A look at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

[mickiel]

I wanted to take a look at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, this most unusual tree. It is a very interesting thing that God has planted, and planted it " In the Mist, or the middle of things."

One Tree, that contains one fruit that holds two seperate distinct forms of Knowledge within it. A volitle mixture that humanity was predestined to eat from. And from this the knowledge production of humanity has taken its orgin, this is where it all began. And this tree has a very large root system.

From it sprang forth all of the doctrines of humanity.

And God planted it, or created it.

And that is where confusion really comes from.

Peace.

[a_Mister_Smith]

I wanted to take a look at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, this most unusual tree. It is a very interesting thing that God has planted, and planted it " In the Mist, or the middle of things."

One Tree, that contains one fruit that holds two seperate distinct forms of Knowledge within it. A volitle mixture that humanity was predestined to eat from. And from this the knowledge production of humanity has taken its orgin, this is where it all began. And this tree has a very large root system.

From it sprang forth all of the doctrines of humanity.

And God planted it, or created it.

And that is where confusion really comes from.

Peace.

So much for Paul's claim that God isn't the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33 )

Mr Smith

[mickiel]

So much for Paul's claim that God isn't the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33 )

Mr Smith

Well God didnot do the actual creating of the Tree, or the confusion, Jesus did it, but he did it under Gods direction. In John 1:3, all things were created by Jesus, nothing that has an existance came into being on its own. So Jesus actually created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Jesus is the author of it, the egnigmatic Christ is the Alpha and omega, or he is the author of everything, and he will settle everything. So Paul was merely saying that God himself didnot create the confusion of Good and Evil mixted together, it was Jesus who did that. But God directed Jesus to carry out his plan of Salvation, and Salvation is really God reproducing billions of humans to be prepared to be born again in the future. Thats all it really is. But God wanted these humans to " Be like him, Knowing Good and Evil", Gen. 3:22. He wanted human life to be a deadly mixture of the two.

So the events in the garden of Eden have been complettely misunderstood, but thats what God wanted, he wanted confusion to rein. Although God told Adam not to eat of that tree, humanity was destined to eat from it, and Jesus made sure that is exactly what occured. Gen.3:1, " Now the Serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God HAD MADE! Now anyone with intelligence knows that snakes are not more crafty than otherbeast, so this was no snake, it was satan the Devil. But notice the expression, " That God had Made", this serpent was made by Jesus. Which coincides with John 1:3, Jesus created everything that has come into being.

Now, how did the Serpent get into the garden of Eden in the first place? Did it deceive God and sneaked past him? Did it defeat all of Gods righteous Angels protecting the garden, beat up Jesus and then just walked into the garden unopposed? Of course not, he was let in, PUT there by Jesus to do exactly what he did. Now what did he do, lie and deceive the first couple? NO, he didnot, he told them the truth. Lets look at the event without the history of misinterpitation that has taught by teachers who don't know what they are talking about.

Genesis 3:1 The serpent simply says to Eve, Indeed, God has said you shallnot eat from any tree of the Garden? He simply asked her a question, in order to see what God had told them. No deception there. He simply asked her is this what God had said. She said no it was not, and told him what God had said. Eve told the devil that God said in the Day that you eat from this tree, you shall die.

Now, in verse 4, the serpent said to the woman, " You shall not SURELY die, for God KNOWS that in the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL." The serpent speaks no more. Now, where is any deception in this? They ate from the Tree and they didNOT die! They lived a very long time, much longer than humans do now. And they KNEW both Good and Evil. I don't see an immaculant illusion here, nor do I see satan using his best form of deception, this was all too easy to be satans will.

It was Jesus who created the Tree, it was Jesus who put it right in the middle of the Garden, it was Jesus who " Brought Satan into the Garden, the devil cannot enter any place like that unless God LETS him in." It is possible that the serpent was a specially prepared beast, into whom satan was allowed to extend his consciousness into. I wanted to throw that in. So all the events in Eden, in my view, were " Designed" to occur just as they did, no differently. God wanted Adam and Eves prodigy to be born into a world that was influenced by BOTH Good and Evil.

And all of humanity has been heavily influenced by this egnigmatic Tree. All of our knowledge production has come from its influence. All of it. All of our religions have come from it, ALL of them. The death that God meant when he told them they would die if they ate, couldnot have been physical death, because they lived on a very long time. It could only mean their " Spiritual Potential" would die, because Adam and Eve didnot have Gods Holy Spirit within them. And that is significant, that is were God has " Locked all men into disobedience, Rom.11:32". The world has not been given Gods Holy Spirit as a whole, only a selected few, and those few were not people who came to God of their own free will, they were called, chosen and selected. The world, from its onset, was created to live in BOTH Good and Evil, this environment was preordained. If this is misunderstood, it throws off everythingelse in the bible that you will try to learn.

Peace.

[JackC]

Well God didnot do the actual creating of the Tree, or the confusion, Jesus did it, but he did it under Gods direction. In John 1:3, all things were created by Jesus, nothing that has an existance came into being on its own. So Jesus actually created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Jesus is the author of it, the egnigmatic Christ is the Alpha and omega, or he is the author of everything, and he will settle everything. So Paul was merely saying that God himself didnot create the confusion of Good and Evil mixted together, it was Jesus who did that. But God directed Jesus to carry out his plan of Salvation, and Salvation is really God reproducing billions of humans to be prepared to be born again in the future. Thats all it really is. But God wanted these humans to " Be like him, Knowing Good and Evil", Gen. 3:22. He wanted human life to be a deadly mixture of the two.

So the events in the garden of Eden have been complettely misunderstood, but thats what God wanted, he wanted confusion to rein. Although God told Adam not to eat of that tree, humanity was destined to eat from it, and Jesus made sure that is exactly what occured. Gen.3:1, " Now the Serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God HAD MADE! Now anyone with intelligence knows that snakes are not more crafty than otherbeast, so this was no snake, it was satan the Devil. But notice the expression, " That God had Made", this serpent was made by Jesus. Which coincides with John 1:3, Jesus created everything that has come into being.

Now, how did the Serpent get into the garden of Eden in the first place? Did it deceive God and sneaked past him? Did it defeat all of Gods righteous Angels protecting the garden, beat up Jesus and then just walked into the garden unopposed? Of course not, he was let in, PUT there by Jesus to do exactly what he did. Now what did he do, lie and deceive the first couple? NO, he didnot, he told them the truth. Lets look at the event without the history of misinterpitation that has taught by teachers who don't know what they are talking about.

Genesis 3:1 The serpent simply says to Eve, Indeed, God has said you shallnot eat from any tree of the Garden? He simply asked her a question, in order to see what God had told them. No deception there. He simply asked her is this what God had said. She said no it was not, and told him what God had said. Eve told the devil that God said in the Day that you eat from this tree, you shall die.

Now, in verse 4, the serpent said to the woman, " You shall not SURELY die, for God KNOWS that in the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL." The serpent speaks no more. Now, where is any deception in this? They ate from the Tree and they didNOT die! They lived a very long time, much longer than humans do now. And they KNEW both Good and Evil. I don't see an immaculant illusion here, nor do I see satan using his best form of deception, this was all too easy to be satans will.

It was Jesus who created the Tree, it was Jesus who put it right in the middle of the Garden, it was Jesus who " Brought Satan into the Garden, the devil cannot enter any place like that unless God LETS him in." It is possible that the serpent was a specially prepared beast, into whom satan was allowed to extend his consciousness into. I wanted to throw that in. So all the events in Eden, in my view, were " Designed" to occur just as they did, no differently. God wanted Adam and Eves prodigy to be born into a world that was influenced by BOTH Good and Evil.

And all of humanity has been heavily influenced by this egnigmatic Tree. All of our knowledge production has come from its influence. All of it. All of our religions have come from it, ALL of them. The death that God meant when he told them they would die if they ate, couldnot have been physical death, because they lived on a very long time. It could only mean their " Spiritual Potential" would die, because Adam and Eve didnot have Gods Holy Spirit within them. And that is significant, that is were God has " Locked all men into disobedience, Rom.11:32". The world has not been given Gods Holy Spirit as a whole, only a selected few, and those few were not people who came to God of their own free will, they were called, chosen and selected. The world, from its onset, was created to live in BOTH Good and Evil, this environment was preordained. If this is misunderstood, it throws off everythingelse in the bible that you will try to learn.

Peace.

God is Love, yes?

May I ask where is the Love in pre-ordaining that creatures made in the image of God should suffer?

May I offer another version that I feel resonates with Love..

God, through His Begotten Son, the Image of Himself in creation, began creating.

A certain created being or beings, referred to in Holy writings as Lucifer, took it upon himself to act according to his own will, separate from the whole of creation.

And the consequence of such action is falling or separation from the Bliss of God.

Lucifer then began to work to deceive of God's creation, one creature at a time, needing others to also fall - to maintain his own delusion of self and self reliance. To perpetuate the lie.

Meanwhile, God, though the Powers of His Word manifesting through His Son, created a Garden of Eden and humanity/mankind/Adam, and placed him/them there.

There simultaneous existed fallen creatures (having been deceived by Lucifer) whom the Lamb (the part of Christ who sacrificed himself in order to redeem that part of creation that had fallen) was having difficulty redeeming, and divine humanity and all of Eden and her inhabitants, out of selfless Love thought that if these fallen creatures were brought into the Garden, where they would be exposed to the Love and Bliss of Christ, they could be redeemed.

And so according to the selfless Love of Christ that was Eden, these creatures or entities or energies came into the Garden - represented in the stories contained in Holy Writings as the fallen consciousness they brought with them - the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the deceiving Luciferic energies - the serpent.

[It is not said in Genesis that God planted the tree of knowledge in the Garden, only that it was there.]

And so it was out of Love, the Love of Christ, for the lost of creation, that the serpent and the tree of knowledge came to be in the Garden, the Garden becoming like a spiritual hospital where it was hoped that humanity would bring the stray consciousness’s and deceiving energies back into communion with Christ.

But as we know, this evil was too powerful and Eve and Adam were deceived, and they themselves fell, along with their Blissful Garden of divine Communion.

If we look at all that has happened through the Eyes of divine Love, we will see a whole different picture. We will see as Christ sees, and like Jesus, when we look upon fallen earth, we will cry "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem” and weep for all of humanity, who in selfless Love became trapped themselves in the Luciferic deception and consequential suffering.

[If I might add, what happened in the Garden cannot be explained in human language, for nothing of a spiritual nature can be expressed fully with physical forms or words. At best we can approximate with our story-telling the feeling or the spirit/energy that expresses what actually happened. This is why it is important to not get lost in the 'letter of the law' for the letter can never fully explain higher understandings. Such can only be explained by the Spirit behind them.]

[mickiel]

The events in the Garden of Eden explain Gods intent for humanity. A look at Galations 5:22-23, shows the characther of God BEFORE humanity was created. Everything that happened in the Garden, was then based on Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Gods Self Control. Those are 9 reasons that humanitys future was not based on Adam and Eves actions during that period. Our future was not based on the young couples fruits, but on Gods very Characther, not on their will, but on Gods will.

Notice again satans statement in Gen.3:5, " For God KNOWS that in the day you eat from it, you will be opened to both Good and Evil. God KNEW this. God also knew that when they were opened, that they would think that they have free will like a God has. And man has thought like that ever since. Notice what Eve saw in vs.6. She saw that this knowledge was good for food, or nurishment, a delight for the eyes, and could make one wise. That there is the orgin for all human religion and understanding. We think and believe we are making OURSELVES wise.

In vs. seven, the EYES of both Adam and Eve were opened. Listen, they were not blind before this happened, they could already see. It is NOT speaking of a physical blindness, no. They were given insight to a mixture of Good and Evil knowledge. Adam and Eve didNOT create the Knowledge of Good and Evil, it was ALREADY THERE! They didnot create satan, he was already there. Everything in their environment was ALREADY Created by Christ and planted there, or ESTABLISHED there.

Now, what was Gods REACTION to all this, he cursed the serpent, the woman and the man, and the very earth itself, and tied all of their existance together from then on. We all must be salted with this fire, or this curse, and it has lasted from then until now. The redemption and reconciliation resulting from Christ death, is what has lifted this curse and brought reconciliation between God and humanity. Again Romans 5:18, through one transgression RESULTED condemnation to ALL humans, and that is truly incredible, to hold every single human responsible for what just one human did. Just as incredible, through one act of righteousness by Christ, there RESULTED JUSTIFICATION of Life to ALL Men!

And men dare say that there is no biblical support for Universalism. Vs. 15;" But the FREE GIFT is not like the transgression, for by the transgression of the one the many died, but MUCH MORE did the GRACE of the one Man, Jesus Christ, ABOUND to the MANY!

Now, through our exposure to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, sin entered into our bloodline, Rom.3:20. That is why we all have sinned, vs.23, NOT because of our choices in life, but because we HAD NO CHOICE to begin with, we inherited this environment of Good and Evil, and we can only take so much. It does not matter how " Good" you are or how strong you are, you have sinned BECAUSE you were born into this environment.

And that is exactly why the environment of sin CANNOT condemn humanity, because we were NOT responsible for the Tree that we ate from.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

[JackC]

The events in the Garden of Eden explain Gods intent for humanity. A look at Galations 5:22-23, shows the characther of God BEFORE humanity was created. Everything that happened in the Garden, was then based on Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Gods Self Control. Those are 9 reasons that humanitys future was not based on Adam and Eves actions during that period. Our future was not based on the young couples fruits, but on Gods very Characther, not on their will, but on Gods will.

Notice again satans statement in Gen.3:5, " For God KNOWS that in the day you eat from it, you will be opened to both Good and Evil. God KNEW this. God also knew that when they were opened, that they would think that they have free will like a God has. And man has thought like that ever since. Notice what Eve saw in vs.6. She saw that this knowledge was good for food, or nurishment, a delight for the eyes, and could make one wise. That there is the orgin for all human religion and understanding. We think and believe we are making OURSELVES wise.

In vs. seven, the EYES of both Adam and Eve were opened. Listen, they were not blind before this happened, they could already see. It is NOT speaking of a physical blindness, no. They were given insight to a mixture of Good and Evil knowledge. Adam and Eve didNOT create the Knowledge of Good and Evil, it was ALREADY THERE! They didnot create satan, he was already there. Everything in their environment was ALREADY Created by Christ and planted there, or ESTABLISHED there.

Now, what was Gods REACTION to all this, he cursed the serpent, the woman and the man, and the very earth itself, and tied all of their existance together from then on. We all must be salted with this fire, or this curse, and it has lasted from then until now. The redemption and reconciliation resulting from Christ death, is what has lifted this curse and brought reconciliation between God and humanity. Again Romans 5:18, through one transgression RESULTED condemnation to ALL humans, and that is truly incredible, to hold every single human responsible for what just one human did. Just as incredible, through one act of righteousness by Christ, there RESULTED JUSTIFICATION of Life to ALL Men!

And men dare say that there is no biblical support for Universalism. Vs. 15;" But the FREE GIFT is not like the transgression, for by the transgression of the one the many died, but MUCH MORE did the GRACE of the one Man, Jesus Christ, ABOUND to the MANY!

Now, through our exposure to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, sin entered into our bloodline, Rom.3:20. That is why we all have sinned, vs.23, NOT because of our choices in life, but because we HAD NO CHOICE to begin with, we inherited this environment of Good and Evil, and we can only take so much. It does not matter how " Good" you are or how strong you are, you have sinned BECAUSE you were born into this environment.

And that is exactly why the environment of sin CANNOT condemn humanity, because we were NOT responsible for the Tree that we ate from.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

Greetings and peace to you, mickiel.

Remember that Satan is the father of lies, and that he was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. (John 8:44)

Thus nothing that came from the mouth of the serpent can be considered trust worthy.

Perhaps it requires a taste of Life to See the difference between Life and good and evil. But when Eve gave ear to the serpent, listened to the serpent, she was at that moment deceived, so what then came from her in response to what the serpent said, was a continuation of the serpent's lie.

What is the lie that Eve carried forward? What is the deception of the serpent?

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.

Eve began to consider herself and what was good for herself. She began to act with a will separate from that of the Tree of Life, from that of the Body of Christ.

Eve began to desire, to desire for herself as a creature separate from the whole of creation. Eve began to see her self as an individual, with desires and wants, and then acted on fulfilling them.

The lie is that we are separate and should satisfy the desires and passions of ourselves as separate beings.

And then when Adam and Eve both ate, what happened next? They looked at themselves and saw themselves as lacking. They saw themselves as naked, needing cover, needing clothing.

And the lie continues to be fed today. Humanity sees themselves as separate, with their own needs and desires, and we spend our existence trying to get for ourselves, trying to fill ourselves, clothe ourselves - with knowledge, with possessions, with pride, even with protection.

At the moment Eve listened to the serpent, and began to consider her self, pride entered into the Garden. [You see the father of lies takes what God says and twists it, making it about us. Look at Jesus' encounter with Satan in the wilderness.]

Deny self, take up your cross and follow Me.

These instructions of Jesus are to reverse the effects of listening to the serpent.

You brought up Galatians 5 and so why don't we look at these words of Paul more closely...

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

If we maintain a self perspective, seeing ourselves as breakers of the law or keepers of the law, and not as heirs to the kingdom, or part of the whole of creation, the Body of Christ, we will remain in bondage to sin.


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires and no longer seek for the self - no longer seeking that which appears desirable for the self, no longer seeking to protect the self, or feed the self, or get for the self.

Those belonging to Christ no longer practice the acts of sin, which are all rooted in self-seeking, but instead seek for one another, loving one another, as though we are all one and the same, because we are all One Body in Christ, not separate self-seeking individuals.

Deny self. Crucify self. Turn away from the serpent's lies, so that we may rejoin with the Tree of Life - the Body of Christ.

As we are One Body in Christ, we were One Body in the divine Adam (the Hebrew word Adam means both Mankind and the name Adam). So in Adam and his outer form Eve, we were one Soul, One Spirit.

Thus it was not one man and one woman who fell from the Garden, but all of Mankind.

Feel free to take what has been shared that feels right and discard the rest - or put it away for another day. What is important is that our understanding leads us to follow the instructions of Jesus.



Jack

[mickiel]

Everything that occured in the Garden of Eden was the exact will of God, just as everything that was in the Garden of Eden was created with Gods will. One must ask themselves is there such a thing as anything happening, that God didnot want to happen? No, there is no such thing. One must reason to themselves, is there anything that exist, that God didnot want to exist? No, there is no such thing as evolutionary existance, everything has a purpose. And everything comes from the mind of God or Christ, there are no other possibilitys.

God used both Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden to lanuch the existance of the conscious human race, and BOTH are an integral part of his plan of Salvation, you can neither remove Good or Evil from his plan, and it be considered correct. Both are a part of the ingredients of our development. From this plan, nothing will be like it was at first, so one cannot be shortsighted in the consideration of the Plan.

Notice Luke 13:18-19, Jesus teaching;" What is the Kingdom of God like, and to what shall I compare it? It is like a mustard seed which a man took and threw into his own Garden, and it grew and became a Tree." The Seed was at first a very little thing, hardly nothing, but it grew into a Tree, something totally different in existance. Its whole being changed, and it grew, or developed. The Garden of Eden is Gods own Garden, and he threw into it the seeds of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Both will grow conversely into far greater powers than they were, and when Gods purpose is finished, they will resemble nothing that we are aware of. And they are growing IN men.

The seeds were designed to make men lost, and Jesus has come to seek and to save that which was lost, Luke 19:10. The water Jesus has is what will spring up in men eternal life, he didnot come to destroy mens lives, but to save them, Luke 9:56. Just as in Adam, ALL died, so also that same ALL in Christ shall be made ALIVE!, 1 Corinth. 15:22. And this Glory of the Lord will be Revealed, and ALL FLESH will see it together, Isaiah 40:5. And God will wipe out our transgressions for his own Sake, or his own Intrest, Isaiah 43:25.

In Isaiah 45:7, God is the one who formed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, the one forming Light and creating the Darkness, causing well being and Creating calamity, or evil. He spoke" I Am the Lord who does ALL these." In vs. 8, the earth will open up and Salvation will bear fruit. But not without the purpose of the destroyer being accomplished, and God created the Destroyer to ruin things, Isaiah 54:16.

And that is the duality that is misunderstood. God created the Light that leads us, and the Darkness that blinds us. That is one reason that no weapon formed against us shall prosper, because God formed them, and controls them.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

[Tladatsi]

I wanted to take a look at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, this most unusual tree. It is a very interesting thing that God has planted, and planted it " In the Mist, or the middle of things."

One Tree, that contains one fruit that holds two seperate distinct forms of Knowledge within it. A volitle mixture that humanity was predestined to eat from. And from this the knowledge production of humanity has taken its orgin, this is where it all began. And this tree has a very large root system.

From it sprang forth all of the doctrines of humanity.

And God planted it, or created it.

And that is where confusion really comes from.

Peace.

Peace unto you Mickey the Panther,

You have read way too much into the text. The TOKOGAE was not intended for Adam or Eve to eat. Yahweh goes the lengths of warning Adam and Eve that the fruit of the TOKOGAE is poisonous and they will die if they eat it. Eating the fruit of the TOKOGAE did not give rise to any doctrines. It merely gave the knowledge need to discern good from evil to whomever eats the fruit. That is all. Like the Garden of Eden itself, the TOKOGAE was there for Yahweh's benefit, not Adam or Eve's (they were just the hired help, the gardeners).

[Tladatsi]

Everything that occured in the Garden of Eden was the exact will of God, just as everything that was in the Garden of Eden was created with Gods will.

I am sorry but you definitely wrong on that one. Yahweh clearly intended Adam and Eve NOT to eat the fruit of the TOKOGAE, yet they did. So Yahweh's will was defied almost immediately.

One must ask themselves is there such a thing as anything happening, that God did not want to happen? No, there is no such thing.

Yes, the Bibles says such things happen. Yahweh did not know or want or expect Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the TOKOGAE but they did. Yahweh did not know or want Cain to kill Abel but he did. Yahweh did not know or want the "watchers" to marry and have children with the "daughters of men" but that happened. Yahweh did not know or want the Israelites to make and worship the golden calf but that happened. I mean I could just go on and on about all of the things that Yahweh did not want to happen but did.

God used both Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden to lanuch the existance of the conscious human race, and BOTH are an integral part of his plan of Salvation, you can neither remove Good or Evil from his plan, and it be considered correct. Both are a part of the ingredients of our development. From this plan, nothing will be like it was at first, so one cannot be shortsighted in the consideration of the Plan.

Clearly Yahweh did create both good and evil, the Bible says He said He did. However it is quite clear that Yahweh did not want Adam or Eve to know about good or evil, hence the warning about the poisoned nature of the fruit of the TOKOGAE.

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=Tladatsi;2042158]I am sorry but you definitely wrong on that one. Yahweh clearly intended Adam and Eve NOT to eat the fruit of the TOKOGAE, yet they did. So Yahweh's will was defied almost immediately.



Yes, the Bibles says such things happen. Yahweh did not know or want or expect Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the TOKOGAE but they did. Yahweh did not know or want Cain to kill Abel but he did. Yahweh did not know or want the "watchers" to marry and have children with the "daughters of men" but that happened. Yahweh did not know or want the Israelites to make and worship the golden calf but that happened. I mean I could just go on and on about all of the things that Yahweh did not want to happen but did.
Quote:




If anything happens that God does not want to happen, then whatever caused it to happen, is more powerful than God. In my view, if anyone thinks that things can happen that God has not willed to happen, then there is nothing any reason can do with a mind of belief like that.

Peace.

[Tladatsi]

If anything happens that God does not want to happen, then whatever caused it to happen, is more powerful than God. In my view, if anyone thinks that things can happen that God has not willed to happen, then there is nothing any reason can do with a mind of belief like that.

Peace.

I merely point what the Bible says.

I would add that the in the cases I cited, God was certainly powerful enough to prevent those things from occurring, He was simply unaware that they were about to occur. Yahweh could certainly have stopped Adam from eating the fruit of the TOKOGAE, had He been around to do so.

[mickiel]

I merely point what the Bible says.

I would add that the in the cases I cited, God was certainly powerful enough to prevent those things from occurring, He was simply unaware that they were about to occur. Yahweh could certainly have stopped Adam from eating the fruit of the TOKOGAE, had He been around to do so.

I simply cannot believe the utter gall of thinking that an Omnipotent God, an All Powerful God, was simply " Unaware" of something.

I mean its just nothing you can do with a belief system that teachs this, its just already too far gone. No amount of reason can come from any belief Spiritually , that trys to portray that God can be uaware of something.,

Peace.

[Tladatsi]

I simply cannot believe the utter gall of thinking that an Omnipotent God, an All Powerful God, was simply " Unaware" of something.

Yet that is what the text tells us.

In Genesis 3:9 Yahweh calls out to Adam and Eve (not seeing them) "Where are you?" Yahweh clearly does not know where they are or what has happened. If Yahweh does not know the events after they had happened, He clearly did not know the events before they happened. In Genesis 4:9 Yahweh asks Cain "Where is your brother Abel?". In Genesis 4:10 Yahweh asks Cain "What have you done?". The text is quite unambiguous that Yahweh did not know some very key events.

It is on the basis of these Biblical texts that I make the statetents that I did. It may indeed require gall to read the words of the Bible as they are actually written and not as we are told they are written, but some gall can be a good thing.

I mean its just nothing you can do with a belief system that teachs this, its just already too far gone. No amount of reason can come from any belief Spiritually , that trys to portray that God can be uaware of something.,

Peace.

The belief system at work is that the Bible says what it means and means what it says. I find a very reasonable and even effective belief system.

I think it would be beneficial to our dialog to cited how you believe I have misread the text, if that is what you think I have done. Simple declarative statements of disagreement or disbelief do not contribute to an effective exchange of views.

Those are my thoughts.

[mickiel]

Yet that is what the text tells us.


I think it would be beneficial to our dialog to cited how you believe I have misread the text, if that is what you think I have done. Simple declarative statements of disagreement or disbelief do not contribute to an effective exchange of views.

Those are my thoughts.

Well its best that we do not exchange views, because I cannot reason with the unreasonable. If someone thinks that God does not know things, then my conversation cannot be understood by them.

I just don't want to waste time and words.

A good journey to you and Peace.

[spitndirt]

I wanted to take a look at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, this most unusual tree. It is a very interesting thing that God has planted, and planted it " In the Mist, or the middle of things."

One Tree, that contains one fruit that holds two seperate distinct forms of Knowledge within it. A volitle mixture that humanity was predestined to eat from. And from this the knowledge production of humanity has taken its orgin, this is where it all began. And this tree has a very large root system.

From it sprang forth all of the doctrines of humanity.

And God planted it, or created it.

And that is where confusion really comes from.

Peace.

Interesting topic. I think Eve knew good but wasn't aware that she did until she knew evil. That is, when she ate of the tree she fell from her first position - the goodness that God had created her in - and upon falling she then knew evil and that what she once knew was good. She passed from life to death in other words.

The serpent = Satan + man's flesh. Or, Satan is the voice of man's flesh. Man was certainly the 'craftiest / wisest / most subtle' creature God had made. Notice that before Eve disobeyed God's command she was overcome by the lust of her eyes (the fruit looked good) along with a desire to know what God had forbidden her to know (good and evil) - which is essentially death. God did say that '...you shall surely die...'. So, to have opened eyes and to know good and evil = death. In short, God's command can be restated as such - '...Live and do not die...'.

The question is, what caused Eve to become divided in heart. One minute she was living in the goodness that God had made - the next she was reasoning against the command of God. The answer is, Satan is directly connected to the heart of man so that when he left his appointed estate it divided Eve's heart and the voice of her flesh was awakened. Because she had no knowledge of good and evil she couldn't have known whether God's command or disobeying it was good or evil - until after the fact. So Satan was the cause....which is why he is called '...a murderer from the beginning...'.

Now, the good stuff....or what Satan meant for evil God meant for good. Jesus said '...no one is [good] but God alone...', and when speaking to the crowds in general He said '...if you who are [evil] know how to give good gifts...'. So, had Eve not eaten of the tree it would not be possible for a man to truly know God or to truly know himself. So the true knowledge of God and self became possible - and these can be known in Christ. Next, Adam and Eve were created mortal and subject to death (self evident). Now, in Christ the way to immortality is opened up to men. Some say that this was meant to happen without disobedience to God's initial command. I say that point is a moot one since that is no longer within the realm of possibilities. Next, God appeared to be external of our first parents....now, in Christ He can dwell within our hearts by His Spirit. In short, I believe the man Jesus was predestined to come in the flesh in the fullness of time to restore man to a right place before God by rectifying the disobedience of Adam through His own obedience to God's commands. In other words, it was a man who disobeyed unto death so it must be a man to obey unto life. And since both Adam and Jesus are the only two corporate representatives of humanity all have a choice whether to remain connected to Adam's sin and to death....or to be reconciled to God through Jesus's obedience and to life. In my mind the mystery of predestination is explained here. It was predetermined by God that disobedience would lead to death and that obedience would lead to life. Therefore all men are predestined either in Adam or in Jesus....and that if we look to Christ (or, to the Word of God in OT times) our default courses (death) can be changed.

Also, the tree of KOGAE would follow a pattern established in the creation of the first day. This pattern is a '...two made perfect in one...' phenomenon. The first day consisted of Light (day) and darkness (night) and were made 'ONE DAY'. Consider that NOT eating from the tree = life. Also consider the fact that Adam and Eve hadn't ate from the tree of life yet....else they would not have died when they disobeyed. I believe this tree was patterned after the first day - knowledge + life = one tree. The heart of man was created after this same pattern since it is clear that Eve's heart became divided before she disobeyed. Also the image and likeness of God have their roots in the first day pattern....as well as Adam's 'physical / spiritual' make-up - wet clay + breath = the two made perfect in one living soul. Am I making any sense at all? Another 'one' that is revealed in the creation of the first day is the heart of 'Day Star, Son of Dawn' - or, Lucifer in latin, consider Ez. 28:12-19. In this one is revealed the glory of the Son of God as well as the prefiguring of His coming in the flesh to die for the sins of the world only to be raised in victory on behalf of the world, - juxtapose Isaiah 14:12-15 and 2Pet. 1:19.

Anyway, some things for you to think on. Peace