God: 'It's not like I'm doing it for YOU'

[Turgonian]

As people may know, I was raised a Calvinist, and the disciples, pupils, and epigones of John Calvin tend to emphasize God's glory while minimizing human involvement. In reaction to current trends which stress (with more or less irresponsibility) that God wants to be there for you, God loves you, you make such a beautiful impression on God, &c., &c., &c., Calvinists cross their arms and say that God doesn't need humans (mostly avoiding the 'you'), God is a Sovereign and not a gentleman, God is mainly concerned with His own glory, &c., &c., &c. I moved away from the Calvinist emphasis, which is not very satisfying emotionally...but then I read something in Ezekiel 36 (vs. 22-23) which shocked me:

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.'"

Apparently, although God stresses His love for humans and His will ('desire', I think, is the wrong word) to save them, He is really a majestic and inscrutable God, and not some kind of infatuated superhuman. Do you have any thoughts related to this? I would especially like some comments about how you get the right balance in evangelization.

[Bill the Cat]

Um... Eze 26 only goes to vs 21. I think you meant 36. I'll edit your post for you.

[Storico]

I'm neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian. I draw beliefs from both systems, and have my own ideas as well. My thinking's this: I believe God's sovereign and Holy and Just. I believe that God loves us. I believe that we're ALL God's elect, that He wants each and every one of us to be saved and that He loves each and every one of us, and will use full Justice, whatever that may be in each case, on all of us. At the same time, that doesn't mean that although God's Just, Holy, Loving or Sovereign that we'll all want HIM. Full Calvinism, in my understanding, doesn't fully explain the role human will plays in the process of salvation. I believe God calls us, but I also believe we have to respond to that call. It's very OFTEN the case that grace is "irresistable", as Calvinism says it is, but Christians still fall from Grace and return to it again.

I see both philosophies as two sides of the same coin, really:
1 - God is Holy, Just, and Sovereign.
2 - God loves us and wants us.

1 - God calls His elect to Him, and saves them.
2 - We're all God's elect, we're all called, and those who respond are saved.

1 - God's will is that His children all come home to Him, and He makes that clear to us.
2 - Some will listen, others won't. That's where free will comes in.


My biggest concern over Calvinism is that I don't for a moment believe that Christ died for a specific, pre-set number of people, or the 'lucky few' that God selects. I believe He died for everyone. At the same time, we're not all automatically saved. We need to choose Him, but we choose Him because He first reached out to us. I don't think it's pre-determined that we WILL or WON'T choose Him -- otherwise, I can't see why it would be fair to let some of us live if we had no chance of Heaven, if God ordained some of us arbitrarily to miss out on His grace.

As for your quote, Turgonian....

Take a look at the context. Just before it, in Ezekiel 36:19-20 , we know why God did what He did:

19And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

20And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

God judged them according to their acts. They were spread through non-Israelite lands, and at this point in time, they weren't under God's grace -- they weren't even in His good graces at all. According to this story, they went out into other nations, and they profaned the name of God there. He let them go, and they let Him down. So with them or without them, and most especially through them, He was going to show the world He was Holy. In that context, the quote you showed us makes sense. I don't think it's an endorsement of Calvinism at all. It refers to a specific time and circumstance, and certainly not to the Grace of Christ.

Thoughts?

[Teluog]

I think the Ezekiel passage needs to be looked in its context.

...It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things,

I wish I could remember (and don't have the time right now to look it up), but what exactly were these things that God was going to do? Is God talking about banishing the Israelites into Babylonian captivity?

but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name,

It looks like God is going to bring justice and punish Israel for sinning so much...

I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.'

It looks like God is punishing Israel for the sake of the other nations. I don't see a tyrant God here. I see a God who is holy, just, and patient since He endured Israel's profanities for so long, and still compassionate to the surrounding nations of Israel. It's pretty clear to me that God is making an example out of a profane and corrupt Israel for the purpose of showing who God is to the other nations, for the sake of everyone else and for future generations of Israel.

[Aidios]

I don't think the two positions are mutually exclusive. When God is kind to someone, it isn't a question of whether He did it for the other person's well-being or for His own glory; He did it for both. JP Holding's written quite a bit about the use of black-and-white language in the Bible; given that there are clear affirmations elsewhere that God genuinely cares about humans, I don't think it's necessary to take this text in the absolute sense that you're suggesting.

I do believe in predestination, however.

[Philosophickle]

This is another interesting passage from just a few chapters before:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

Well, we all know why they will die- because God wants them to because of His "inscrutable" majesty.

[Turgonian]

Certainly His majesty is inscrutable...whether the Calvinists are right or wrong.