View Poll Results: What date of the Jewish Month of Nisan was this?

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Thread: On what Jewish date was that?

  1. #11
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    Among the thousands of fragments found in the caves around Qumran, one fragment in particular, given the designation 4Q321, gives more information on the calendar used by the Essenes. It contains twelve months, unnamed but referred to as the first month, the second month, etc. The third, sixth, ninth and twelfth months have 31 days; the other months have 30 days. 364 days total; 52 weeks. The first month corresponds roughly with Nisan, the first month of the Lunar Calendar. It begins every year on a Tuesday evening at sunset. The first day of the first month thus falls on Wednesday every year. Passover is on the 15th day of the first month, also beginning on Tuesday at sunset and continuing to Wednesday at sunset. Waiving of the barley sheaves, instead of being the Sunday immediately after Passover, is on Sunday, the 26th day of the first month, eleven days after Passover. The Festival of the First Fruits is on Sunday, the 15th day of the third month, sixty days after Passover. The Feast of Trumpets is on Wednesday, the first day of the seventh month. The Day of Atonement is on Friday, the 10th day of the seventh month. The Feast of Tabernacles is eight days, beginning on Wednesday, the 15 day of the seventh month, and continuing to the following Wednesday. It was intended to be a perpetual calendar, with none of the feasts days (except the fourth day of Tabernacles) falling on the Sabbath.

    Other documents from the caves made reference to the Jubilee calendar. 4Q320 and 4Q328 give the schedule for the several orders of priests for their weekly service in the temple in accordance with the Jubilee calendar. 4Q326 lists the days of the Sabbaths, Passover and other feast days.

    Annie Jaubert (1912-1980) was a French Bible scholar known for her research on the calendrical teachings of the Hebrew Bible and other ancient Hebrew literature. She offered a solution to the conflicting chronologies of the Passover in the four Gospels.

    In conclusion: it is certain that, at the beginning of the first century, A.D., there existed two liturgical calendars. In one of these the feasts were assigned to days of the lunar month; this was the official calendar, about which we can find information in later rabbinical Judaism. In the second, the feasts always fell on fixed days of the week. The character of this calendar may now be discovered in contemporary Jewish sources. It is witnessed only in its Jubilees-Qumran type; but it is probable that it also existed in modified forms which could have either preserved an intermediary stage of the calendar's development or attempted a certain compromise with the official reckoning. (Annie Jaubert; The Date of the Last Supper. Translated by Isaac Rafferty. (Staten Island, NY: Alba House, 1965), 52.)
    What is interesting is that on this calendar Passover always fell on a Wednesday, two weeks after the spring equinox. In AD 30 the spring equinox took place on Wednesday, March 22 (Julian calendar), just before midnight, local Jerusalem time. If the Essene calendar began the day before, Tuesday March 21 at sunset and continued through Wednesday March 22 until sunset, then the Passover feast according to the calendars of the Essenes, the Damascus Document, the Book of Jubilees and the First Book of Enoch would have taken place on Tuesday night, April 5.

    Following the chronology in Matthew’s Gospel, it was late Monday afternoon when the disciples asked Jesus about future events as they left the temple on their way to Bethany. As they climbed the slope to the Mount of Olives, they looked back at the temple. Jesus warned them of things to come, of the future destruction of the temple, and of His future return to Earth. Then as they continued on their journey to Bethany, He reminded them, “Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.” (Matthew 26:2)
    They would be holding the Passover Seder on Tuesday after sunset, or Wednesday, by ancient Jewish reckoning. That would be Tuesday night before sunset by our reckoning. This is three nights before the official Passover observed by the priests, and two nights before the traditional Maundy Thursday That would be the very night that Jesus and the disciples held their Passover Seder if we adhere to the chronology in the Gospel According to Matthew and allow three days for the trial of Jesus and Herod’s involvement. The very same day that the Didiscalia Apostolorum and Epiphanius’s Panarion say it took place.

    This is definitely NOT to say that I am in agreement with another discussion which claims that Jesus was crucified on Thursday.

  2. #12
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Thank you Faber

    arnoldo rightly cited Luke:
    Luke 22:1 . . . Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
    My study of John and the Law does not lead me to believe that he taught differently than the synoptic accounts. Rather John has been commonly misinterpreted.

    ". . . And it was the preparation of the passover, . . ." -- John 19:14.

    ". . . And in the fifteenth day of this month [is] the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. In the first day [shall be] an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work [therein]: But ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire [for] a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish: And their meat offering [shall be of] flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram; A several tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs: And one goat [for] a sin offering, to make an atonement for you." -- Numbers 28:17-22.

    ". . . And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock [for] a sin offering. And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily [for] a sin offering." -- Ezekiel 45:22-23. Which is similar to Numbers as cited.

    So what I see is that during the feast which by Jesus' day was also called the Passover, a preparation would would be done each day of the feast. So no conflict need be supposed. I stumbled on to this over 40 years ago.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  3. #13
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Technically, the word translated "evening" means "late." I understand it being used meaning past sun down in the contexts.
    ". . . And at even, when the sun did set, . . ." -- Mark 1:32. In any rate it denotes the ending of the current day and the beginning of the next in Jewish reckoning. The Jews would eat the Passover the evening of the 15th of Nisan.
    Let me make sure I have got everything straight now. Suppose the sun set at 6PM as we moderns reckon time. Then 7PM would be an evening time according to the Jews' time-reckoning.
    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

    [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

  4. #14
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    It's a little more complicated. For example, the evening tamid sacrifice took place around 3:00 PM. In a sense, the evening is when the sun was going down, which included late afternoon.

    The daytime was divided into twelve hours, regardless of how long the day was. So we're talking mid-afternoon.

    But in another sense, terms like Exodus 12:6, "in the evening" (KJV) or "at twilight" (NASB) are translations of "beyn ha'arbayim", literally "between the evenings." This is interpreted to mean between the actual sunset and the point where there is no longer any light in the sky.

  5. #15
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    It's a little more complicated. For example, the evening tamid sacrifice took place around 3:00 PM. In a sense, the evening is when the sun was going down, which included late afternoon.

    The daytime was divided into twelve hours, regardless of how long the day was. So we're talking mid-afternoon.

    But in another sense, terms like Exodus 12:6, "in the evening" (KJV) or "at twilight" (NASB) are translations of "beyn ha'arbayim", literally "between the evenings." This is interpreted to mean between the actual sunset and the point where there is no longer any light in the sky.
    1) I forgot that the Jews were apt to be loose compared to us, who likes things to be exact.

    2) Your last sentence is not clear. By "actual sunset" I don't think you mean the sun's astronomical position (90 degrees west azimuth from high noon). From a viewpoint looking west, the sun appears to be higher than its astronomical position because of atmospheric refraction (air bending the sunlight toward the earth
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction
    ).

    "No longer any light in the sky" -- I think you mean sunlight in the sky.
    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

    [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

  6. #16
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
    Let me make sure I have got everything straight now. Suppose the sun set at 6PM as we moderns reckon time. Then 7PM would be an evening time according to the Jews' time-reckoning.
    It has been my understanding the Jewish reckoning days from sunset to sunset. But the hours of a "day" [day light hours] begin with sunrise. So in Jewish reckoning the 6 hour is about noon. [John's account uses Roman reckoning - Though there are those who suppose otherwise. See NASB notes. Like John 19:14.]

    http://www.aish.com/jl/hol/o/48944546.html

    http://www.iahushua.com/ST-RP/twt.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    It's a little more complicated. For example, the evening tamid sacrifice took place around 3:00 PM. In a sense, the evening is when the sun was going down, which included late afternoon.

    The daytime was divided into twelve hours, regardless of how long the day was. So we're talking mid-afternoon.

    But in another sense, terms like Exodus 12:6, "in the evening" (KJV) or "at twilight" (NASB) are translations of "beyn ha'arbayim", literally "between the evenings." This is interpreted to mean between the actual sunset and the point where there is no longer any light in the sky.
    In the modern Jewish translation "between the evenings" is now rendered "afternoon." "Between the evenings" being understood between "noon" and "sunset."

    ". . . And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon. . . ." -- Exodus 12:6.
    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873
    Last edited by 37818; 03-29-2016 at 01:58 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  7. #17
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    In the modern Jewish translation "between the evenings" is now rendered "afternoon." "Between the evenings" being understood between "noon" and "sunset."

    ". . . And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon. . . ." -- Exodus 12:6.
    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873
    That would make sense.

  8. #18
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    It's a little more complicated. For example, the evening tamid sacrifice took place around 3:00 PM. In a sense, the evening is when the sun was going down, which included late afternoon.

    The daytime was divided into twelve hours, regardless of how long the day was. So we're talking mid-afternoon.

    But in another sense, terms like Exodus 12:6, "in the evening" (KJV) or "at twilight" (NASB) are translations of "beyn ha'arbayim", literally "between the evenings." This is interpreted to mean between the actual sunset and the point where there is no longer any light in the sky.
    I thought it was said, at some point, that this could have been a Jubilee year? Textual and practical considerations


    other articles:

    Are there any efforts to bring the two Easters together? - World Council of Churches
    Easter controversy -Modern calls for a reform of the date of Easter
    Eve of Passover on Shabbat


    Special notes: The sacrificial animal - Passover sacrifice

    The sacrificial animal, which was either a lamb or goat, was necessarily a male, one year old, and without blemish. Each family or society offered one animal together, which did not require the "semikah" (laying on of hands), although it was obligatory to determine who were to take part in the sacrifice that the killing might take place with the proper intentions. Only those who were circumcised and clean before the Law might participate, and they were forbidden to have leavened food in their possession during the act of killing the paschal lamb. The animal was slain on the eve of the Passover, on the afternoon of the 14th of Abib,[2] after the Tamid sacrifice had been killed, i.e., at three o'clock, or, in case the eve of the Passover fell on Friday, at two.[3]

    noting also - Jubilee Bible 2000:
    "On the fourteenth of the first month between the two evenings is the LORD's passover." Leviticus 23:5


    Zmanim (Hebrew: זְמַנִּים‎, literally "times", singular zman) are the specific times of the day with applications in Jewish law.

    In Jewish law, a calendar day is defined as running from "evening" to "evening." This is based on the repetition of the phrase "... and there was evening, and there was morning ..."—evening preceding morning—in the account of creation in Genesis.[1]
    Additionally, Jewish law requires certain activities to be undertaken "during the day"—or at a certain time during the day—while other activities are to be undertaken "at night"—or at a certain time during the night.

    For either purpose, the status of the twilight hours just after sunset or just before sunrise is ambiguous. Judaism provides its own definitions for this period; at the same time, various rabbinic authorities differ on just how those definitions are to be applied for different purposes.

  9. #19
    tWebber
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    The practice, as recorded in the Mishnah (Pes. 9:5), is that only Pesaḥ Miẓrayim ("Passover of Egypt") required the setting aside of the lamb four days before the festival, the sprinkling of the blood on lintel and doorposts, and that the lamb be eaten in "haste." The Mishnah (Pes. 10:5) explains the commands of the lamb sacrifice and the eating of *matzah ("unleavened bread") and maror ("bitter herbs") as follows: the lamb is offered because God "passed over" (pasaḥ); the unleavened bread is eaten because God redeemed the Israelites from Egypt (Ex. 12:39); and the bitter herbs, because the Egyptians embittered their lives (Ex. 1:14).
    Passover sacrifice
    and now read this:

    The sacrifice which the Israelites offered at the command of God during the night before the Exodus from Egypt, and which they ate with special ceremonies according to divine direction. The blood of this sacrifice sprinkled on the door-posts of the Israelites was to be a sign to the angel of death, when passing through the land to slay the first-born of the Egyptians that night, that he should pass by the houses of the Israelites (Ex. xii. 1-23). This is called in the Mishnah the "Egyptian Passover sacrifice" ("Pesaḥ Miẓrayim"; Pes. ix. 5). It was ordained, furthermore (Ex. xii. 24-27), that this observance should be repeated annually for all time. This so-called "Pesaḥ Dorot," the Passover of succeeding generations (Pes. l.c.), differs in many respects from the Pesaḥ Miẓrayim. Passover


    So the lamb was prepared four days prior - and was eaten in haste? Pesaḥ Miẓrayim. However, the observance is called, "Pesah Dorot"? Correct?
    Last edited by Marta; 04-07-2016 at 01:30 AM.

  10. #20
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
    Confusing. Don't you mean sundown? The word "evening" is a span of time, not a moment, right?
    Sundown is not the point.

    In clear weather two stars have to be visible (can be planets rather than fixed stars).

    Obviously, that is a thing you notice when it has gone on some time, a few minutes or more. Usually.

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