not have the eyes to see, nor the ears to hear the message He and other True Messengers have taught through the ages. These individuals will never interfere with our free will desires to believe whatever we desire to believe. As such, they do not talk plainly...though they will use terminology of religion to give their message. By doing so, they protect the individual's free will desire to cling to religion. To be able to see and hear the message that is there for those who want to find it, whatever the world has taught you must first be given up. Parables are a common tool used. By using religious terms, two different messages can be discerned. One message is seen through the eyes of religious belief; the other completely tosses out what the world teaches. Of course, when people try to speak of the other messages, they are hated by those who choose to see only through the eyes of religion. While we can find Real Truth inside of scripture, most of what is written there is in accordance with the precepts of men. That is why what True Messengers teach gets twisted; and the real meaning and purpose for their teaching by using religious words, get lost.

    Joseph tried to teach about the war in heaven wherein it was "satan" who offered to get us back into Father's presence; but he wanted to do it his way...with the guaranty that by following him, we could get back. He also wanted the glory; usurping Father's own glory. The irony is that the members of the Church do not see that it is the Church who is making that very claim...that without her, people aren't going to be able to return to Father's presence. She tries to control everything they believe and everything that they do...thus they give the guaranty that they will be able to return to Father. The Book of Mormon actually teaches that the soul/spirit of EVERYONE....both the "good" and the "evil" immediately return to that (NOT "the") "God" who gave them life.

    Alma 40:11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
    (The Church is NOT required!!!)

    The Church does not understand her own canon; as such she doesn't believe what they teach (neither does Orthodox Christianity). The BoM is a second witness and testament of Christ. Even with both the Bible and the BoM, she still doesn't believe. Alas, they are not alone in their unbelief. No Christian believes Christ; though they say they believe IN Him, they don't believe what He taught. The Church is still under condemnation for her unbelief (See D&C 84).

    One of the biggest iniquities which Christians believe, and the LDS are in this same camp, is that because they have done the things which they have determined are required to become a Christian, that this places them above all of those who don't agree with and/or do the same things they did--thus they cannot be saved. Even the idea of being saved places them above those who are "unsaved" (in their own minds). Believing that "God" has respect for you above others, and you are thus saved, is one manifestation of how we work iniquity.

    Matthew 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
    Religion as determined by man has nothing to do with pure religion. It is completely spotted by what the world teaches about "religion".

    Joseph was told not to join ANY religion. So, why did he create another religion? Because the people once more rejected Christ (by not believing what He taught); instead, they desired religion. In order not to interfere with their free will desire to HAVE religion, Joseph gave it to them....in spades. This is the same thing Moses did. It is even what Christ did when He visited the Nephites. But because the Church sees what Christ taught through the eyes of religion, they do not see that He only gave them religion after they failed to do what He asked them to do. He gave them what they wanted.

    True Messengers, of which Christ is one who has a unique role and purpose, come from time to time with clues about OUR true identity. Christ not only gave clues about who we are, He also taught a way to create peace inside of mortality.

  • #2
    Originally posted by jo1952 View Post
    One of the best things Joseph ever did was the creating of The Endowment.
    That aside, Hi Jo! Good to see you!
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Jo, you use scripture like toilet paper. You grab just enough to do the job at hand, and leave the rest for later.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        That aside, Hi Jo! Good to see you!
        Hello Cow Poke!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          Jo, you use scripture like toilet paper. You grab just enough to do the job at hand, and leave the rest for later.
          Not really.....I just can't post everything in one post.

          One of the main things Christians don't believe about Christ is what He taught BEFORE Gethsemane and before His crucifixion:

          John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

          5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

          6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

          7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

          8 for I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.


          Instead, Christianity teaches that Christ's work was finished on the cross. Christianity also teaches that Christ died for our sins. He died BECAUSE of them; IOW, because of the iniquities of the people, they killed Him. Isaiah prophesied about this:

          Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


          Strong's dictionary explains that the use of the word "for" in the phrase "for our transgressions" (as well as the phrase "for our iniquities"--which is the belief that we are better, or chosen....in someway above others) is translated as such:

          H4480
          מִנֵּי מִנִּי מִן
          min minnı̂y minnêy
          min, min-nee', min-nay'
          For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.
          This translation assists us in being able to see and accept what Christ taught when He said that He had finished the Father's work BEFORE Gethsemane and the cross. The teaching that Christ's work was finished on the cross is a false teaching taught by false prophets; that teaching teaches a false Christ. His work had already been finished; and, He died because of our transgressions. His death does not have the ability to save us from our transgressions; He died because of them. He DID teach a way to live in peace. He did not bring peace, as is evidenced by how we don't live the way He taught. The world is certainly NOT living in peace. While He did not enforce the way He taught, He WILL set up a government which will establish peace when He returns.

          Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

          7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.


          Obviously, there hasn't even been a start to the peace that shall have no end. If anything, there has been even more hate generated through the religion created which uses His name. More often than not, those who claim His name attack those who question the doctrines and religious trappings of their "Christianity" (thus they use His name in vain). This is just another manifestation of how they don't believe Christ. He taught us methods of peace in dealing with others. The "religious" LOVE to put others down and make fun of the belief systems of those who don't agree with their own system. They have killed over it.

          Christ is giving us plenty of time for us to "repent" of the way we were living before He entered mortality the first time. The religious do plenty of "repenting"....they repent of their "sins" according to the "laws" which religions define as "sin". However, neither the religious nor the non-religious have "repented" of living their way of non-peace; which is why His message has not given us the power to create peace. He will set-up the same government which is the one that has been used worlds without end. It will finally be able to establish peace because we will be able to trust Him....He will be a truly righteous and fair Governor/administrator. Hence, every knee shall bow. We shall bow in recognition of His wisdom and worthiness of our trust. He will reign as Lord of lords, King of kings, the Prince of Peace!! That just hasn't started yet. We have first been given the chance to save ourselves from the mess we have made on earth. What He is going to save us from is our iniquities which cause us to not be able to live the method He taught.

          The Lord taught this about His church through His True Messenger, Joseph (but again, they don't believe Him as evidenced by everything that got added because they desired it):

          D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

          68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.


          Here is the Lord's take on religion:

          Isaiah 1:10 ¶Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

          11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

          12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

          13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

          14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.


          If the Jews had understood this teaching, they would have given up their religion; but they loved their religion too much and were blind to what the Lord was teaching them through His True Messenger.

          Before you comment about how some may think that that message from the Lord was ONLY to the people of Sodom and/or Gomorrah, read here (it was not what most people think...i.e., it was not about sexual sin):

          Ezekiel 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
          (Keep in mind what pure religion is....and that it is not what religion teaches is religion.)

          It is because of the traditions of our fathers taught to us about Christ that people will not be able to see and hear what Christ taught about Himself. They will choose to see through the eyes of their religious beliefs; thus will only be able to see what they want to see. They are repeating what the Jews did through their religion. While Christ did not forbid the Jews to continue practicing their religion (because that would have interfered with their free will desire to live their religion), He DID teach those words which Father wanted Him to teach....and those words taught a way to live in peace. Even after more than 2000 years, we have not been able to live that way.

          Comment


          • #6
            um Jo, if you want to preach your new religion, don't do it here. This thread is about mormonism, not whatever the heck you believe in now. It sure isn't Christianity or Mormonism. General Theistics or Comp Religion would be good places to discuss your beliefs.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              um Jo, if you want to preach your new religion, don't do it here. This thread is about mormonism, not whatever the heck you believe in now. It sure isn't Christianity or Mormonism. General Theistics or Comp Religion would be good places to discuss your beliefs.
              Yet I believe what Christ taught! What I have to say IS about Mormonism!!!! It is about ALL Christianity. Christ is a True Messenger; and has a completely unique role which is different from the rest of us. Joseph Smith was a True Messenger; the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Some of the word of God can also be found in the Bible; but it is mixed up with the precepts of men. Inasmuch as the LDS also use the Bible as their canon, I also use quotes from the Bible to support what I post. As such, where else is more appropriate to discuss the Book of Mormon and the Bible as it relates to what Joseph taught if not on the forum for the LDS Church? The LDS need to read these posts because it affects how they have interpreted what has taken place inside the LDS Church. How are they going to know to look elsewhere to discuss their own religion?

              However, if you would like to put my posts into a new thread somewhere else, please do so. Just let me know where it is.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by jo1952 View Post
                Yet I believe what Christ taught! What I have to say IS about Mormonism!!!! It is about ALL Christianity. Christ is a True Messenger; and has a completely unique role which is different from the rest of us. Joseph Smith was a True Messenger; the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Some of the word of God can also be found in the Bible; but it is mixed up with the precepts of men. Inasmuch as the LDS also use the Bible as their canon, I also use quotes from the Bible to support what I post. As such, where else is more appropriate to discuss the Book of Mormon and the Bible as it relates to what Joseph taught if not on the forum for the LDS Church? The LDS need to read these posts because it affects how they have interpreted what has taken place inside the LDS Church. How are they going to know to look elsewhere to discuss their own religion?

                However, if you would like to put my posts into a new thread somewhere else, please do so. Just let me know where it is.
                I was suggesting YOU start a new thread in either General Theistics or Comparative Religions areas. But you are going off on a tangent for this thread. And what you are claiming isn't orthodox LDS or orthodox Christianity. It is some weird religion that you and Frank came up with on your own. Which is fine, it just isn't for this thread.

                Comment


                • #9
                  jo1952 I replied to you here in a new thread:

                  http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...791#post298791
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment

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