A Conversion Story

[Outis]

I'm not twisting your words, I'm following them to their logical conclusions.

No, OB, You are not. The _specific_ issue here is what I objected to as ludicrous. I objected to courage being simultaneously defined as two opposite concepts. I have not commented on the idea of a common concept of courage: my objection was to these two examples being applicable.

The more general issue here is that you refuse to see anything outside of your own pre-supposed context. That's your choice, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, that I am aware of. But it does mean that, as long as you choose to do so, you will not understand what I am actually saying. You will only understand what you think about my words.

[whag]

I do know of several people who condemn the Christian insistence upon "turning the other cheek" as cowardice.

Even some Christians here regard the precept as applicable only in a situation like ancient Palestine, or the Jim Crow south. meaning they believe a literal interpretation of it would constitute something like cowardice.
It's a malleable precept.

[OingoBoingo]

No, OB, You are not. The _specific_ issue here is what I objected to as ludicrous. I objected to courage being simultaneously defined as two opposite concepts. I have not commented on the idea of a common concept of courage: my objection was to these two examples being applicable.

But you have acknowledged a common concept of cowardice. That it isn't praised.

The more general issue here is that you refuse to see anything outside of your own pre-supposed context. That's your choice, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, that I am aware of. But it does mean that, as long as you choose to do so, you will not understand what I am actually saying. You will only understand what you think about my words.

I haven't stated "my" context. I'm still trying to figure out yours.

[Outis]

But you have acknowledged a common concept of cowardice. That it isn't praised.

I have not acknowledged a "common concept." I've acknowledge only that I've never heard of a culture that says "We think cowardice is tops."

I haven't stated "my" context.

So your appeal to "universals" is not an appeal to Platonic forms, or a related concept?

I'm still trying to figure out yours.

If I have the Latin correct, "Quaesto omnibus."

[OingoBoingo]

I have not acknowledged a "common concept." I've acknowledge only that I've never heard of a culture that says "We think cowardice is tops."

So, no commonality that you're aware of except that commonality.

So your appeal to "universals" is not an appeal to Platonic forms, or a related concept?

Maybe you're confusing me with Seer. I haven't made any appeals.

[Outis]

So, no commonality that you're aware of except that commonality.

Is that commonality, or simple utilitarianism?

Maybe you're confusing me with Seer. I haven't made any appeals.

THe quote in question is thus:

Looks like you're pretty sure a concept of cowardice is universal, just not courage, which is a little strange.

And I see that you are, indeed, simply using the word "universal," not appealing to the Platonic concept. My apologies for the confusion.

[OingoBoingo]

Is that commonality, or simple utilitarianism?

According to your view, to answer that we would need to see how courage/cowardice is being defined. That's why I asked you how you knew you've never seen cowardice praised in any culture. How can you know such a thing if there is such drastic variation in definition between cultures that the meaning of concepts like "courage" or "cowardice" becomes ludicrous to outsiders? Were you limiting your answer to only those cultural definitions you are personally familiar with? Do you believe it plausible that there are cultures that praise cowardice?

And I see that you are, indeed, simply using the word "universal," not appealing to the Platonic concept. My apologies for the confusion.

No problem.

[Outis]

According to your view, to answer that we would need to see how courage/cowardice is being defined.

If I were making a formal survey, yes, that would be necessary. As I'm simply making a casual statement that I don't know of any such culture, I am simply commenting on the state of my knowledge, not on the state of cultural views of cowardice, however defined.

That's why I asked you how you knew you've never seen cowardice praised in any culture.

I answered based on my knowledge of specific cultures. If you took my answer as exhaustive, that was an error: it was not exhaustive, nor did I phrase it as such.

Do you believe it plausible that there are cultures that praise cowardice?

Plausible? Perhaps. I would have to see the culture in question before answering, or do a comprehensive survey of cultures, to have enough data.

[Doug Shaver]

What would qualify as "substantial" in a conversion story?

For me, it would be a story by a former skeptic who was both scientifically and philosophically well informed, in which the skeptic related their discovery of a cogent argument for the truth of Christianity.

[whag]

For me, it would be a story by a former skeptic who was both scientifically and philosophically well informed, in which the skeptic related their discovery of a cogent argument for the truth of Christianity.

I'd like to see a list of such former skeptics. I mean hardcore skeptics, not the flabby Kirk Cameron/Lee Strobel variety who don't realize how softcore they were before conversion.