View Poll Results: What date of the Jewish Month of Nisan was this?

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Thread: On what Jewish date was that?

  1. #1
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    On what Jewish date was that?

    ". . . And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . ." -- Mark 14:12.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber arnoldo's Avatar
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    Apparently, the jewish festival of unleavened bread and passover were used interchangeably by the gospel writers.

    Luke 22:1 . . . Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnoldo View Post
    Apparently, the jewish festival of unleavened bread and passover were used interchangeably by the gospel writers.

    Luke 22:1 . . . Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
    The feast of unleavened began on the 15th of Nisan through 21st. The evening of the 15th is when the Jews eat the Passover. The evening precedes the day.
    Last edited by 37818; 03-25-2016 at 08:13 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  4. #4
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The evening precedes the day.
    Confusing. Don't you mean sundown? The word "evening" is a span of time, not a moment, right?
    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

    [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
    Confusing. Don't you mean sundown? The word "evening" is a span of time, not a moment, right?
    Technically, the word translated "evening" means "late." I understand it being used meaning past sun down in the contexts.
    ". . . And at even, when the sun did set, . . ." -- Mark 1:32. In any rate it denotes the ending of the current day and the beginning of the next in Jewish reckoning. The Jews would eat the Passover the evening of the 15th of Nisan.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    If Mark 14:12 was on the 14h of Nisan that would mean Jesus and his disciples eat the Passover in the evening of the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:16-18). Thus making the day of His crucifixion on the 15th.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  7. #7
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    If Mark 14:12 was on the 14h of Nisan that would mean Jesus and his disciples eat the Passover in the evening of the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:16-18). Thus making the day of His crucifixion on the 15th.
    What's confusing to Bible Scholars is that Jesus and the disciples held their seder at least one day before the Jewish leaders did. Possibly as early as Tuesday evening after sunset (Which would be Wednesday, 12 Nisan). Some groups, including the Essenes and those adhering to the Jubilee calendar, always celebrated the Passover feast Tuesday evening/Wednesday morning every year. It probably helped alleviate the crowds on the day of the Passover sacrifices.

  8. #8
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    What's confusing to Bible Scholars is that Jesus and the disciples held their seder at least one day before the Jewish leaders did. Possibly as early as Tuesday evening after sunset (Which would be Wednesday, 12 Nisan). Some groups, including the Essenes and those adhering to the Jubilee calendar, always celebrated the Passover feast Tuesday evening/Wednesday morning every year. It probably helped alleviate the crowds on the day of the Passover sacrifices.
    On what basis? What is the earliest citation for this?
    Last edited by 37818; 03-26-2016 at 08:10 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  9. #9
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    Let me first make it clear, the writings of the early church fathers are not inspired Scripture. Not only that, but some of the early writings intentionally push false teachings. But these writings contain the beliefs and traditions of the earliest church.

    Then our Lord said unto us, "Verily I say unto you, yet a little while, and ye shall leave Me, for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of His flock shall be scattered." And Judas came with the scribes and with the priests of the people, and delivered up our Lord Jesus. But this was on Wednesday, for when we had eaten the Passover on Tuesday in the evening, we went out to the Mount of Olives, and in the night they took our Lord Jesus; and on the next day, which was Wednesday, He remained in prison in the house of Cepha the High Priest. In that day the chiefs of the people were assembled, and they took counsel together against Him. Again, the next day, which was Thursday, they brought Him to Pilate the governor, and again He remained in prison with Pilate, in the night after Thursday. And when it dawned on Friday, they accused Him much before Pilate, yet they could show nothing true, but they brought false witness against Him. And they asked Him from Pilate, to put Him to death, and they crucified Him on Friday. Didascalia Apostolorum, trans. by Margaret Dunlop Gibson M.R.A.S.; LL.D. (St Andrews); The Didascalia Apostolorum in English. (London; C. J. Clay and Sons; Cambridge University Press Warehouse; Ave Maria Lane; 1903), 94. Cepha is Caiaphas.)
    And the priests and the elders (S. + considered and) commanded (S. + and decreed) that they should keep the feast with haste, that they might take Him without tumult; for the people of Jerusalem were occupied in the sacrifice and the eating of the Passover, and all the people from without had not yet come, because they deceived them [about] the days, that they might be reproved before God that they were greatly mistaken in everything. So they anticipated and kept the Passover three days earlier, in the eleventh of the moon on Tuesday; for they said, because that all the people go astray after Him, now that we have the opportunity to take Him; and then when all the people have come, we will kill Him before all men for His fault, and this will be known openly, and all the people will turn from after Him. Thus in the night (S. + when Wednesday dawned) Judas delivered up our Lord, but they had given the reward to Judas when he covenanted with them (S. + on the tenth of the moon) on Monday. (Ibid., p.98; S. + refers to added text in the Syrian version which didn’t appear in the Latin version.)
    But Jesus was arrested late on that same third day, which was the nighttime of the eleventh of the month, the sixteenth before the Kalends of April. The dawning of the fourth day of the week was the nighttime of the [Jewish] twelfth day of the month, the fifteenth before the Kalends of April. The daytime of the thirteenth day of the month was the fifth day of the week, but the [ensuing] nighttime was the fourteenth of the month, the fourteenth before the Kalends of April. The daytime of the fourteenth of the month was the eve of the Sabbath, the thirteenth before the Kalends of April. The daytime of the fifteenth of the month was the Sabbath, the twelfth before the Kalends of April. (Panarion, Section IV, series 51,26,3 (Against the sect which does not accept the Gospel according to John, and his Revelation). Epiphanius, Panarion, trans. by Frank Williams, The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis, Books II and III (Sections 47-80, De Fide), (Nag Hammadi and Manichaean Studies). (Leiden, The Netherlands: E.J. Brill, 1994), 57-58.)
    Last edited by Faber; 03-27-2016 at 01:52 AM.

  10. #10
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    From some commentaries:

    The day is breaking, which constitutes, according to John (prima facie), the 14th of Nisan, in the evening of which and commencement of the 15th the Passover would be killed. According to the synoptists, that Passover meal was already over, and the first great day of the feast had commenced - the day of convocation, with sabbatic functions and duties. The statements are apparently in hopeless variance. Many emphasize, exaggerate, and declare insoluble the contradiction, repudiating either the authority of John or that of the synoptists. Meyer and Lucke give their verdict with John, the eye-witness, as against the synoptic tradition. Strauss and Keim, who also hold the invincible discrepancy, lift the synoptic account to a comparatively high state of historic validity, and thereby discredit the authenticity of the Fourth Gospel. (The Pulpit Commentary, Vol. 17 (Gospel of John). ~1889; edited by H.D.M. Spence and Joseph S. Exell; citing Heinrich Meyer and Friedrich Lucke)
    There is here a contradiction for which there is no compromise solution. Either the Synoptic gospels are correct or John is. Scholars are much divided. But it seems most likely that the Synoptics are correct. . . There is no full explanation of this obvious discrepancy; but this seems to us the best. (William Barclay, The Daily Study Bible Series. The Gospel of John, Volume 2. (Westminster: John Knox Press, 1975), 293.)
    [I]t must not be forgotten that over all three narratives extends the great difficulty of explaining “the first day of the feast of unleavened bread” (Matt., Mark) or “the day of unleavened bread” (Luke), and of reconciling the impression undeniably conveyed by them, that the Lord and his disciples ate the usual Passover, with the narrative of St. John, which not only does not sanction, but I believe absolutely excludes such a supposition. I shall give in as short a compass as I can, the various solutions which have been attempted, and the objections to them; fairly confessing that none of them satisfy me, and that at present I have none of my own. (Henry Alford, The Greek Testament, Vol. 1, The Four Gospels. (London: Rivingtons, Waterloo Place; & J. Deighton, Cambridge; 1849), 262.)
    Another solution to the discrepancy is that different calendars were followed. The main calendar used was a lunisolar calendar, but some groups, apparently including the community at Qumran, used a solar calendar of 364 days (cf Schurer 1973-1987:1:587-601; Vanderkam 1992). The main drawback to this solution is the lack of evidence for Jesus’ having followed the solar calendar (cf. Vanderkam 1992:820). The other main proposal is that the Galileans and the Pharisees reckoned days from sunrise to sunrise, while Judeans did so from sunset to sunset. This means the Judeans, including these opponents, would slaughter their lambs late Friday afternoon, whereas Jesus and his disciples had theirs slaughtered late Thursday afternoon (Hoehner 1977:83-90; cf. Morris 1971:782-785). It has also been suggested that the slaughtering of the lambs actually took place over two days because of the volume of lambs involved (Hoehner 1977:84). According to these solutions, Jesus had already eaten Passover, but the opponents have yet to do so. A major drawback to theories of different days for celebrating Passover is “the lack of any hint of such a distinction in the gospels themselves” (Blomberg 1987:176-177). (Rodney A. Whitacre, The IVP New Testament Commentary Series, John. (Westmont, IL: Inter-Varsity Press, 1999), 437-8.)
    Last edited by Faber; 03-27-2016 at 01:53 AM.

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